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There's a big difference between being aware that there are issues with the EU and being pro-Brexit like you claimed. The guy voted remain, campaigned for remain and his party voted majority remain. He's not pro-Brexit.
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Oct 30, 2021 16:04
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Gort posted:There's a big difference between being aware that there are issues with the EU and being pro-Brexit like you claimed. The guy voted remain, campaigned for remain and his party voted majority remain. He's not pro-Brexit. I don’t agree with this interpretation of the events or my take on them. In my opinion, his stewardship of the Remain campaign was half-hearted because he is a staunch eurosceptic, and Labour did make for a weak and ineffective opposition throughout the crisis overall. What little effort he put into it was guided by his loyalty to the Labour, which would’ve collapsed had he just been candid with the public and the party. He doubtlessly disagreed with the means proposed by the Leave campaign, since he’s no friend to the British right, but to their desired outcome he was “at best” indifferent.
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Oct 30, 2021 17:23
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Lol, yes, Brexit happened because Jeremy Corbyn, personally, did not try hard enough. The absence of Jeremy Corbyn from Poland guarantees that the Polish will never shoot themselves in the dick politically over the fevered neuroses of reactionaries.
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Oct 30, 2021 17:57
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it says a lot about the quality of Remain campaign that Corbyn, for all his faults so diligently listed upthread, was one of the most efficient and active campaigners for Remain, despite, yes, being a noted eurosceptic  libdems (the most pro-Remain party) together with Change UK The Independent Group (a bunch of pro-remain anti-Corbyn liberal MPs peeling off Labour to form their own cool party) completely loving up any chance at having a customs union (and thus softest brexit possible) was cool and good too nurmie fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 30, 2021 |
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Oct 30, 2021 18:03
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Whether or not Corbyn is personally to blame, I think the fact that only 63% of Labour voters voted remain (compared to 42% of Conservatives) is telling enough. That's really what should be compared here. If the Polish opposition strongly associates itself with European future, and so do their voters, it's a completely different political landscape. The overall support of Polexit right now is ~20%, and while it's steadily growing, so does the number of people who strongly favour remaining in EU. If we compare that to the UK before the referendum, it's lower than support for Brexit was among voters of any large British party that officially was anti-Brexit.
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Oct 30, 2021 18:17
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Blaming Corbyn solely for the lacklustre and tone-deaf Remain campaign is peak historical revisionism. The rest of the Remain campaign was a shambles that was continually fighting Corbyn on all points, and let's not forget than the referendum was called by David Cameron, who was a Remain supporter and then resigned after losing.
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Oct 30, 2021 18:18
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The actual revisionism bit is this parade of posters I’m seeing for the first time in this thread moving the goal posts at speed or sound, because, presumably, someone dares to criticise their favourite politician to any whatsoever extent. At least come up with something more credible than claiming that I deem Corbyn to be the root cause of Brexit becoming a reality. The point of this entire “conversation” was to highlight that Tusk, unlike Corbyn, is actually enthusiastic about European integration, which is a comparative advantage the Polish opposition does enjoy.
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Oct 30, 2021 18:44
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The remain campaign is basically exactly the Hillary campaign. The liberal political establishment utterly failing to paint a positive vision which appealed to anybody but themselves, instead opting to scold the uppity proles for their wrong opinions and then proceeding to blame the left wing. This thread is as close as I come to following Polish politics despite being a Polish emigrant, as even my self-loathing has its limits, but I will assume the various PO campaigns against PiS followed a similar playbook. FWIW I also don’t think Polxit will happen
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Oct 30, 2021 18:50
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cinci zoo sniper posted:The actual revisionism bit is this parade of posters I’m seeing for the first time in this thread moving the goal posts at speed or sound, because, presumably, someone dares to criticise their favourite politician to any whatsoever extent. At least come up with something more credible than claiming that I deem Corbyn to be the root cause of Brexit becoming a reality. The problem is, this comparison kind of falls flat, seeing as the general political situation in the UK at the time of referendum and Poland now are quite different, as it has been pointed out. Not to mention your critique of Corbyn re: his handling of the Remain campaign amounting to little but regurgitating some stale talking points generally coming from people much more responsible for Brexit happening the way it happened than Corbyn ever was. The fact that a bunch of people lurking this thread delurked to point this out should probably not be dismissed as "moving the goalposts" or "revisionism" or any sort of "lol u mad". I'd advise to treat it as a learning moment instead. Re Tusk being enthusiastic about EU and all that - most of the UK establishment prior to Brexit was pretty enthusiastic about staying with EU, PM David Cameron included. We all know how that ended up going. While I personally doubt this is indicative of what's going to happen in Poland, it's still something to consider, I'd say.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:12
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A “Polish independence” campaign may go wrong for all kind of reasons, but the fact Tusk is an EU true believer will not be chief among them. It does seem like any issue of “whatever PiS says is a good idea”, including Polexit, is going to be more polarised along party lines than Brexit was. Crucially, as has been said already, Poland receives a lot of money from the EU and is a lot more reliant on cross-border work and trade. Pro-leave arguments on economic grounds will be a tough sell. In the UK the message was “keep the foreigners out and get more money for the NHS”. In Poland it would be “stop the gays but your potholes won’t get fixed”.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:49
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I don't think any economical argument is going to be persuasive. It wasn't with Brexit and it won't be in Poland. That's the real danger – leaving the EU isn't debated on the level of economic or geostrategic policy. Instead it's a mix of political brinkmanship, internal party politics, and ideology. This kind of issue can easily take a life of its own divorced from material reality. It almost doesn't matter that the majority of Poles is in favour of the EU, or that there's a large number of people commuting across Poland's borders every day. If the leadership is in a purity spiral and picks fights they can't back away from without losing face, they may do something destructive even if it makes absolutely zero sense.
