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(sigh) well maybe the BBB will get through eventually
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Nov 6, 2021 04:24
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Buckwheat Sings posted:
Infrastructure just passed
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Nov 6, 2021 04:24
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morothar posted:I’d love to see an expanded analogy that explains how “taking healthcare away from millions” is merely ‘something worse’ relative to “squabbling over how to spend $T on beneficial causes” They're both bad op. I mean are you asking me for a list of everything that Democratic Party members are poo poo about? Climate, cops, housing, college, etc. etc. Once again, they are both bad. So I'm not going to support either. You don't have to, either, as well! I mean if I were you I'd ask what it means when the leaders of my party literally want a strong Republican party, there might be some clues there.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:24
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icantfindaname posted:The problem is that politics should be based in class-conscious self interest, not in middle-class philanthropic concern for unfortunate others You're in luck, that's our current system!
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Nov 6, 2021 04:26
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Zeron posted:Bipartisan Infrastructure bill has passed, rip the BBB. Only concession the progressives got before folding was a written promise that those couple of moderates will, maybe, vote on the BBB later, worth exactly as much as the paper it was written on. Amazing how completely worthless the progressive caucus is. they technically aren't breaking their promise if manchin and/or sinema sink the bill in the senate and it never comes to a vote
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Nov 6, 2021 04:26
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Well, that's a hell of a gamble, and I think it is an incredibly stupid gamble to take. All leverage is gone and dependent entirely on the goodwill of a group of obstructionist fuckheads. If BBB doesn't pass (and without substantial changes from the current version) then I'll never vote for a Democrat again.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:26
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a.lo posted:guys don't worry BBB will be passed by christmas. A christmas miracle one would say I don't know what's worse; bbb being dead or something called bbb eventually being passed that actually sucks rear end.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The conflict between Progressives and House moderates was whether to pass it today or after the CBO score. Yes, I saw that reported. And since my eyes are connected to my brain, I’m capable of asserting that house moderates don’t give a gently caress about CBO scores so much as they want to decouple these bills by any means necessary. So again, why would they want to do that unless it’s to take a hammer to everything in BBB not named SALT?
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Nov 6, 2021 04:28
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Sharkie posted:They're both bad op. Nope. I’m asking how actively attempting to take healthcare away from millions is merely a worse form of squabbling over how to spend a few $T on largely good causes. And in consequence I suppose, how voting for the party that does the latter isn’t a form of harm reduction over voting for the party that does the former.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:29
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Buckwheat Sings posted:gently caress the moderates. They act like its still the 80s and that people still care about bipartisanship which is funny as gently caress considering we just got out of Trump land. The Progressives don't want either bill to die. Nobody actually opposes the bipartisan bill on the merits (because it is 95% just "hard" infrastructure that was taken out of the original $4.2 trillion BBB plan and put into it's own bill), they were holding it for assurances to get the BBB vote. The whole reason they are going for this agreement is to get momentum on getting both bills out of the House. They won't make the deal to get momentum on passing them just to kill both of them. The members who oppose the BBB would love for someone else to tank it for them.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:29
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Sanguinia posted:If them getting blamed is what's destined to happen, the logical argument might be that they were about to lose this leverage anyway. If things descend into blame gaming in the media before anything gets accomplished, and we assume they would inevitably lose the media fight, their leverage dies anyway. So the better move is to put it on the table, get what you can get for it, and toss the dice. Either it all turns to poo poo and you get blamed, which would have happened if you didn't try as well, or good things happen and you reap the benefits because you played ball at the key moment rather than holding out for better odds. Maybe that makes sense if this is like, the final negotiation of all time. But since it's not, and this now a guarantee that TheIncredulousHulk posted:Nobody's ever going to take any of her threats seriously again Probably it was dumb to throw away any and all leverage on this and also anything else that might ever happen again.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:29
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How long can a bill sit at the executive before it needs to be signed/vetoed? The only way I see the BBB not being dead (rest in peace) is if they go with not signing BIF until BBB is on the desk with it. I dont trust Biden to be that clever, though.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:29
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Zeron posted:Bipartisan Infrastructure bill has passed, rip the BBB. Only concession the progressives got before folding was a written promise that those couple of moderates will, maybe, vote on the BBB later, worth exactly as much as the paper it was written on. Amazing how completely worthless the progressive caucus is. Pelosi knew she had the R votes to make them not matter. the only purpose this whole charade served was to humiliate the CPC.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:30
