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aphid_licker posted:Yeah sorry, displaying a "real desire to kill" people is kind of alarming So I find this particularly wierd for dogs. The US military took civilian dogs for the war, and then just gave them back. My grandfather's childhood dog tippy was taken by the coast guard for example, and then given back after the war.   However some dogs were used in combat, and attacked people. For example chips here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chips_(dog) quote:Later that year, during the invasion of Sicily, Chips and his handler were pinned down on the beach by an Italian machine-gun team. Chips broke from his handler and jumped into the pillbox, attacking the gunners. The four crewmen were forced to leave the pillbox and surrendered to US troops. In the fight, he sustained a scalp wound and powder burns. Later that day, he helped take ten Italians prisoner After the war as far as I can tell they were given back to their families, which uh... I mean that's a lot for a dog to process. At one moment you're at sicily ripping the throats of italian soldiers, and then you're back with little timmy in the suburbs.
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Nov 3, 2021 01:10
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Polyakov posted:Yes but geographically Romania is far more relevant to the USSR to occupy and reshape in its image as it lies on the invaders route to Russia. Nobody is launching a major offensive through Finland by surprise. The effects on those nations i think is clearly far more representative of whether the communists came in and hosed around for 50 years or not. Oh, but the Soviets did try very hard to bring ‘socialism’ to Finland. In fact, Stalin wanted to incorporate Finland into the Soviet Union directly. The difference really was that it was strategically advantageous to war with Germany to make peace with Finland, and after the war, despite the non-aligned status and the findalization of Finland, the Soviets did not occupy Finland. By 1946 Stalin knew the Western Allies (at least the United Kingdom and France) had very nearly gone to war to defend Finland in 1940; and Stalin knew too much overt action in Finland could result in a war with the United States and Great Britain that Stalin absolutely did not want to fight at the immediate conclusion of the Second World War. By the time he may have been willing to fight that war MAD was a thing, and some have argued that Stalin’s ultimate willingness to ignore this led directly to his death.
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Nov 3, 2021 01:44
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aphid_licker posted:Serious lols that these guys were then just released back into the population, if they survived  What the gently caress? They're soldiers, not convicts, many of which were drafted into the Army with no choice in the matter. What are you even proposing, that the Army just arbitrarily lock up thousands of fathers, sons, and husbands after the war on the sole basis that their commanders thought they were too enthusiastic about killing Nazis? Like, think about what you just said, good lord dude.
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Nov 3, 2021 01:59
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Being generous, “just released” could be in opposition to “returned to civilian life with ample access to counseling and mental health services” and not like “lock them in prison”. What you imagine the alternative proposal to be changes the meaning a lot.
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Nov 3, 2021 02:17
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Xiahou Dun posted:Being generous, “just released” could be in opposition to “returned to civilian life with ample access to counseling and mental health services” and not like “lock them in prison”. What you imagine the alternative proposal to be changes the meaning a lot. There was some degree of social services for returning veterans, or at least enough so that this incredible article could be written: 
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Nov 3, 2021 02:42
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There was some degree of social services for returning veterans, or at least enough so that this incredible article could be written: Now to find an article from a War of 1812 vet about how the ACW guys had it easy.
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Nov 3, 2021 02:47
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German tanks for 1946 Big articles queue: HMC M7 Priest, GMC M12, GMC M40/M43, ISU-152, AMR 35 ZT, Soviet post-war tank building plans, T-100Y and SU-14-1, Object 430, Pz.Kpfw.35(t), T-60 tanks in combat, SU-76M modernizations, Panhard 178, 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf), 43M Zrínyi, Medium Tank M46, Modernization of the M48 to the M60 standard, German tank building trends at the end of WW2, Pz.Kpfw.III/IV, E-50 and E-75 development, Pre-war and early war British tank building, BT-7M/A-8 trials, Jagdtiger suspension, Light Tank T37, Light Tank T41, T-26-6 (SU-26), Voroshilovets tractor trials, Israeli armour 1948–1982, T-64's composite armour, Evolution of German tank observation devices, Oerlikon and Solothurn anti-tank rifles Available for request (others' articles):  Shashmurin's career T-55 underwater driving equipment T-34 tanks with M-17 engines ISU-152 Wartime and post-war anti-tank hand grenades  King Tigers in Hungary German King Tiger losses in December of 1944 in Hungary Small articles queue: AA machine guns on tanks, IS-3 pike nose, T-34 with S-54 gun Small articles available: linked because the list is too long New small articles: GMC T70 Pz.Kpfw.II Ausf.c BT-2 tanks on the Leningrad Front Captured Pz.Kpfw.38(t) tanks in the Red Army Matilda III
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Nov 3, 2021 03:18
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Ensign Expendable posted:T-34 with S-54 gun If that's the long barreled 76mm gun in WoT, I Would Like To Know More.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:02
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Xerxes17 posted:If that's the long barreled 76mm gun in WoT, I Would Like To Know More. It is, and it's on the list!