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Oct 30, 2021 21:02
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Technically, Poland can leave the EU by a passing an act in the parliament with a simple majority. If PiS wanted to leave the union, they would have done it already. They just want to have their cake - get funding from the EU - and eat it too - push through whatever domestic policies they think will give them a stronger grip on power and do some tough guy posturing to suck up to the Poland Stronk electorate. Polls consistently show that 90% of Poles support our continued membership in the EU, I don't know what would have to happen to swing public opinion so much as to make leaving a politically advantageous outcome.
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Oct 30, 2021 23:12
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I don't think PiS are going for actually breaking away, I think they're just trying to stir up a shitstorm that will allow them to hold on to power while causing trouble for establishment politicos elsewhere. Macron is already pretty timid on reining Poland in because the entire French Right is looking at Poland giving the middle finger to the EU judiciary and thinking "wait, we could weaponize this as well! Cassez-vous, EU courts, FRANCE #1!!!" which basically means that if they decide to go for it, the next French election is entirely fought on the far right's home turf and that should have anyone sane sweating right now.
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Oct 31, 2021 18:37
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The problem with that is that David Cameron didn't want to leave the EU either, he just was being a clever boy and using the referendum as both a tactic to get more concessions from Europe as well as to bring back the EU critical votes that had gone to Farage's bunch. It's always the risk with trying to be smarter than you really are: if you keep making bullshit promises, at some point people will start asking for the bullshit to happen.
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Oct 31, 2021 18:52
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So I guess the polish public TV now shows scenes from movies to scare up anti-immigration support?
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Nov 1, 2021 12:11
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Seems like PiS killed their first person with their anti abortion law that was quick.
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Nov 2, 2021 16:52
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A woman was denied abortion in 20th week of pregnancy despite a condition lethal to the fetus (anhydramnios, complete lack of amniotic fluid). She died of sepsis waiting for an overdue abortion.
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Nov 2, 2021 17:14
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 Jesus Christ, seems like between Tomsk grandma, our suicide bomber, and this woman our countries can't catch a break recently. At least Orban hasn't declared himself the emperor of Austria-Hungary yet.
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Nov 2, 2021 17:27
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I’m surprised some podunk town in Italy beat The EE countries to giving Bolsanaro an honorary citizenship, what with Orban’s hard on for him and all.
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Nov 2, 2021 17:47
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Anne Frank Funk posted:A woman was denied abortion in 20th week of pregnancy despite a condition lethal to the fetus (anhydramnios, complete lack of amniotic fluid). Anti-abortion activists always do the same thing, they will keep campaigning for the tightening of legislation to the point where even conservatives start to realize that maybe reproductive rights are more than just a homoliberal battle cry for killing babbies. This is something that could happen to their niece or grand daughter!
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Nov 2, 2021 18:14
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This argument never works. They either know full and well that abortion is available if you have the means and know how, or they are true believers and have no problem whatsoever in carrying harlequin babies to term, then baptizing the stillbirths.
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Nov 2, 2021 18:35
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Looks like the refugee thing is backfiring for Belarus, German media report that a bunch of people are now stuck in Minsk and that there was an armed standoff between Polish and Belarusian border guards over letting some 250 refugees enter Poland
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Nov 5, 2021 11:47
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Reportedly there has even been a flight or two back to the Middle East from Belarus. Unlikely systemic; yet, but they have less and less time before weather puts all of this on ice.
