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Jimbot posted:If you feel so strongly about this point, I'm open to examples of where this is so super apparent that I'm some kind of oblivious moron for missing. Maybe I did miss it but nothing comes to mind other than Lan being Lan. It's cool that if I were to reread this book after going through the whole thing and somehow remembering all of it that I'd pick up on these things but as a first time through it is sudden and not good. No one's saying you're oblivious, but "because I didn't pick up on it it means the book is bad for using it later" is a really, *really* weird take. Authors do this all the time!
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Nov 5, 2021 15:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The big one is Yea, that's obvious for Nynaeve crushing on Lan, but on a re-read people notice that that's when Lan kinda-sorta starts crushing on Nynaeve too. He really digs her tracking and survivalist skills and it just flows from there. I really love those two as a couple, I think they're my favorite in the whole series aside from Rand and Min.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:33
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Soysaucebeast posted:I think they're my favorite in the whole series aside from Rand and Min. Berelain/Galad ftw
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Nov 5, 2021 15:37
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It's certainly not a romance novel but i def spotted the Nynaeve and Lan thing on a reread. Admittedly, I was all wtf?! on the first readthrough.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:38
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Rarity posted:Berelain/Galad ftw Why did I think that was going to be Mat/Tylin Mitsobar until I clicked on it?
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Nov 5, 2021 15:39
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Rarity posted:Berelain/Galad ftw I always forget that they get together. In my mind all she does is harass Perrin and all he does is be weirdly legit good Whitecloak.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:42
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also this is a thread for a book series that is literally 14 novels long with later ones being notably longer than the earlier ones so maybe the ones who have read it all have a bit more insight into how maybe the chemistry between two characters is something that's there and gets developed fully later on instead of us being delusional
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Nov 5, 2021 15:43
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Rarity posted:- Their whole dynamic during the Perrin/Egwene rescue where Lan almost disobeys Moiraine to save her Lan goes from "what a bunch of morons, I don't think you're worth it no matter what Moiraine says" to getting middle named by Moiraine for turning around and going back for Nynaeve in the next breath
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Nov 5, 2021 15:55
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Nyneave and Lan took me a little by surprise my first time through, as well. So I can understand that. And Jordan did it even *more* so with two other characters right at the end and that's never worked for me in my head. Trying to be halfway vague for the guy reading for the first time. A 1st time book reader thread could be a good idea because I imagine more folks will jump in.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:56
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How are u posted:Nyneave and Lan took me a little by surprise my first time through, as well. So I can understand that. And Jordan did it even *more* so with two other characters right at the end and that's never worked for me in my head. I do appreciate that in that case, there's a third party standing nearby who says "What? Where did this come from?!" Because there are hints about those two, they're just subtle and mostly are disconnected comments to other people, or internal thoughts, or the characters are alone. So in-world, nobody had any idea at all. It's something I find fascinating about detailed first-time reads (Nexue, Wheel Takes): seeing how much people pick up on, that I missed, by reading each chapter very closely and stopping to analyze each one, make predictions about where everything's going. "Master Bard."
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Nov 5, 2021 16:09
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Those two relationships are fun because they’re actually super obvious before they become explicit but only if you’re familiar with the tropes of a certain type of antiquated Romance novel, where characters often engage in flirtation that looks like an argument. That, and on second readings you go from “Huh, Nynaeve tracked Lan” to “Holy poo poo, I forgot that Nynaeve tracked Lan!”
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Nov 5, 2021 17:03
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Yeah, a lot of the romance in WoT makes more sense when you connect the dots to the literal bodice ripper historical romance novel series Jordan wrote immediately before WoT.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:06
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I’ll agree with the hints for Lan and Nynaeve. But you can’t loving convince me there was anything for Thom and Moraine, I will not hear the nonsense.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:22
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Those two relationships are fun because they’re actually super obvious before they become explicit but only if you’re familiar with the tropes of a certain type of antiquated Romance novel, where characters often engage in flirtation that looks like an argument. The spoiler relationship really isn’t. Thom has a POV with an interaction with Moiraine in the Stone of Tear and there’s no evidence of any affection. If anything, he’s got a mild contempt. He doesn’t interact with her again until her return, where they’re both madly in love.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:23
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They're both playing the game and are adapt enough at it they don't make gently caress eyes at each other. The big hints imo are how Thom talks about her to the boys.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:30
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Prairie Bus posted:The spoiler relationship really isn’t. Thom has a POV with an interaction with Moiraine in the Stone of Tear and there’s no evidence of any affection. If anything, he’s got a mild contempt. He doesn’t interact with her again until her return, where they’re both madly in love. Bollocks Thom's very impressed by her both for her looks and her political savvy and he's hinting at his attraction from as early as book 2 then after she dies he's constantly moping over her letter. On Moiraine's side she's very warm towards him in Tear and then obviously finds out she'll hook up with him in Rhuidean and hints at it after. Again they're super closed off people so they don't make their affections too explicit
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Nov 5, 2021 17:30
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Rarity posted:Bollocks Being impressed ain’t love. And again, he had no more interactions with her after that point. That’s the end of it. If they had previously had a tryst, there should’ve been some kind of hint in his thoughts about her. Jordan changed his mind in later books, but that scene is very clear about his feelings about her. And the Moiraine/Siuan romance someone else mentioned is a way better idea
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Nov 5, 2021 17:36
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Prairie Bus posted:Being impressed ain’t love. He literally keeps going on about her being a fine woman and very pretty