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Nov 3, 2021 04:12
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Cyrano4747 posted:Now to find an article from a War of 1812 vet about how the ACW guys had it easy. Kids these days don't even get shanghai'd to go fight fellow Christians on the way to the real war any more. In my day, you killed whoever the Venetians told you to kill so you could kill the people you wanted to kill--that's just how it was.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:23
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piL posted:Kids these days don't even get shanghai'd to go fight fellow Christians on the way to the real war any more. In my day, you killed whoever the Venetians told you to kill so you could kill the people you wanted to kill--that's just how it was. Fourth Crusade really didn't come out of nowhere and wasn't much of a coincidence really as the distrust had been running deep for centuries with a lot of bad blood between the east and west even further before 1204, not to mention outright hostilities between Byzantium and Norman Sicily as well as the Italian maritime republics, while at the same time Byzantium itself was becoming increasingly militarily dependent on Latin mercenaries for defence on land while Italians took control shipping and commerce. Frederick Barbarossa came close to attacking Constantinople during the Third Crusade, especially as events such as the Massacre of the Latins in 1182 had really driven relations to an all time low.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:51
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Randarkman posted:Fourth Crusade really didn't come out of nowhere and wasn't much of a coincidence really as the distrust had been running deep for centuries with a lot of bad blood between the east and west even further before 1204, not to mention outright hostilities between Byzantium and Norman Sicily as well as the Italian maritime republics, while at the same time Byzantium itself was becoming increasingly militarily dependent on Latin mercenaries for defence on land while Italians took control shipping and commerce. Frederick Barbarossa came close to attacking Constantinople during the Third Crusade, especially as events such as the Massacre of the Latins in 1182 had really driven relations to an all time low. Enrico Dandolo certainly didn't see it coming
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Nov 3, 2021 04:53
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The video i linked earlier has a guy, Joe Gibbs, that can draw one, and he shoots a "average" (~150lb) warbow for the tests, and you can see his body contort to be able to manage the force he has to exert on the bow and string. It looks nothing like a normal archery stance, and it actually makes some of the depictions of archers from the period make more sense. The stance makes me think of virgin crossbow vs. chad longbow
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Nov 3, 2021 05:15
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Weren't there studies showing that the slow pace it took to get soldiers back to the States after WW2 helped them reintegrate into civilian society better? Like they went through a bunch of standdown camps, and then a long boat journey before they got back. Contrasted with the Vietnam war where they could go from combat to being back in the States as a civilian in something like a day.
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Nov 3, 2021 05:24
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Randarkman posted:Fourth Crusade really didn't come out of nowhere and wasn't much of a coincidence really as the distrust had been running deep for centuries with a lot of bad blood between the east and west even further before 1204, not to mention outright hostilities between Byzantium and Norman Sicily as well as the Italian maritime republics, while at the same time Byzantium itself was becoming increasingly militarily dependent on Latin mercenaries for defence on land while Italians took control shipping and commerce. Frederick Barbarossa came close to attacking Constantinople during the Third Crusade, especially as events such as the Massacre of the Latins in 1182 had really driven relations to an all time low. Didn't expect doge apologism tbh Edit: In my day we fought North African mountain-climbing generals attacking from Western Europe with elephants. piL fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:07
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piL posted:Didn't expect doge apologism tbh very serene, much horses, deus vult
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Nov 3, 2021 06:53
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There was some degree of social services for returning veterans, or at least enough so that this incredible article could be written: Do you know what paper (or papers) that article appeared in and when?
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Nov 3, 2021 07:27
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Taerkar posted:Might also be an effect of battlefield stress. Load too little powder. Forget you already loaded and start over again, completely forget the powder and just ram the ball down, etc... I work at a historical reenactment centre and do this very often - with the coffee machine. Can't the motherfucker have a light to tell me if I already poured water in?? Moonwolf posted:He also says he can do 160 lb draw 'all day' and can go up to 200 lb pull for about 6 shots before wiping himself out. My rear end. Shooting 160 for a day would permanently injure most modern people - I mighta coulda sorty buy it since he seems like a goon who shoots bows all day, but ehh... I don't know a single guy who have fired that kind of weight regularly, and not have to go to physical therapy for the rest of their lives (and a bunch who have.). Tias fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 08:43
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Are black powder artillerists likely to have had TBIs? Or did they stand far enough away?
