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Booties posted:BUT VIDEO GAMES ARE ART! No they aren't
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Nov 3, 2021 18:00
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| # ? May 26, 2024 21:19 |
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Video games are art, they're just very bad art.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:04
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Barudak posted:Who the hell is lauding Nier Automata as art over my main man over here Barbie Super Model a game that crushes any and all aspirations one may have for the glamorous life of a super model by showing you the drudgery and crass capitalism that poison the luster. When Oskar Schindler broke down in tears, I thought I felt the pinnacle of human emotion, the terrible plight of an oppressed people on the shoulders of a man who could only do so much, but I was wrong, so wrong, because in American Girl: Julie Finds A Way, when that plucky little girl went through so much and finally, finally found a way, my heart was split in two.. It brims with such sorrow, that through finding a way, she also found a way out of my life, and yet, it swells with love, for Julie, and her train, and the adventures she will go on to have throughout eternity outside the gaze of my watchful eyes. Within my soul, I feel the choir singing... Beethoven's immortal Ode to Joy... where all men... become brothers.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:05
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If Rothko can have a chapel clearly bad art has no limitations
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Nov 3, 2021 18:06
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I fail to see the comparison between automata and I am legend.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:07
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https://twitter.com/HardDriveMag/status/1455520066594906112
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Nov 3, 2021 18:09
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Gaius Marius posted:I fail to see the comparison between automata and I am legend.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:10
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It also did essentially the same thing Spec Ops: The Line did which was try to make the player feel emotionally responsible for the digital, pre-programmed lives of simulated designated enemies in a videogame by... telling you how much they didn't deserve to die after you killed them? But because their inclusion in that game and that sort of storytelling means that the purpose of their entire existence is to be killed to drive an emotional point, you were helping them fill their existence's only purpose by killing them, which is what their creators intended for them, so...? I don't know, both of those beloved games totally failed to resonate with me because they work under the presupposition that the player can't differentiate intelligent life from simulated pixels with rudimentary AI.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:19
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deep dish peat moss posted:It also did essentially the same thing Spec Ops: The Line did which was try to make the player feel emotionally responsible for the digital, pre-programmed lives of simulated designated enemies in a videogame by... telling you how much they didn't deserve to die after you killed them? But because their inclusion in that game and that sort of storytelling means that the purpose of their entire existence is to be killed to drive an emotional point, you were helping them fill their existence's only purpose by killing them, which is what their creators intended for them, so...? I don't know, both of those beloved games totally failed to resonate with me because they work under the presupposition that the player can't differentiate intelligent life from simulated pixels with rudimentary AI. Do you just not understand the idea of a written story? I won't defend the game story (it's boring) but saying you don't by into it because the characters are pixels is like saying you don't buy into a book because it's all just words and lines anyway, man.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:23
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deep dish peat moss posted:
Well one the humans were gone before the robots ever showed up. Two everything else you said is wrong except the machines having their own society.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:28
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satanic splash-back posted:Do you just not understand the idea of a written story? I won't defend the game story (it's boring) but saying you don't by into it because the characters are pixels is like saying you don't buy into a book because it's all just words and lines anyway, man. It's not about the story being "bad" so to speak, it's about the fact that both of them are lauded as these deeply resonant emotional experiences that transcend the art of videogames but... what? Spec Ops: The Line is a pretty standard and generic military shooter where you move through linear levels and kill all of the enemies on the way. Sometimes an event will come up where there are like a lot of enemies in a building and your handler says "Press X to use White Phosphorous grenades to kill them all!" and then you Press X and the enemies all die, and then there's some voice lines about how terrible you (the player) are for just following orders like that and allowing all of those people to suffer with horrible painful weaponry. Many players think the game is deeply emotionally resonant because doing that made them feel deep emotional anguish and regret and it made them question their willingness to just follow orders and question their place in the story, but are you loving kidding me? Maybe it's because I've been playing videogames since the 8-bit era but I'm sorry, you can't give me a