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Tekopo posted:Literally getting rid of the only advantage that low PS ships have over higher PS lmao. Welcome to the Aces only era of X-wing Bumping aces to stop them repositioning still works. You get some shots instead of no shots. This is extremely punishing to the ace player. Everyone who has played Soontir seriously knows that he's always one shot away from dying. And, frankly, low-PS swarms have been the meta for like the last two years of X-Wing. A boost to Aces would be welcome.
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Nov 5, 2021 14:59
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The issue is that it empowers Aces much more during clean up phases: if there is only two or three low PS ships, the power of that focus token is much higher, especially if the ace bumps in the back and doesn’t eat the extra shot. Something bumping you in the back is a death sentence for the bumper. This pushes low PS to swarms only and if they gently caress up the start and lose a couple of ships, it makes it much harder for them to be able to squeak out a win. Also it was pointed out that the real winners are big ships, that can bump and still shoot and get a focus out of it.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:06
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I can ALMOST get what they are going for with the bumping thing (it's a dog fight! keep shooting!), but I still find it completely stupid and sort of missing the point of the game as a whole and it just feels like AMG went, "eh, why not", which is pretty much everything they have done so far. It's like AMG gets a decent idea in their head then goes with the dumbest implementation possible. I mean, if the bumping thing goes into effect, that really just encourages getting everything in a group and bumping over and over with no real skill or thought and just letting dice handle it. Yes, yes, i know; you get out of the bump situation and you get more actions, but, like....for a majority of ships, focus is one of the best actions you can take.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:13
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If they’re going to preview massive rules changes it’d be nice to put them all out at once, rather than this drip and huge unknowns and speculation.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:14
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The bump thing sounds like they take the complaints by someone who played x-wing a couple of times and posted on the forums about how unrealistic it is very seriously.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:20
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Panzeh posted:The bump thing sounds like
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Nov 5, 2021 15:40
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I saw a comment that I think is spot on along the lines of "How could DARTH VADER get blocked by another ship and die turn one of shooting, that makes no thematic sense". I also don't buy the people that have been crowing about bumping being unthematic and terrible to have (since the start of 1.0). I see it as the ace had some jackass fly directly in front of them and had to hit the brakes to avoid them. Then avoid the collision made it so they couldn't get guns on target. edit: The main guy talking on the stream yesterday flat out said he played a little at the start of 1.0 but didn't play 2.0 at all.
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Nov 5, 2021 15:47
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I don’t mind things being slightly unthematic for balancing purposes. The Darth Vader argument doesn’t hold water for me because then you can argue that there’s no way that he could die to a bunch of mooks either, and that way madness lies. If you want to have player skill have an effect on the game, you are going to have situations where Darth Vader dies on the first turn of shooting, because your skill in playing the game is not equal to Darth Vader fictional piloting skill.
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Nov 5, 2021 16:05
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Darth Vader losing because he got bumped is maybe the most thematic thing there is.
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Nov 5, 2021 16:09
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Tekopo posted:I don’t mind things being slightly unthematic for balancing purposes. The Darth Vader argument doesn’t hold water for me because then you can argue that there’s no way that he could die to a bunch of mooks either, and that way madness lies. If you want to have player skill have an effect on the game, you are going to have situations where Darth Vader dies on the first turn of shooting, because your skill in playing the game is not equal to Darth Vader fictional piloting skill. I meant the comment was more in satire of people that would want to change stuff for thematic reasons. But as with all miniatures games it's exactly as you said, things can't be perfectly thematic. I wonder if these people lose their minds when Anakin in an N-1 or Jedi starfighter goes up against Vader.
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Nov 5, 2021 16:29
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I was almost going to suggest that if a ship bumps another, the bumper has to roll an attack die and take damage on a crit roll. Then I realized that would just go back to people not flying at each other. I get that they’re trying to find ways to get people to “fly and shoot” because it is not a fun game at all when people just dance around the board for 45 minutes and then try and score hits in the last minutes, or do it in the beginning and then avoid a fight for the next hour. It’s always been my opinion to shrink the game space to keep everyone in range. This is a “dogfight” game and therefore this should be in a smaller space. 3x3 is a lot of space to run around and not engage, so maybe they should shrink it down to 2x2 at max. Granted, I haven’t played the game since March 2020 (a week before the pandemic shut everything down), but I’d love to get back into the game at some point. Except not with clunky and funky rules.