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Doesn't the BIP allow for the privatization of some public infrastructure as well? Just a terrible bill on that alone.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:31
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Neurolimal posted:How long can a bill sit at the executive before it needs to be signed/vetoed? 10 days, then it becomes law whether he signs it or not.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:32
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BBB is toast, RIP.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:32
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Worthless loving cowards.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:32
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i am going to take a break from following this thread for a bit and get drunk because if i dont then my mental and emotional health are going to collapse, peace out for a while nerds
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Nov 6, 2021 04:33
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Moderates want the SALT stuff, but I doubt Manchin cares. He’s going to get the bill he wants and that will be the ballgame
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Nov 6, 2021 04:33
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Sanguinia posted:In terms of only political power dynamics, its probably worth considering that up until now the media coverage of this fight on mainstream sources has been all about Manchin and Sinema vs Biden and Progressives. The House shuffle has been ignored outside political outlets like The Hill and whatnot. After Virginia, there is zero doubt in my mind that if Progressives had spiked Infrastructure tonight every story tomorrow would have been about them being the bad guy. By holding their ground tonight long enough to get an explicitly worded promise to vote on the bill as-is on a specific day, if nothing else they've kept the public eye on the Moderates and off themselves. They can say honestly that they did their part, and if the Moderates reneg on their black-and-white written deal for any reason other than the out they made for themselves, the CBO score, that is then the story every news show runs. I don't believe this is possible. The progressives are by their very nature antithetical to the party's established interests, and so they are, and ust always be the bad guys. It hasn't coalesced entirely yet, but even Virginia's abysmal results are getting blamed on vague "wokeness" and such because it's inconceivable that a centrist might fail to appeal to people. It has to be the outsiders, and since we're trying to court the less insane republicans, that really only leaves one group. The progressives don't set the media narrative, hell, even the mainstream democrats don't. The hack gap is wildly in favor of whatever the republicans say, and they'll say "socialist!" and so the only thing the party can do (since it can't go against the establishment that it serves) is to blame progressives. No matter what happens. Sanguinia posted:The Progressives looked at the board, decided the hand they had was a losing one, and cashed it out for one they hope still has a chance to win. It's that simple. I think that's their reasoning, yes. Stickman posted:You're in luck, that's our current system! 
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Nov 6, 2021 04:34
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Even if the BBB gets passed in a form essentially as last reported (unlikely) this is just an awful look for the Progressive Caucus. Talking poo poo for weeks about only voting for the bipartisan infrastructure bill after getting firm commitments about BBB and then everyone but the Squad caves.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:34
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Absolutely shameful that anyone would suggest Dems as the party of harm reduction or the lesser of two evils. I'm going to quote myself: quote:
Are we shameful? Is stripping our independence and abusing us not harm? To be clear, I support killing the bill unless both pass.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:35
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paranoid randroid posted:Pelosi knew she had the R votes to make them not matter. the only purpose this whole charade served was to humiliate the CPC. The CPC has 95 members, there absolutely would not have been enough Republican votes to make up for it. Either the CPC has no control over the caucus and knew they wouldn't listen anyway, or they knowingly gave in to kill the BBB. Either way they've proven that they have no teeth or integrity. Why should anyone go along with the progressive agenda when they know that they will cave in every single time rather than following through with sinking a bill? Securing the BBB vote in the House means literally nothing, now that it's separated from the bipartisan bill it'll just be sunk by Manchin and Sinema in the Senate. Even if she had somehow had the Republican votes to make up for it, they should have forced that and made her pass the bill with huge Dem/Rep defections.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:Moderates want the SALT stuff, but I doubt Manchin cares. He’s going to get the bill he wants and that will be the ballgame They're in luck then because they'll definitely get it, just in a different bill they demand it added to later
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Nov 6, 2021 04:37
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JT Jag posted:Even if the BBB gets passed in a form essentially as last reported (unlikely) this is just an awful look for the Progressive Caucus. Talking poo poo for weeks about only voting for the bipartisan infrastructure bill after getting firm commitments about BBB and then everyone but the Squad caves. Yeah, they showed that they can be safely ignored. They sacrificed all their leverage after months of insisting they'd only vote on the bills in tandem. I'm expecting that the Dems will likely lose both houses in 2022 now, and then the White House in 2024 to Pence, DeSantis or worse. VA gov was just a sneak preview. Completely from their own doing.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:38
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WTF. Was expecting both bills to be pushed to next week at this point. Gotta hand it to them though. My bar was basically on the ground, and they still managed to fumble and disappoint.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:39