videogame where my linear, must-be-completed-to-progress task is "Do X" and then tell me I'm a terrible person for Doing X and expect it to actually hook me emotionally. It's not like I had a choice, the game isn't designed to let me find a peaceful, non-war-crimes way to resolve the conflict. But here's the thing - I followed those orders because it's the only way to progress in the videogame, which is a simulated environment with no repercussions, where I do not need to worry about harming anyone because there's no one to harm. So okay you can have a story about my character feeling bad about it but that's an entirely different kind of experience and narrative that is best not told in a videogame, because it's a story about a specific predetermined character and their emotions instead of about the player. Gaius Marius posted:Well one the humans were gone before the robots ever showed up. Two everything else you said is wrong except the machines having their own society. Maybe the game should have told its story sometime within its runtime instead of requiring 4 repeat near-identical playthroughs to find that out, lmao deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 18:31
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satanic splash-back posted:Do you just not understand the idea of a written story? I won't defend the game story (it's boring) but saying you don't by into it because the characters are pixels is like saying you don't buy into a book because it's all just words and lines anyway, man. A written story is linear and the reader is just along for the ride. Making a video game where you're supposed to feel bad about doing things but not giving you any alternatives to doing the things is stupid and is yet another example of why video game stories are the worst, always, no exceptions.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:34
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Perhaps an actual unpopular opinion but I don't think stories need to have player choice or necessarily center player agency to still work well in video games. To be clear I have never played Spec Ops: The Line and have precisely zero opinion on whether it does its thing well or not, so this isn't about Spec Ops itself, but just a general statement. I think that there's more you can do with interactivity in storytelling than just narrative choice or a story driven entirely by player action. I've written a lot about it before but games have an opportunity to put you in the shoes of (and in the head of) a predetermined character and make you identify as them in the game world, whether or not you get to choose their narrative actions, and that's something games can use to great effect. Mother 3 is usually my go-to example for this. It's hard to talk a lot about since I never want to spoil it but also not a ton of people have played it, but it does some very clever things with how silent protagonists work and works well to get you into Lucas's head and identifying with him so that the narrative's later gut-punches hit even harder. You don't get to make any choices in the story but the player still ends up inhabiting Lucas's identity and feeling closer to the tragedies that unfold as a result. Again this isn't to say Spec Ops is good or anything, I haven't played it so I have no idea.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:37
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Oh I absolutely agree and you're right, a game doesn't need a player-centric story and telling linear stories in videogames is good and fine. It's specifically the story of "You need to question what you've done! How could you just follow orders?!" in a medium where there is literally nothing to do except follow the developer's orders that is dumb.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:39
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Yeah you gotta be really careful when you're writing a story like that in a game. There's potential to make that lack of choice part of the message--it sounds like Spec Ops goes as far as "you did a bad thing" but never engages with "and we didn't give you a choice," but perhaps it could have and it would've been stronger for it. It doesn't necessarily have to go full "would you kindly" or anything but there was probably potential there to go further.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:41
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satanic splash-back posted:Do you just not understand the idea of a written story? I won't defend the game story (it's boring) but saying you don't by into it because the characters are pixels is like saying you don't buy into a book because it's all just words and lines anyway, man. It would be like saying the reader is responsible for all those people that die in the book, you awful awful person for having read the book and progressed the storyline, you monster. It's not that the lives are fictional, it's that blame is trying to be shifted onto the player/reader, which is nonsensical. If that game (which I have not played, but loving everyone talks about so cultural osmosis has happened) instead showcased the horrors of war to make the player feel sympathetic, that's one thing. But by making the player pull the trigger with zero autonomy it really removes any pathos that they might have had.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:41
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Serephina posted:But by making the player pull the trigger with zero autonomy it really removes any pathos that they might have had. Yet weirdly, at least one other game actually pulls this off in a way that's really memorable and effective: Metal Gear Solid 3. Granted the scale is much smaller, but it uses the "you have to pull the trigger yourself and the game will not advance unless you do, you have no choice" thing very effectively. It does this, of course, by creating a scenario where the character also has no choice and doing the work to bring the player along for the ride so the player identifies strongly with the character. But that really just goes to highlight that the problem is usually not the premise or the core idea of something, but the execution of it. I imagine for every storytelling choice that doesn't work in Game X there's an example where it did work in Game Y.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:43