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Nov 5, 2021 17:38
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Thom has a visceral hate for Aes Sedai, pure nonsense.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:40
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I agree that (book 2+ spoilers)Moiraine and Thom is thin, but it's not absent. Their interactions in TEOTW are often flirtatious in a cagey kind of way. Then there's what he says to the boys as was previously mentioned. Rand and Thom in The Great Hunt: quote:Rand could not help laughing. “I left Whitebridge sure you were dead. Moiraine said you were still alive, but I. . . . Light, Thom, it’s good to see you again! I should have gone back to help you.” quote:Neither would leave until the gleeman agreed to eat something, and when they did go, they gave Mat such a combination of stares and sniffs that he could only shake his head. Burn me, you would think I was encouraging him to drink more! Women! But pretty eyes on the pair of them . Then there's the big giveaway between Thom and Moiraine in The Shadow Rising quote:Pushing open the door to his room, he stopped in his tracks. Moiraine straightened as if she had a perfect right to be going through the papers scattered on his table and calmly arranged her skirts as she sat on the stool. Now there was a beautiful woman, with every grace a man could want, including laughing at his quips. Fool! Old fool! She’s Aes Sedai, and you’re too tired to think straight.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:55
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Plus the letter she writes him just before she and Lanfear go through the door is basically a love letter.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:58
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Nynaeve likes him because he respected her for what she can do, and sees her as a person and not a wisdom. Lan likes her because...? Tha's always never really set well with me, considering he is prime marriage material until he becomes a warder, and loads of Borderland women are tough/capable.
ninjoatse.cx fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 17:59
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All good case for that turn presented but I just didn't buy it. I'm sorry. They're super disconnected and I think they can be taken in any way the first time through. There might be something there in book 1 but not enough for me to realistically buy into what they talked about. For me, I'm willing to buy that those interactions had super strong romantic undertones to them. I'll make that leap in the name of good faith, but what threw me off was Lan talked as if the courtship would lead into marriage and Nynaeve thought so too. It was just weird to me that those examples provide would just go on to "ya, let's get married". I guess maybe the people in this universe marry the first person they date. Actually, I'd like to know the divorce rate statistic, make it so lore books.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:02
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Jimbot posted:All good case for that turn presented but I just didn't buy it. I'm sorry. They're super disconnected and I think they can be taken in any way the first time through. There might be something there in book 1 but not enough for me to realistically buy into what they talked about. For me, I'm willing to buy that those interactions had super strong romantic undertones to them but what threw me off was Lan talked as if the courtship would lead into marriage and Nynaeve thought so too. It was just weird to me that those examples provide would just go on to "ya, let's get married". The culture of the Two Rivers is this, it's supposed to be a very Puritanic culture. It's played to comedic effect with Rand when he hooks up with a woman and then is like "welp, so when's good for you to get married" and the woman's like, "uh...." buffalo all day fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 18:04
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Jimbot posted:I guess maybe the people in this universe marry the first person they date Rand and Egwene assume they're gonna be shacked up for life just because they're the first people they crush on
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Nov 5, 2021 18:04
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Jimbot posted:All good case for that turn presented but I just didn't buy it. I'm sorry. They're super disconnected and I think they can be taken in any way the first time through. There might be something there in book 1 but not enough for me to realistically buy into what they talked about. For me, I'm willing to buy that those interactions had super strong romantic undertones to them. I'll make that leap in the name of good faith, but what threw me off was Lan talked as if the courtship would lead into marriage and Nynaeve thought so too. It was just weird to me that those examples provide would just go on to "ya, let's get married". That is kind of a reoccurring thing in the setting. Very short courtships. Many of them off screen.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:05
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ninjoatse.cx posted:Nynaeve likes him because he respected her for what she can do, and sees her as a person and not a wisdom. Lan likes her because...? Tha's always never really set well with me, considering he is prime marriage material until he becomes a warder, and loads of Borderland women are tough/capable. I remember being thrown by that as a teen reading the series for the first time. It's easy to get why women like Lann, but what does Lann see in nynaeve? I think we have to assume that 1) nynaeve is screaming hot 2) he wants an angry passionate lady who isn't afraid of *anything* and who won't let him gwt away with that self sacrifice bullshit 3) he may appreciate that she likes him without knowing he's he's king
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Nov 5, 2021 18:10
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More on the Shadow Rising scene:quote:"I am not thirsty," she said in a pleasant, melodious voice. She leaned forward, and the room was small enough for her to place a hand on his right knee. A chill tingle rippled through him. "I wish a good Healer had been near when this happened. It is too late now, I regret." It's actually a pretty complex scene since Moiraine is obviously manipulating Thom and there's the tension involving Owyn, so quoting fragments of it is a bit unfair. But it's very clear to me when reading it that there's mutual respect and attraction between both of them. And also that Moiraine already knows at least something of their fate from the Aelfinn, though possibly only that he might rescue her, not that they'll be romantically involved.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:13
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Maybe Lan just wants to get his dick wet
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Nov 5, 2021 18:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I remember being thrown by that as a teen reading the series for the first time. It's easy to get why women like Lann, but what does Lann see in nynaeve? Regarding 1, I think this is pretty clear. The whole "older women don't like/respect me because I look young" thing is code for the trope that women hate other women who are better looking than them. This is a widely disparaged trope for good reason, but it was a very prevalent male attitude at the time of writing and still persists today. Hexel posted:Maybe Lan just wants to get his dick wet According to New Spring, he has never had a problem in that area.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:20
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Regarding 1, I think this is pretty clear. The whole "older women don't like/respect me because I look young" thing is code for the trope that women hate other women who are better looking than them. 
