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BougieBitch posted:The Grinnell College survey has crosstabs for city/suburb/town/rural - city has the highest rate on full forgiveness and lowest for no forgiveness (37/19), suburbs are bad (22/33), towns are average (27/27), rural is TERRIBLE (18/40). The other poll doesn't have a similar crosstab, but you can extrapolate for sure. I hadn't considered the animosity that waiving student debt my create, thank you for diving into the data. I still think my general point still stands though, the dems should just start throwing entitlements out for everyone. Give people multiple and visible things you can point out and say "hey look what we did".
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Nov 4, 2021 21:59
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Hellblazer187 posted:lol that mortgage payment alone is more than many people I know live off of. They are spending 200 dollars a month on car maintenance. What in the world?
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Nov 4, 2021 22:05
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Sedisp posted:They are spending 200 dollars a month on car maintenance. What in the world? tfw your list says you drive an import, but your maintenance bill says you drive some shitbox luxury car that's always falling apart
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Nov 4, 2021 22:12
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Lol messing with time is a fun distraction from the horrible gridlock. Kids should go to school at like 9 am anyways. Apparently most of the entire world is big on punishing kids and making them go to school super early. Herstory Begins Now posted:tfw your list says you drive an import, but your maintenance bill says you drive some shitbox luxury car that's always falling apart They all drive Lincoln MKZs from 2006 InsertPotPun posted:i wonder what the news would be reporting on now if trump had won, drat sure they wouldn't be doing stories like these. What would the media be doing stories on then?
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Nov 4, 2021 22:12
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i wonder what the news would be reporting on now if trump had won, drat sure they wouldn't be doing stories like these.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:tfw your list says you drive an import, but your maintenance bill says you drive some shitbox luxury car that's always falling apart If I can afford the Jag, I can afford the maintenance. 
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Nov 4, 2021 22:14
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Peter Daou Zen posted:Lol messing with time is a fun distraction from the horrible gridlock. Kids have to go to school early so their full-time job having parents can drop them off on the way to work. Everything revolves around the job, kids' wellbeing be damned.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:15
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Hellblazer187 posted:lol that mortgage payment alone is more than many people I know live off of. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 22:17
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BougieBitch posted:The take away here is that even without any dumb technocrat stuff, the "student debt jubilee" policy won't move the needle - it isn't beneficial to 87% of people and a fairly large proportion of them would feel slighted. If you want an unimpeachable policy, you have to find a way to tie the student debt relief stuff with something that would benefit people with no student loans, or you are gonna piss off the blue-collar workers and the scholarship-getters that won't benefit I think if you had 45 million people suddenly having an extra $400 to spend every month and 1.6 trillion in debt wiped away, a broad swath of the population would benefit. That's billions of dollars going into the real economy instead of to some loving bank somewhere. That's 25 year olds getting to move out from their parents homes. The parents might not have student debt, but they definitely benefit. Ditto for the kids and partners of anyone with student debt. Ditto for any local business in their community. Student debt relief would benefit WAY MORE than the 45 million people with student loans in the United States. There's also an intensity factor to consider as well. If you slightly piss off some people because "hey that's not fair" but you MASSIVELY improve the lives of 45 million people, that can still be beneficial politically. Among the people who are so motivated by resentment they don't want to see loans forgiven, how many were getable by Democrats in the first place? How many previously apathetic voters do you win by doing the thing? You can't just look at the approve/disapprove numbers to determine how many votes you'll win from a policy.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:23
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Rochallor posted:Kids have to go to school early so their full-time job having parents can drop them off on the way to work. Everything revolves around the job, kids' wellbeing be damned. Whatever it is it isn't uniquely American or Western. The way they treat kids and schooling over in China and Korea.... man.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:23
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I think id prefer dark mornings compared to dark nights, especially now that kids schools are slowly moving start times later. Either way just kill the fuckin change, already dreading my kids waking up at 4:30 am this weekend.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:24
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Darkrenown posted:You're doing a weird performative thing here instead of actually providing any evidence, so I have to assume you have none. Which business did McAuliffe give subsidies too? Man he sure gets lucky that way a lot though! Weird! quote:What state level crime was Trump doing in VA around that time? This is also a pattern for Trump, he similarly gave to other DAs investigating him like Pam Bondi, who also found no criminal wrongdoing, also a happy coincidence I am sure. quote:Are all political donations bribes in your eyes or is there a specific $ amount where it becomes a bribe as opposed to a donation? Did McAuliffe hug all his small dollar donors or just the Nazis or was there a minimum donation amount (obviously a $25,000 check qualified). I think when you're getting huggy hugs you've successfully bought access idk. I'm sure the cost to bribe a politician varies on a case by case basis but there's plenty evidence it's often eyebrow-raisingly low. Mcauliffe seems to be on the cheap side but hey so was his opponent. quote:Are you using the general definition of a bribe as being for a specific act or do you include just wanting to be in someone's good graces or to have access as well? quote:No, the meaning of being on the payroll is when you are being paid on an ongoing basis.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:25
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Halloween Jack posted:There's a hundred things wrong with these "scraping by on six figures" budgets, but the very first line-item is that they're saving $38,000 a year, thousands more than the median per capita income. (And $12k more in a college fund, but nevermind.) Please sir have a heart I only take *checks notes* Two destination vacations a year my third one has to be a staycation!