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Serephina posted:It would be like saying the reader is responsible for all those people that die in the book, you awful awful person for having read the book and progressed the storyline, you monster. It's not that the lives are fictional, it's that blame is trying to be shifted onto the player/reader, which is nonsensical. If that game (which I have not played, but loving everyone talks about so cultural osmosis has happened) instead showcased the horrors of war to make the player feel sympathetic, that's one thing. But by making the player pull the trigger with zero autonomy it really removes any pathos that they might have had. Ah, but would those imaginary lives have ended if there had been no one there to observe it? I am very deep and xen.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:44
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I hope so death to video games and all who live within them
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Nov 3, 2021 18:45
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And while we're here, this is also the primary topic of my favorite Videogames-are-art title: The Stanley Parable. It seems almost pretentious/preaching at times, but by the end of it I was really enjoying the main point that they where hammering at, the topic of player autonomy and the illusion of choices in the medium.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:46
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FoolyCharged posted:I'm gonna be honest. It wasn't the timers for me it was everything else. Xcom 2 had pretty much all of xcom 1's systems but they also made you juggle: The opening of XCOM2 with the expansions is such a tedious barrage of events, cutscenes and forced story missions dragging you in ten different directions at any given time, and it takes so long for this beginning phase to get over with, that I consider the game in its current state unplayable, even before getting into the mess of haphazardly piled on mechanics that often seem to be redundant at best.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:50
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deep dish peat moss posted:Maybe the game should have told its story sometime within its runtime instead of requiring 4 repeat near-identical playthroughs to find that out, lmao It's 1 "identical (it's not, mostly because it's quite shorter)" additional playthrough, and then 2 more that are completely different since they start from different starting points with -1- alternate ending you can replay straight from the end. But I guess that's the same as 4 identical playthroughs yes Popoto fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 18:53
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steinrokkan posted:The opening of XCOM2 with the expansions is such a tedious barrage of events, cutscenes and forced story missions dragging you in ten different directions at any given time, and it takes so long for this beginning phase to get over with, that I consider the game in its current state unplayable, even before getting into the mess of haphazardly piled on mechanics that often seem to be redundant at best. I got completely turned off X-Com 2 JUST because of a tiny little detail that I hate with the passion of an idiot: the fact they introduced phone calls from the three main baddies in the expansion is just so loving annoying to the mood. Despite all of XCOM2 quality of life improvements, I instead replay XCOM:EW when I feel like replaying the series. The vibe is just such a much better package, the soundtrack, the slow buildup, the crumbling defensive position (instead of the "empire buildup" that is more what XCOM2 does), etc. It's the same reason of the historical Total Wars, Attila has a earned a placed at the top for me: it just oozes with mood my depressed brain adores.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:57
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Whenever I see a videogames-art argument I quickly scan for bad analogies before I continue reading. In a way reading forum posts is an art in itself.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:18
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Barudak posted:If Rothko can have a chapel clearly bad art has no limitations for real. Rothko sucks poo poo. congrats on using the mspaint bucket tool irl, you're a loving genius Rothko. idiot.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:21
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someday we'll get an art thread that doesn't immediately veer intro drawing balls edit: I posted this in the wrong thread but since it's about as relevant to video games as anything else I post in this thread I'm just gonna leave it
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Nov 3, 2021 19:23
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steinrokkan posted:The opening of XCOM2 with the expansions is such a tedious barrage of events, cutscenes and forced story missions dragging you in ten different directions at any given time Not about XCOM2, but I hate this about a lot of games and DLC now. Buy something, load it up, have to figure out which items and quests that it showers upon me at the beginning are from the dlc. Just tons of pop ups telling you like, GO CHECK OUT THE WIZARDS KEEP, GO CHECK OUT THE MERMAIDS COVE, while you're still in a starting town.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:25
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I've found the best way to handle is (thing) art discussions is to tell everyone involved to pull their heads out of their asses. They can see much clearer after that and realize that none of the argument mattered in the slightest.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:26