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Nov 5, 2021 16:37
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Napoleon Nelson posted:Darth Vader losing because he got bumped is maybe the most thematic thing there is. No loving poo poo. That's literally how he is defeated in the trench run. Bumped by his own ally no less. ro5s posted:If they’re going to preview massive rules changes it’d be nice to put them all out at once, rather than this drip and huge unknowns and speculation. Agreed. enigmahfc posted:I can ALMOST get what they are going for with the bumping thing (it's a dog fight! keep shooting!), but I still find it completely stupid and sort of missing the point of the game as a whole and it just feels like AMG went, "eh, why not", which is pretty much everything they have done so far. It's like AMG gets a decent idea in their head then goes with the dumbest implementation possible. There is still plenty of room for good approaches, proper engagements, etc. And, frankly, I'm all for anything that encourages people to actually play the loving game. The tournament scoring system used by FFG for most of the life of X-Wing is awful. It encourages fortressing, it encourages nigh-indefinite delays of engagement, it encourages running away, and it encourages playing slowly. The primary way to win at X-Wing became "get a few points, preserve your own at all costs." The current bumping rules play into that, somewhat. If the penalty for getting bumped is losing a few points, why would you ever risk that? The right answer was almost always to play it safe. These rules changes--random order after dials, bumping, etc--all seem targeted at removing those roadblocks that cause people to avoid playing the game. I was super skeptical by the random order after dials thing, but in conjunction with the proposed bumping changes, I think I'm ok with it. Is this a perfect solution? Probably not. Will we see a shift in what ships/lists are viable? Almost certainly. Will this necessitate a round--or several rounds--of points updates to adjust to the new reality? Sure! Are players going to have to relearn some aspects of the game? Abso-loving-lutely. But I'm seeing it as a step in the right direction.
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Nov 5, 2021 16:38
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Radical changes just thrown out will always be jarring, especially when they're not dressed up as a new edition. Regardless of one's thoughts on the changes, their communication has been absolute dogshit. edit: \/ \/ I'm on board with getting a pity focus/calculate if bumping, but shooting at range 0 is such a radical change \/ \/
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Nov 5, 2021 16:48
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I will also say after teaching a few different people to play in the last few months, self bumping, and as a result losing actions/shots/ships feels real bad for new players. Obviously for competitive play the answer is "git gud" but if AMG's objective is to make the game less unforgiving/more fun for newer players in order to keep them around and expand the playerbase, making bumping less punishing isn't the worst idea in the world.
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Nov 5, 2021 16:48
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I have literally never played a game of x-wing where my opponent "avoids playing the game". I have never gotten that argument but maybe I am just a basic scrub. Like I said, I almost get where they are going, making bumping a little less punishing, fine, but shooting at range 0 is pure uncut dog poo poo.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:00
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X-Wing 2.5: Darth Vader losing because he got bumped is maybe the most thematic thing there is.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:06
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enigmahfc posted:I have literally never played a game of x-wing where my opponent "avoids playing the game". I have never gotten that argument but maybe I am just a basic scrub. Slow play is incredibly common in tournament games. Fortressing, avoiding actual engagement until the perfect shot is lined up, etc. are pretty common too, but for some people, they think that is playing the game. Of course you never see it in the movies...
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Nov 5, 2021 17:11
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alg posted:Slow play is incredibly common in tournament games. Fortressing, avoiding actual engagement until the perfect shot is lined up, etc. are pretty common too, but for some people, they think that is playing the game. Of course you never see it in the movies... Oh, I guess there is that. I have always just bum-rushed people playing like that but i also play VERY few people who do that. But I also haven't played much in over a year so I have no idea what HIGH LEVEL play is like now.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:23
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imo people will be more conservative after ROAD is implemented.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:26
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flavour defences of bumping seem pretty weak to me, it's a very goofy mechanic (the effects really do feel like the ships are bumping off each other, and I don't think that kind of slapstick comedy is what the game is mostly going for) and it's a constant reminder of the fact that the game is trying to emulate a 3d engagement on a 2d plane that said it's also a core part of how the game works, making big changes to it means throwing off the balance of everything else in the game, so it's the kind of change you should only be making in the context of redoing the core game mechanics entirely imo
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Nov 5, 2021 17:53
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All bumps should be like when you collide bump a huge ship in epic, you just instantly die depending on the relative size disparity between the two ships.
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Nov 5, 2021 17:58
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I always took bumping as sort of like you almost collide, so you can’t take actions or shoot that ship because you too busy do dodging that ship, which leaves you open to others shooting at you.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:52
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Honestly, I’m not that disgusted by something like “if you bump, roll one attack die, and suffer it’s effects. Skip your perform action step, and gain one focus token. Roll one fewer attack die, to a minimum of 1. You may only target ships in your firing arc at range 0 or 1.” Planning phase: if you are at range 0 of a ship or obstacle, you cannot select a red maneuver.” Bumping is still something to avoid, but doesn’t just render your ship useless for that round. It still rewards blocking.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:15
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Margin of victory will always be a deal-breaker for me. I have seen and played in tons of games where it is 3 aces against something like a droid swarm. You can't joust the swarm so you end up spending the whole match manoeuvring to avoid getting slaughtered. If the swarm player is good you will end up winning by just a few points. Now that is considered a tie.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:19
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in the 8 or so years (whenever this game started) i Have played X-Wing, I have never bothered to understand MoV and SoS. People have explained it to me whether I wanted them to or not, and then I promptly forget how to calculate it. I have had people trying to math out stuff like that before and during a game and I'm all, dude just move your toy ship wtf.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:31
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I think I'm just going to quietly play armada until this poo poo is fully sorted out. Like someone else said this slow drip of maybe or perhaps this changes from AMG is exhausting. Find a better way to communicate with your players other than hoping someone hastily transcribes a 2 hour stream you put on in the middle of a work day for Christ's sake
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Nov 5, 2021 19:42
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banned from Starbucks posted:I think I'm just going to quietly play armada until this poo poo is fully sorted out. Like someone else said this slow drip of maybe or perhaps this changes from AMG is exhausting. Find a better way to communicate with your players other than hoping someone hastily transcribes a 2 hour stream you put on in the middle of a work day for Christ's sake The lack of clear, coherent communication stream is a big, big part of the problem. I can't help but think they're setting themselves up for failure by leaking random rules changes one at a time without talking about their goals and without giving us a clear, comprehensive set of the supporting rules.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:03
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hold on a minute, i want to come back to this post:ConfusedUs posted:Rolling for First Player every round is mildly problematic. "largely deterministic" excuse me. excuse me. how many dice rolls are involved in a game of X-Wing, again?