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Nov 4, 2021 22:26
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I often went to school in the dark and it was fine, but now that I'm an adult, 100% the worst part of winter is getting done with work and having it already be dark. We'll probably end up going with permanent Standard Time though because the world is run by morning people who think that anyone not awake by 7:30 is lazy.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:27
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Lib and let die posted:If I can afford the Jag, I can afford the maintenance. That's exactly how I feel about SALT taxes!
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Nov 4, 2021 22:28
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i would go to school when it was dark out because before school was when the jazz band practiced. hosed up.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:28
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When the Kluge vineyard went out of business, they had a big sale. They also donated a bunch of wine to a local radio station. The station manager at the time was a teetotaler, so he gave it to volunteers. That's how I enjoyed two bottles of Viognier before it became Trump Viognier. Welp, that's my story.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:32
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I don't understand why people keep saying, "but parents will hate this because they'll send their kids to school in the dark" when their kids have after school poo poo as well and would preferably do it while some light remains. Christ, I loving hate trying to work in my yard and it's dark by 4 or 5pm. WA, OR and CA already voted to have permanent DST, so at least let us have it.
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Nov 4, 2021 22:54
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Yes please that sounds loving great. My kids wake up the moment the goddamn sun rises.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:01
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The easiest answer is the one nobody really even bothers to consider: we simply don't force people to work during all the bright hours of the day. Cut the week down to 5 or 6 hours a day and then you can have children in school for slightly less time then they are now, allowing them to still be useful as a daycare/food dispensation facility, and then everyone gets to enjoy the sun! The current culture isn't fixed in stone, but even getting people to look outside the prison-framework we've got going is apparently impossible. Not a slight at the thread, just like, in general.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:01
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ST, DST, I don't really care. Stop making me change my clocks, relearn how many hours difference are between here and London, and move my sleep cycle twice a year.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:04
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Jesus christ Josh Barro, just shut the gently caress up. You think peas belong in guacamole, you think BBQ and grilling is bad, and now you're wrong here as well. Just shut the gently caress up.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:07
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Solkanar512 posted:Jesus christ Josh Barro, just shut the gently caress up. You think peas belong in guacamole, you think BBQ and grilling is bad, and now you're wrong here as well. Funny if signing the Sunshine Act tanks Biden to 20% approval ratings because the media got all up in their feelings about waking up before the sun rises. edit: I also think that most of the media people bitching about this don't like to jog in the dark.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:14
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Ershalim posted:The easiest answer is the one nobody really even bothers to consider: we simply don't force people to work during all the bright hours of the day. Cut the week down to 5 or 6 hours a day and then you can have children in school for slightly less time then they are now, allowing them to still be useful as a daycare/food dispensation facility, and then everyone gets to enjoy the sun! The current culture isn't fixed in stone, but even getting people to look outside the prison-framework we've got going is apparently impossible. Not a slight at the thread, just like, in general. The problem here is that while this is 100% something we should do, it is a much much bigger restructuring of society than stopping changing people's clocks twice a year. I'm a little skeptical we can even get the baby step DST "fix" through Congress, so I think reducing work hours universally will have to wait until The Glorious Revolution or The Election of 50 Good Senators + 219 Good House Members + A Good President and Vice President + The Presence of a Non-Hostile Supreme Court, whichever comes first.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:29
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Terminal autist posted:I hadn't considered the animosity that waiving student debt my create, thank you for diving into the data. I still think my general point still stands though, the dems should just start throwing entitlements out for everyone. Give people multiple and visible things you can point out and say "hey look what we did". Yeah, I don't disagree, the main problem with student loan forgiveness is that there's a lot of overlap in who it helps with other policies they already have or are working on - there's a lot of people who give "YANG GANG UBI" comments (both sincerely and ironically) and it is kind of an encapsulation of the problem. On one hand, $600 monthly checks forever is likely a really popular policy, but the flip side is that because of the "well how does that help me" attitude from the average joe, you end up with the Yang UBI