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morothar posted:Nope. I’m asking how actively attempting to take healthcare away from millions is merely a worse form of squabbling over how to spend a few $T on largely good causes. How can you say the Democratic Party sucks, when they have not infact skinned thousands of people alive, like the Assyrian Empire. I demand you answer.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:39
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Judakel posted:Doesn't the BIP allow for the privatization of some public infrastructure as well? Just a terrible bill on that alone. No, they were floating asset recycling (which is not necessarily privatization - although it can be - it usually involves selling airplanes/trucks/boats or renting out warehouses) as a way to pay for it without raising taxes initially. But, they decided to just go with budget gimmickery that ends up increasing the debt by $220 billion anyway. Neurolimal posted:How long can a bill sit at the executive before it needs to be signed/vetoed? Pocket veto takes effect after 10 days + Congress is out of session.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:39
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paranoid randroid posted:Pelosi knew she had the R votes to make them not matter. the only purpose this whole charade served was to humiliate the CPC. If the CPC held strong, she would have needed to peel off far more Republicans, and it also wouldn't give us yet another example of impotent progressives shooting themselves in the foot, even if Pelosi somehow pulled that off. I can only assume that the CPC started falling apart as the day went on, and Jayapal had to get some kind of deal together because if Pelosi called their bluff and brought it to the floor, Jayapal had no guarantee she could keep anyone but the squad as No votes. What a lot of loving cowards. vvv Hellblazer187 posted:Did the entire CPC cave? Where can I find the actual vote counts? I guess it doesn't really matter, though. The CPC as a block with any power is totally done. All except Pressley, AOC, Omar, Tliab, Bowman, Bush. The usual. BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Nov 6, 2021 |
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Nov 6, 2021 04:41
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Did the entire CPC cave? Where can I find the actual vote counts? I guess it doesn't really matter, though. The CPC as a block with any power is totally done.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:45
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https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1456803572625068040The leadership of the Progressive Caucus caved because Biden said "just trust me bro" I don't even know what to say
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Nov 6, 2021 04:46
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JT Jag posted:https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1456803572625068040The leadership of the Progressive Caucus caved because Biden said "just trust me bro" "lmfao" Edit: The superpower of democratic presidents is to phone people who have leverage and tell them to give up and they inexplicably comply
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Nov 6, 2021 04:47
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Hellblazer187 posted:Did the entire CPC cave? Where can I find the actual vote counts? I guess it doesn't really matter, though. The CPC as a block with any power is totally done. https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein...ingawful.com%2F
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Nov 6, 2021 04:48
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Hellblazer187 posted:Did the entire CPC cave? Where can I find the actual vote counts? I guess it doesn't really matter, though. The CPC as a block with any power is totally done. Six Democrats against, 13 Republicans for. They had just enough hall passes for the Squad (I assume).
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Nov 6, 2021 04:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, they were floating asset recycling (which is not necessarily privatization - although it can be - it usually involves selling airplanes/trucks/boats or renting out warehouses) as a way to pay for it without raising taxes initially. But, they decided to just go with budget gimmickery that ends up increasing the debt by $220 billion anyway. Wall Street wanted it, so it most likely would've been privatization.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:49
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Hellblazer187 posted:Did the entire CPC cave? Where can I find the actual vote counts? I guess it doesn't really matter, though. The CPC as a block with any power is totally done. Only 6 Dems voted against. 90% of the CPC voted for it because of the agreement to vote on BBB by the 15th. Judakel posted:Wall Street wanted it, so it most likely would've been privatization. Probably true. They never actually specified what it would be. Hilariously, the BBB in its current form spends $1.85 trillion and raises $1.9 trillion, so it lowers the deficit. While the BIF adds $220 billion.
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Nov 6, 2021 04:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Only 6 Dems voted against. 90% of the CPC voted for it because of the agreement to vote on BBB by the 15th. What are the punishments if they don't vote on the 3B by the 15th? Are we talking jail time, asset forfeiture, or what?
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Nov 6, 2021 04:53
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morothar posted:WTF. Was expecting both bills to be pushed to next week at this point. Why were you expecting that lol
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Nov 6, 2021 04:54
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I actually do believe the house moderates will live up to their end of the bargain and vote for BBB this month, but is there any other endgame here besides the senate butchering the bill to the point of worthlessness, or just voting it down outright behind Sinema and Manchin?
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Nov 6, 2021 04:54
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| # ? May 24, 2024 17:31 |
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Supreme Premier Trump is advocating for the progressives to FIght for the BBB and start the Marxist revolution
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Nov 6, 2021 04:55
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