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Nov 5, 2021 20:08
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:hold on a minute, i want to come back to this post: That's the wrong question. I am not saying luck does not exist or ever matter. Luck is an aspect of play. It's entirely possible--almost certain, really--to run into luck-based situations throughout the course of any given game. The trick is to make sure that doesn't happen at a moment that determines the outcome of the game. Good players minimize luck as an influencing factor through superior tactics, positioning, and strategic understanding of the meta. Great players do it extremely well. This is how the same players are consistently in the top cuts and as tournament winners. Paul Heaver didn't win three consecutive World's because he got lucky. He won because he was better than his opponents at a tactical and strategic level. This results in a game that, at its highest levels, is one where luck is a marginal influence on the outcome of the game. Instead, it becomes a puzzle where the person who can accurately visualize the most turns into the future is the one who wins. At my best, I could regularly see about three turns into the future and plot my moves accordingly. Sometimes four. Edit: Random turn order after dials throws an unavoidable luck-based mechanic into the game that can have far-reaching effects. This is why I hated it. But now that I see the rules that mitigate the swing-like nature of that (namely, new bumping rules), I am far less concerned, because a good player will (probably) be able to plot out a superior course of action that minimizes the risks and capitalizes on the turns where they gain advantage. ConfusedUs fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 20:32
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I'm not saying skill doesn't matter, but I think it's absurd to call a game with so many dice rolls "deterministic". I'm curious, do you think X-Wing would be a better game if luck were totally removed? If it's best when it's closest to chess, why do hits and evades need to be determined by dice?
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Nov 5, 2021 20:41
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I'm not saying skill doesn't matter, but I think it's absurd to call a game with so many dice rolls "deterministic".
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Nov 5, 2021 20:54
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I'm not saying skill doesn't matter, but I think it's absurd to call a game with so many dice rolls "deterministic". For one, I said “largely deterministic” For second: I’ve had serious discussions of what a diceless Xwing would look like. 🤣
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Nov 5, 2021 21:06
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Not too long ago, i rolled 4 dice that came up blank. I used Heroic to roll those into...4 more blanks. This happened twice in one game.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:38
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enigmahfc posted:Not too long ago, i rolled 4 dice that came up blank. I used Heroic to roll those into...4 more blanks. We've all been there, man.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:42
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Here is a good video from Oli who is the last world champ that kind of sums up everything I am feeling about the changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6cDuEqrlO0
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Nov 5, 2021 21:57
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I'm gonna be getting some popcorn if this thread turns into the STAW thread Mk II, it's gonna be great, that thread was such a great read.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:53
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All I can really say is that as someone who hasn't played much X-Wing over the past few years, but would love to get back into it... absolutely none of these changes make me want to play this new version of X-Wing.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:57
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Acebuckeye13 posted:All I can really say is that as someone who hasn't played much X-Wing over the past few years, but would love to get back into it... absolutely none of these changes make me want to play this new version of X-Wing. …or just wait and see what this new edition might do? I do think it’s annoying the 2.0 version requires you to go online to check point values, hopefully I can just print out a recent list to put in the box.
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Nov 6, 2021 00:42
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JazzFlight posted:Yeah, I have like 1 each of every model from 1.0 and then bought the upgrade kits but never unpacked em. I only want to play kitchen table casual style, so should I unpack and sort the 2.0 stuff and try to stick to that to play or just keep to 1.0 rules? Not only are points values not on the cards, but the upgrades each ship can take isn't on as well. Also some pilots in the same ship have different upgrade options other than just an elite talent. This is really good as a way to balance when there is an official app with all the information everyone can go to. But when that app gets mothballed and all official documents still point to that as the correct source even when it's wrong, then we get problems. Floppychop fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 10, 2021 |
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Nov 6, 2021 01:00
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JazzFlight posted:Yeah, I have like 1 each of every model from 1.0 and then bought the upgrade kits but never unpacked em. I only want to play kitchen table casual style, so should I unpack and sort the 2.0 stuff and try to stick to that to play or just keep to 1.0 rules? 1.0 is fine for kitchen table messing around. Im guessing you arent going to troll each other with massive power creep lists that plagued the last years of 1.0 Or just play with the 2.0 pre built cards they give.
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Nov 6, 2021 01:14
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