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Nov 5, 2021 18:23
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It's a very common sexist trope from male writers in the 20th century and also today
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Nov 5, 2021 18:24
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what does lan see in nynaeve except for the part where she is beautiful, cool, impressive, and likes him? who can say, men are mysteries.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:25
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Lotta people who don't understand the basics of human attraction itt
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Nov 5, 2021 18:26
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Lan only wants to bed the sword, thank you very much.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:30
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Regarding 1, I think this is pretty clear. The whole "older women don't like/respect me because I look young" thing is code for the trope that women hate other women who are better looking than them. This is a widely disparaged trope for good reason, but it was a very prevalent male attitude at the time of writing and still persists today. There's also the fact that a lot of older women don't like having to defer to a younger one, and that can make younger women in power defensive. It's the whole "respect your elders" thing turned up to 11. Yes, I had to manage a 50-something year old woman when I was 19. Yes, she was hell to work with, and made it explicit that it was an age thing.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:30
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Invalid Validation posted:Lan only wants to bed the sword, thank you very much. Brings a new meaning to Sheathing the Sword
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Nov 5, 2021 18:33
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Rarity posted:It's a very common sexist trope from male writers in the 20th century and also today i get that it's a thing that exists in our world, was more thinking that Soysaucebeast posted:There's also the fact that a lot of older women don't like having to defer to a younger one, and that can make younger women in power defensive. It's the whole "respect your elders" thing turned up to 11. this seemed way more plausible in the book because people are obsessing about age constantly, and one of the big inflection points between AS, Wise Ones, and Kin is whether they defer to elders or to strength in the power
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Nov 5, 2021 18:35
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Soysaucebeast posted:There's also the fact that a lot of older women don't like having to defer to a younger one, and that can make younger women in power defensive. It's the whole "respect your elders" thing turned up to 11. Yeah I mean, that's absolutely the overt way to read all of it and an important component, but the way he writes Nynaeve and Elayne especially when comparing them to other female characters makes it clear that these two are, to use the sexist terminology, 10s in a world of 6s who are just jealous. Another giveaway is that Aviendha is clearly stupidly good looking as well, but he writes the Aiel interactions in a way that it's clear that they care about competence and honor much more than appearance outside of overtly sexual/romantic interactions. A lot of this is cemented in her confusion when dealing with other female wetlanders. So yeah, while I don't really think RJ endorsed this kind of attitude, he wrote the wetlanders as a society where sexist tropes of catty-rear end women come to life. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Vavrek posted:It's part of Nynaeve's deal, but not all. Nynaeve, at the start of the series, is 25-26 years old, and has been head of the Women's Circle for some time. This means she's supposed to have all the matriarchs of Emond's Field deferring to her. She also looks young for her age, appearing somewhere in her early 20s, because she's been channeling the One Power since ... I think since she was a teenager? She talks about the first time she did but I forget what clues there are to her age in the story. aparmenideanmonad fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 18:40
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Regarding 1, I think this is pretty clear. The whole "older women don't like/respect me because I look young" thing is code for the trope that women hate other women who are better looking than them. This is a widely disparaged trope for good reason, but it was a very prevalent male attitude at the time of writing and still persists today. It's part of Nynaeve's deal, but not all. Nynaeve, at the start of the series, is 25-26 years old, and has been head of the Women's Circle for some time. This means she's supposed to have all the matriarchs of Emond's Field deferring to her. She also looks young for her age, appearing somewhere in her early 20s, because she's been channeling the One Power since ... I think since she was a teenager? She talks about the first time she did but I forget what clues there are to her age in the story. Like, I'm sure she's hot. She also actually has been a 20something in positions of authority over much older people.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:40
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