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Nov 3, 2021 09:54
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The Lone Badger posted:Are black powder artillerists likely to have had TBIs? Or did they stand far enough away? WHAT
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Nov 3, 2021 10:23
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Nenonen posted:You stuff it into a jumpsuit and top it off with a helmet, carry that into the cockpit of a fighter and clear it for take off. USS Texas? I didn't know they stacked poo poo that high!
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Nov 3, 2021 11:13
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The Lone Badger posted:Are black powder artillerists likely to have had TBIs? Or did they stand far enough away? Let me see if I follow the fibre of your fabric: Are you asking if BP artillerists made booms so big that it penetrated their skull and scrambled their brains? Because I don't think so, although eye and ear injury( especially varying degrees of deafness), was common.
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Nov 3, 2021 11:25
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Tias posted:Let me see if I follow the fibre of your fabric: Are you asking if BP artillerists made booms so big that it penetrated their skull and scrambled their brains? Because I don't think so, although eye and ear injury( especially varying degrees of deafness), was common. Pretty much yeah. Were the overpressure waves intense enough to cause cumulative brain injury over a period.
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Nov 3, 2021 11:53
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
Realistically obviously there's nothing that could've been done with the state of psychological / psychiatric science at the time, or today, but it seems like a psychopathy indicator and that it should be correlated with violent criminal behavior? It seems more likely to me that a knack for killing is a result of preexisting emotional makeup, and thus unlikely that in any other army they would not have displayed the same knack, rather than them just having it bc of hating Nazis so much.
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Nov 3, 2021 12:02
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Correlation IS NOT causation. And consider shutting up about this.
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Nov 3, 2021 12:07
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Military soldiers who were great killers are clearly all crazy and none of them ever took prisoners because that would be considered too soft. This is also explained by all the ex-military mass murderers the US was plagued with, and indeed was prevalent in all allied nations, post world war 2.
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Nov 3, 2021 12:23
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aphid_licker posted:Realistically obviously there's nothing that could've been done with the state of psychological / psychiatric science at the time, or today, but it seems like a psychopathy indicator and that it should be correlated with violent criminal behavior? I get what you're saying and I can imagine that there may be a higher than normal distribution of abnormal psychology among guys who are especially "good at war", but I suspect most of those guys -particularly in a war where a whole society is mobilized- are just adapting to the circumstances and won't have an unusual life once they return to more normal circumstances. In any case, it might have been hard to discern post hoc what was pre-existing and what was caused by the widespread trauma inflicted by the experience of war, which I suspect have had a larger effect post-war.
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Nov 3, 2021 12:34
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We're not talking about like one guy who's a psycho here, we're really talking about say, 10% of the population who have a higher than normal propensity for emotional detachment in combat situations, with the boundaries fuzzy beyond that. If you bring in e.g. the Milgram experiment, you've got up to potentially a *majority* of the population capable of being 'killers' in the right situation. I mean okay yes, there's potential conclusions that can be drawn in terms of how to make society less violent or whatever, but this isn't pre-crime or something.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:01
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Fangz posted:We're not talking about like one guy who's a psycho here, we're really talking about say, 10% of the population who have a higher than normal propensity for emotional detachment in combat situations, with the boundaries fuzzy beyond that. If you bring in e.g. the Milgram experiment, you've got up to potentially a *majority* of the population capable of being 'killers' in the right situation. There's a fair bit of literature on the Holocaust that specifically points to how there isn't really a good predictor in civilian life for who is going to be the guy who gets really enthusiastic about being a trigger puller in a genocide. Ordinary Men most notably, and that's a good starting point if you want to chase citations.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:17
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Haha  Tias posted:My rear end. Shooting 160 for a day would permanently injure most modern people - I mighta coulda sorty buy it since he seems like a goon who shoots bows all day, but ehh... I don't know a single guy who have fired that kind of weight regularly, and not have to go to physical therapy for the rest of their lives (and a bunch who have.). I've read that they've excavated battlefields in England and found that the remains of bowmen tended to have hosed up shoulder joints. Scratch Monkey fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 14:01
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Scratch Monkey posted:I've read that they've excavated battlefields in England and found that the remains of bowmen tended to have hosed up shoulder joints. I wonder if the better nutrition and resulting generally larger size of modern men would make this less of a factor.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:25