problem where you push the policy INSTEAD OF more targeted relief that aims to repair disparities. You basically have to do some sort of "spoonful of sugar" trick to give more to the people with more need by burying it in a broader policy or else people will do the "where's mine?" routine. It's probably not impossible to use UBI as the Trojan horse for general welfare reform in a POSITIVE way instead of the NEGATIVE way that Yang proposed, but it would most certainly require getting rid of the filibuster first, and with the current set of senators that is def not happening on the federal level (and generally state tax structures won't support it, esp with the SALT cap making it actually a potential problem to raise rates meaningfully). The other thing that this structure will inevitably require is large-scale tax reform - if we are giving up on doing targeted programs, we need to boost revenue a bunch with more tiers, wealth tax, corp tax, inheritance tax, cap gains tax, whatever works. As much as possible, you need to make the taxes overly-technical and narrowly-applied so that people complaining about it have to spend a whole NYT op-ed on it and you can just say "make millionaires pay their fair share". We could also start nationalizing more systems directly - day care, social workers, assistance for the elderly and disabled, if you bundle all of them together in one rhetorical flourish you can actually build up enough of a coalition for the changes to get the number of recipients up to a proper voting bloc. All that said, Biden can't do that with an executive order giving debt relief - it's a band-aid on a gaping wound to begin with since 18-year-olds entering college now will accumulate the same or worse, and gives an easy out for blocking future reform (because the people who get their loans forgiven now aren't going to go for doing it a second time, since it won't benefit them personally). It's funny that a lot of the people arguing for it are the same crew angry at the incrementalism of Obamacare, because doing one-time debt relief with an executive order instead of making huge changes to higher education in a bill is fuel for the exact same fire of "welp, we fixed college now, put up the Mission Accomplished banner". You can draw parallels to universal suffrage - every time the popular sentiment started getting to a boil, some partial concessions were made to splinter the coalition. Now we are coming back around to poll taxes and Jim Crow poo poo with the FL felon disenfranchisement bullshit, voter ID laws, polling place fuckery, and there isn't any way to unite people around the issue because it is only impacting the least empowered people, and not at a high enough rate for the collective to gain a proper voice. If we are going to do loan forgiveness, it needs to be in conjunction with AT LEAST free community college if not 4-year so we don't have to keep doing patchwork fixes, just like we need to lock in min wage increases to be annual. Hellblazer187 posted:I think if you had 45 million people suddenly having an extra $400 to spend every month and 1.6 trillion in debt wiped away, a broad swath of the population would benefit. That's billions of dollars going into the real economy instead of to some loving bank somewhere. That's 25 year olds getting to move out from their parents homes. The parents might not have student debt, but they definitely benefit. Ditto for the kids and partners of anyone with student debt. Ditto for any local business in their community. Student debt relief would benefit WAY MORE than the 45 million people with student loans in the United States. The first post I made was specifically to address this - it's popular for urban, black, under 35, college-educated, and middle-income. Obviously the policy is broadly beneficial, but the raw number is irrelevant for the same reason that the popular vote total in a presidential election is irrelevant - the concentration is localized to areas without competitive races. I'm not aware of any particular dataset that shows the county-by-county number of residents with student loans, but I'm willing to bet that, for example, in MA the people with student loans are densely packed in the area within 40 mi of Boston, 10 mi of Amherst, and 20 of Worchester. Why do I know that? Because if you finished a degree you can have a job that expects you to have at least a generic degree, unlike the people who didn't go to college, and if you got a graduate degree (and a bunch more debt) you are likely to live near a population center with major research institutions, medical centers, law firms, or whatever. That is electorally USELESS, even if it benefits parents or whatnot through a halo effect, but even that is relying on a stereotype of student debt holders that is just not realistic - there are plenty of people at or approaching 30 or 35 with debt, and the parents that really wish their kids loan were forgiven are ALREADY INCLUDED in the total of people "for" the policy. This policy is leaning into the very thing that has been loving Democrats for literally forever, the fact that their voters are concentrated in a much smaller number of sq mi than the opposition, and it is a total political loser for that reason. Contrawise, policies like the child tax credit, despite the objections of some here, are much better targeted, because "children" is a category that is much more evenly distributed. Note again that I'm not saying anything about the justness or correctness of the policy in a vacuum, only in terms of the electoral benefit. Anything that increases taxes on the rich and/or spending on the poor is A-OK with me, but it is not a good strategy if you want to win suburbs and rural areas, which is the only way Dems are ever going to get control of any more states than they currently have BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 23:41