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Nov 5, 2021 12:09
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Oof. Fingers crossed for the people.
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Nov 5, 2021 12:15
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More and more migrants are seen sleeping rough in Minsk and Hrodna. Those that still have their money and passports stay at hotels, but many don't. Dozens are stuck at the Minsk airport.
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Nov 5, 2021 12:37
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In other Belarus news, does anyone have a summary for the 28 integration documents signed last week? I’m perfectly fine with reading it in Russian if that’s the option.
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Nov 5, 2021 13:39
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cinci zoo sniper posted:In other Belarus news, does anyone have a summary for the 28 integration documents signed last week? I’m perfectly fine with reading it in Russian if that’s the option. Here. http://government.ru/news/43234/ They are very vague and their implementation completely depends on what laws the two parliaments are going/not going to pass to accomplish stated goals.
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Nov 5, 2021 13:53
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Paladinus posted:Here. Cheers, and I from reading it I agree. This amount to a little more than a folder of memoranda of understanding as of yet. A lot of it is fairly benign at that, and could turn out to be just genuinely useful if implemented with care.
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Nov 5, 2021 14:18
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Cheers, and I from reading it I agree. This amount to a little more than a folder of memoranda of understanding as of yet. A lot of it is fairly benign at that, and could turn out to be just genuinely useful if implemented with care. A good half of it is already being implemented in one form or another through the Eurasian Economic Union, and for the most part does, indeed, benefit all participants. The issue is that when it's just between two countries, and one of the countries is heavily dependent on the other's political and financial support, it can go very wrong. I don't necessarily think it will, as it's much more likely to be just another useless piece of paper, but it creates some risks. There already have been some noises about finally officially recognising Crimea as part of Russia, although it may again remain an empty promise.
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Nov 5, 2021 14:35
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The “selling the country” risk is obviously there, but I’ll cry wolf when we get done substance here.
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Nov 5, 2021 14:52
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"Diplomat found dead outside Berlin embassy was Russian secret agent - Der Spiegel | Reuters" https://www.reuters.com/world/diplomat-found-dead-outside-berlin-embassy-was-russian-secret-agent-der-spiegel-2021-11-05/ Russians and open windows, wtf.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:51
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Close the gatdang windows
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Nov 5, 2021 17:56
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Self defenestration is unfortunately fairly common 
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Nov 5, 2021 18:06
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Rust Martialis posted:"Diplomat found dead outside Berlin embassy was Russian secret agent - Der Spiegel | Reuters" I feel that “secret agent” undersells hypothetical death of an FSB general’s son.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:16
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Dobrokhotov made a good point that if you want to kill yourself you do not jump out of a 4th story window Some good James Bond/бандитский Петербург stuff going on behind the scenes To add to women-related news, Russia is running out of dissenters to kill/poison/exile and since the repressive apparatus can only be turned up and not down the police state is now trying to find and prosecute women who flashed their tits/asses, pretended to give a blowjob or had a same-sex kiss in front of churches (and made pics) for the crime of offending the feelings of believers (a real crime that is punishable by up to three years in prison).
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Nov 5, 2021 19:48
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aphid_licker posted:Looks like the refugee thing is backfiring for Belarus, German media report that a bunch of people are now stuck in Minsk and that there was an armed standoff between Polish and Belarusian border guards over letting some 250 refugees enter Poland yknow, i think they may have bungled this https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1456997851033182212 Belarus and the US now both share the honor of being kicked out of Iraq!
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Nov 6, 2021 17:56
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:yknow, i think they may have bungled this Coalition of the willing!
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Nov 6, 2021 18:20
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mobby_6kl posted:Coalition of the willing! They remembered Poland!
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Nov 6, 2021 18:50
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The Slovenian prime minister has decided to put grave flowers onto the grave of people who have decided to give their life dedicated to Nazi Germany on the 1st of November and not to the people who defended the country (the communists). Dude, I know that you hate the communists, but come on. https://twitter.com/JJansaSDS/status/1455268943187296259 Don't do this. Just don't. It's the last thing we need during a surge of covid cases.
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Nov 7, 2021 23:10
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Anne Frank Funk posted:A woman was denied abortion in 20th week of pregnancy despite a condition lethal to the fetus (anhydramnios, complete lack of amniotic fluid). As an emigrant, I keep on waiting for the day the EU tells Poland to gently caress itself. It's embarrassing.
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Nov 8, 2021 08:40
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