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Capital Letdown posted:Not about XCOM2, but I hate this about a lot of games and DLC now. Buy something, load it up, have to figure out which items and quests that it showers upon me at the beginning are from the dlc. Just tons of pop ups telling you like, GO CHECK OUT THE WIZARDS KEEP, GO CHECK OUT THE MERMAIDS COVE, while you're still in a starting town. They're all about wizards! Not this cove. This cove's about mermaids.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:27
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FoolyCharged posted:I've found the best way to handle is (thing) art discussions is to tell everyone involved to pull their heads out of their asses. They can see much clearer after that and realize that none of the argument mattered in the slightest. When discussions about video games and art come up I freak out and shove my head up my rear end like an ostrich
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Nov 3, 2021 19:31
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Capital Letdown posted:Not about XCOM2, but I hate this about a lot of games and DLC now. Buy something, load it up, have to figure out which items and quests that it showers upon me at the beginning are from the dlc. Just tons of pop ups telling you like, GO CHECK OUT THE WIZARDS KEEP, GO CHECK OUT THE MERMAIDS COVE, while you're still in a starting town. Remember when I bought the collectors edition of Deus Ex Human Revolutions, started it up and played through the opening cutscene. Then once that finished playing the game stopped every 2 seconds to tell me I now own the SILENT KILLER SET and the JC TENTON ACCESSORY SET and everything else that came with it.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:36
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Icochet posted:When discussions about video games and art come up I freak out and shove my head up my rear end like an ostrich lol
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Nov 3, 2021 20:06
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Archer666 posted:Remember when I bought the collectors edition of Deus Ex Human Revolutions, started it up and played through the opening cutscene. Then once that finished playing the game stopped every 2 seconds to tell me I now own the SILENT KILLER SET and the JC TENTON ACCESSORY SET and everything else that came with it. the worst are RPGs/adventure games (games that, usually, want to have just a tiny bit of -*-IMMERSION-*- to them) that shower you with DLCs sets that gives you ++stats. I get probably 99.9% of the target market loves that poo poo, but for me it just pulls me out and I usually dump that stuff in the first trash bin I can find. Worst offenders are games where you cannot get rid of these AND have an automated system to tell you if you have a better equipment in your inventory, thus constantly having to see a sad face telling you you're not wearing the optimal super gear given to you at the beginning.
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Nov 3, 2021 20:59
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Archer666 posted:Remember when I bought the collectors edition of Deus Ex Human Revolutions, started it up and played through the opening cutscene. Then once that finished playing the game stopped every 2 seconds to tell me I now own the SILENT KILLER SET and the JC TENTON ACCESSORY SET and everything else that came with it. I think the worst one I saw do this was New Vegas ultimate edition because it has a ton of that poo poo
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Nov 3, 2021 21:20
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 I think I hate everything about this image. Dumb scanlines, symbols instead of just text, the fact you don't just click the symbols no you drag them into the middle. Just awful.
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Nov 3, 2021 21:29
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e: ^ don't forget that it's a 4k image of a low resolution monitor lolPopoto posted:It's 1 "identical (it's not, mostly because it's quite shorter)" additional playthrough, and then 2 more that are completely different since they start from different starting points with -1- alternate ending you can replay straight from the end. look man i think the dude who gave up before finishing the game knows a little more than it than you do, nerd
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Nov 3, 2021 21:31
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Here is why I didn't like Nier Automata: *lays out a five point bullet list, all of them are wrong*.
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Nov 3, 2021 21:33
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Really avoidable error since there are plenty of legitimate things to not like about it without just imagining what you believe the story/gameplay to be without having gone through it.
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Nov 3, 2021 21:34
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Duck and Cover posted:
i hate art too im kidding
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Nov 3, 2021 21:36
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| # ? May 26, 2024 21:19 |
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Meme Poker Party posted:Really avoidable error since there are plenty of legitimate things to not like about it without just imagining what you believe the story/gameplay to be without having gone through it. most people I know played through it in story mode, which basically eliminate gameplay, and treated it as an interactive anime. Probably the best way to play it. I cannot believe someone sane even attempting the "one hit permadeath" mode.
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Nov 3, 2021 21:38
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