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Ershalim posted:The easiest answer is the one nobody really even bothers to consider: we simply don't force people to work during all the bright hours of the day. Cut the week down to 5 or 6 hours a day and then you can have children in school for slightly less time then they are now, allowing them to still be useful as a daycare/food dispensation facility, and then everyone gets to enjoy the sun! The current culture isn't fixed in stone, but even getting people to look outside the prison-framework we've got going is apparently impossible. Not a slight at the thread, just like, in general. If we're going to change the work week, I'd honestly rather the 8x4 work week, but I'd gladly take 6x4 too, given the obvious math. But 6x5 would also, still be an improvement. But I totally agree, to bridge our points: when you talk about the 4 day work week, far too many people jump to the conclusion of 10 hour days because the thought of working less hours for the same total pay, is so foreign.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:41
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e: ^^^^ exactly!VikingofRock posted:The problem here is that while this is 100% something we should do, it is a much much bigger restructuring of society than stopping changing people's clocks twice a year. I'm a little skeptical we can even get the baby step DST "fix" through Congress, so I think reducing work hours universally will have to wait until The Glorious Revolution or The Election of 50 Good Senators + 219 Good House Members + A Good President and Vice President + The Presence of a Non-Hostile Supreme Court, whichever comes first. Well that's probably true, but I feel like the fact that we never talk about better things being possible on a national level is part of why we don't actually ever make things better. I expect lanyards to be moderate in their bureaucratic foxholes because having strong opinions is anathema to incrementalists, but there's no reason I feel the need to be constrained by that. If no prominent voices are willing to say "hey this is dumb and bad and we should stop" then the less prominent voices need to until someone else picks it up. None of the really good stuff that's happened has ever been suggested by those at the top, it's always been imposed by us on the bottom. When that doesn't happen, it falls into a holding pattern where, cynically, it seems the entire point is for the masses to fight about something trivial and unimportant because it prevents us from pointing our collective attention to things that would actually matter. But before I got through saying that I'm sure someone would be all "BUT TOILET PAPER FACING UP OR DOWN?!" so I dunno. Either way, there's no real reason we can't have more humane work hours other than that rich people don't want them, so I'll continue advocating for that. 
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Nov 4, 2021 23:44
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How are u posted:I've lived with 3.5 hours of daylight in the depth of winter and while it's ~not great~ you do kind of get used to it. Living a cozy life inside, wrapped in eternal darkness. As another Seattle liver the problem is, Seattle doesn't do 'cozy' or 'adaptation'. We just sit in traffic for two hours while the sun is still snoozing and then go about our day like zombies and sit in two hours of darkness on the way back and everybody pretends we aren't living in Mordor.
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Nov 4, 2021 23:57
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VitalSigns posted:Trump is infamous for using political connections with Republicans and Democrats alike to funnel massive taxpayer-funded subsidies to his businesses, but as you well know McAuliffe lost that election so demanding receipts on what that one particular contribution bought is silly. Nothing, because it went to the losing candidate, but because Trump hedged his bets and backed everyone his identical $25,000 donation to the eventual winner of that race netted a hefty tax break for the Virginia winery he had just bought. I'm sure that particular $25,000 donation to that particular candidate was the only one that came with strings attached and Trump just lucked out that the candidate who corruptly took his money won and not any of the ones who took the exact same money with pure hearts (lol). I was trying to nail down why you thought Trump was bribing McAuliffe, but as it turns out you think basically all donations are bribes so it doesn't really matter. Fair enough, but by that standard basically every politician is bribed so there's not much point getting mad at a specific one. You can of course be mad at the system though. I brought up Harris because I thought it was funny Trump has donated to both Harris* and Biden. Since you were saying a donation = on the payroll of, I found the idea that both the POTUS and the VP are on Trump's payroll to be amusing, especially with the qanon view that Trump is secretly still in charge and I thought maybe it would prompt you to reflect that it was an absurd position. Plus Biden won on an anti-Trump position despite his donation, so apparently it's not a disqualification. * = Harris seems to have gave the money away BTW. I am "trying to restrict consideration of his criminal activities to Virginia" because McAuliffe was running for VA, so logically if Trump was bribing him for business or crime reasons it would be to do with stuff in VA. Nah, "on the payroll" generally means an ongoing arrangement. You can google "on the payroll meaning" if you disbelieve me. It's OK you have a different usage of it, but as I mentioned this caused confusion until you clarified what you meant. I'd probably use "bought/paid off" to indicate a one time payment with an ongoing effect, but you do you. I hope that clears things up for you. I'm still not convinced that McAuliffe getting a 2009 donation from Trump was a big deal or a factor in why he lost though, so I wont post about this more unless you have some other evidence.