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Military soldiers who were great killers are clearly all crazy and none of them ever took prisoners because that would be considered too soft. This is also explained by all the ex-military mass murderers the US was plagued with, and indeed was prevalent in all allied nations, post world war 2. Well wouldn't we see more the opposite, a significant drop off post-war as the type of person who finds murder easy would, in a war, be much more likely to die in a combat scenario than they would murdering people who can't fight back? The US at least has a homicide trough from 1932 to 1972, but honestly this seems like a fairly weak explanation mostly because it starts before any veterancy effect. But very importantly there is really no agreement among experts in macro trends in criminology. There's been a general decrease since 1990, very sharply in the US but not exclusively (see South Africa), and there's a dozen theories that all have a ton of problems.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:30
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Sorry, I should've been more sarcastic.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:35
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Gort posted:I wonder if the better nutrition and resulting generally larger size of modern men would make this less of a factor. As with all military development it would just be seen as a possibility to make bigger, heavier pull bows. Always push the envelope.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:38
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Randarkman posted:Fourth Crusade really didn't come out of nowhere and wasn't much of a coincidence really as the distrust had been running deep for centuries with a lot of bad blood between the east and west even further before 1204, not to mention outright hostilities between Byzantium and Norman Sicily as well as the Italian maritime republics, while at the same time Byzantium itself was becoming increasingly militarily dependent on Latin mercenaries for defence on land while Italians took control shipping and commerce. Frederick Barbarossa came close to attacking Constantinople during the Third Crusade, especially as events such as the Massacre of the Latins in 1182 had really driven relations to an all time low. True but they also spent a bunch of time killing Croatians too.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:56
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Feeling really comfortable with this "combat veterans are violent psychos" talk, thanks.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:05
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Valtonen posted:As with all military development it would just be seen as a possibility to make bigger, heavier pull bows. Always push the envelope. The rate of fire of the 5.56mm bodkin head arrow might make it more popular than the original 7.62mm
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Nov 3, 2021 15:10
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Cessna posted:Feeling really comfortable with this "combat veterans are violent psychos" talk, thanks. please dont make inferences about me joining up with an organization to kill people by making it sound like i want to kill people
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Nov 3, 2021 15:11
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Fangz posted:We're not talking about like one guy who's a psycho here, we're really talking about say, 10% of the population who have a higher than normal propensity for emotional detachment in combat situations, with the boundaries fuzzy beyond that. If you bring in e.g. the Milgram experiment, you've got up to potentially a *majority* of the population capable of being 'killers' in the right situation. Anecdotally I saw some guys posting in GiP that behaviors and emotional responses that they later realized were results of their heavy childhood trauma helped them overperform in dismount combat situations. Cyrano4747 posted:There's a fair bit of literature on the Holocaust that specifically points to how there isn't really a good predictor in civilian life for who is going to be the guy who gets really enthusiastic about being a trigger puller in a genocide. Ordinary Men most notably, and that's a good starting point if you want to chase citations. I don't think that it's the same mechanism as in the Einsatzgruppe killers, since those were conforming and thereby specifically avoiding taking personal risks, and the combat overperformers are taking additional risks and displaying initiative. It seems likely that these two personalities would translate to different types of individual risk situations for becoming delinquent as civilians.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:13
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My 100% anecdotal observations: When you're in actual no-poo poo contact, there are basically 3 kinds of soldier: 1) those who go about their business relatively effectively, as they've been trained and so on; 2) those who can't really handle it, and either work hard to avoid anything dangerous and don't do basic tasks when in contact; and 3) Rambos who are out there to win medals. #1 above constitutes the vast majority...probably a solid 8 out of 10. The other two groups are equally distributed. Good leadership tends to reign both 2s and 3s in pretty effectively as time goes on, and in the end, I'd guess you're looking at a very small number of each. The thing is, the folks in group #1 do the vast majority of damage and inflict most of the casualties on the enemy. It isn't because they have some sort of bloodlust or something...I think the real reason is they know their best chances of getting out of the engagement unhurt is ending said engagement as quickly and decisively as possible. They also tend to be pretty enthusiastic about "winning" tactical engagements and are what I'm sure would seem callous to civilians about casualties they inflict. I don't think any of this is a symptom or indicator of mental illness. I have no idea how closely this aligns with WWII-era armies and soldiers, but I'd personally be very surprised if well-trained/experienced units were substantially different. Giant divisions of conscripts are probably a very different animal though.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:13
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