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Nov 5, 2021 00:29
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AmiYumi posted:
Specifically which medications or conditions? A scheduled medicine administered in a medical setting is considered on time if given within one hour before or after the ordered time, so I'd love to know more
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Nov 5, 2021 00:41
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BougieBitch posted:Yeah, I don't disagree, the main problem with student loan forgiveness is that there's a lot of overlap in who it helps with other policies they already have or are working on - there's a lot of people who give "YANG GANG UBI" comments (both sincerely and ironically) and it is kind of an encapsulation of the problem. On one hand, $600 monthly checks forever is likely a really popular policy, but the flip side is that because of the "well how does that help me" attitude from the average joe, you end up with the Yang UBI problem where you push the policy INSTEAD OF more targeted relief that aims to repair disparities. You basically have to do some sort of "spoonful of sugar" trick to give more to the people with more need by burying it in a broader policy or else people will do the "where's mine?" routine. This probably isn't as good an idea as I think it is, since I've only spent 5 mins thinking about it since reading your post, but: Give a UBI and also have some matching tied to the UBI amount. Say people get $500 month/$6000 year - the gov would match 1 annual UBI to mortgage payments, e.g. so as long as you paid $6k in mortgage the fed would pay off another $6k for you. Match it double for first time home downpayment. Match it *3 for Student loan payments. Everyone gets some money, a few types of debt are more efficiently paid off, everyone is invested in the UBI increasing. I don't know what % of people don't have a mortgage, don't ever want to buy a house, and don't have student debt who also wouldn't want some free $, but a lot of people should be pleased by that.
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Nov 5, 2021 00:51
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I do uh, 14 time changes a month for my job, at 1 hour a day you get used to it if you have non-depressing artificial lighting, and good curtains. How is a 1 hour clock change loving poo poo up on such a big scale? We still need to stay on summer time forever gently caress it getting dark at 2pm
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Nov 5, 2021 01:06
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poll plane variant posted:I do uh, 14 time changes a month for my job, at 1 hour a day you get used to it if you have non-depressing artificial lighting, and good curtains. How is a 1 hour clock change loving poo poo up on such a big scale? We still need to stay on summer time forever gently caress it getting dark at 2pm Are you the captain of an air ship?
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Nov 5, 2021 01:10
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Darkrenown posted:I was trying to nail down why you thought Trump was bribing McAuliffe, but as it turns out you think basically all donations are bribes so it doesn't really matter. Fair enough, but by that standard basically every politician is bribed so there's not much point getting mad at a specific one. You can of course be mad at the system though. Do you understand the words circumstancial evidence? Because the argument at no point was "all donations are bribes". It was that Trump is an incredibly corrupt person and has a pattern of donating to both parties and than having things work out to his benefit. I don't know if I'd call paying for access a textbook bribe but everyone knows it's a heavy finger on the scales. And why shouldn't you be mad at politicians? They don't need to play this game. And none of it's direct evidence of course but do you really think Trump donates money to politicians with no return? It benefits him in some way and he's always been a sociopathic piece of poo poo. I don't think it really impacted the election outside of the fact that it's one of the many ways McAuliffe came off as an enormous hypocrite and probably drove home the point to some people that if your options are only corruption you might as well pick the ones who are open about it and tell you they'll generally leave you alone if you're the majority. It's dumb but people are dumb.
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Nov 5, 2021 01:11
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Daylight saving time is probably capitalism's crowning achievement. Instead of just moving office hours around in certain places for some months of the year, as appropriate, we modify time itself so that the business day is always 8AM to 5PM.
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Nov 5, 2021 01:20
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Just abolish the sun and swap AM and PM.
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Nov 5, 2021 01:25
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poll plane variant posted:I do uh, 14 time changes a month for my job, at 1 hour a day you get used to it if you have non-depressing artificial lighting, and good curtains. How is a 1 hour clock change loving poo poo up on such a big scale? We still need to stay on summer time forever gently caress it getting dark at 2pm You never get used to that though. People suffering from chronic sleep loss operate at a lower level without realizing it.
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Nov 5, 2021 01:26
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Proficient Scoundrel posted:Are you the captain of an air ship? Pacific crossings on a ship will do that. I hated it. One hour a day for like a week hosed my poo poo right up.
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Nov 5, 2021 01:35
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Mendrian posted:As another Seattle liver the problem is, Seattle doesn't do 'cozy' or 'adaptation'. can't be mordor, too much loving rain for it to be mordor. We're the dead marshes
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Nov 5, 2021 01:39
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gently caress it, go big, put the whole country on unix time.
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Nov 5, 2021 01:45
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