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Thank you for all the help and encouragement. I am a terrible negotiator and have never successfully negotiated my compensation upwards. I have successfully talked myself out of jobs before by convincing myself I could make more somewhere else. I'm planning on replying to their offer email with the below tomorrow. Any suggestions? *** Thanks for the offer! <date> for the start date works great for me. I would be really excited if you upped your offered salary to 12k/month and bridged my experience for purposes of PTO. Since I would be joining <company> as a Software Engineer Senior III I would hope for that seniority to be recognized at a rate of 0.75 years of seniority for each year of professional experience for purposes of calculating PTO. I have 11 years of experience which would mean starting with 7 years of tenure for the purposes of counting towards <company>'s vacation policy and would reach the 10 year milestone after 3 years at <company>, on <date>, 2024. If I remember right from the interview, <company> adds 6 days of PTO at the 5 and 10 year marks so that would mean I would start with 24 days of PTO. Best regards, LLSix
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Nov 1, 2021 02:21
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Hi I've really enjoyed getting to know the team and learning about the team here at SoftCorp. I know I'd be a valuable addition and able to contribute immediately with my 11 years of experience in the field. While I've evaluated your offer, at this time I need a floor of $148k to move. I'd like to explore how we can close this gap. Cheers LL6 Don't even touch vacation and benefits until you lock down salary. You can trade the extra $5k I gave you in your letter for an extra week of benefits. Honestly if it were me I'd swing for $150 Keep in mind you're their TOP PICK, 8K a year is nothing to them. The guy approving your salary gets a 35% annual bonus every year
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Nov 1, 2021 02:43
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I agree with Hadlock; keep your request simple and focused on salary. If they won't budge, or if they give a little less than what you asked for, then you can start trying to make up the difference with PTO. Unless PTO is more important to you than salary, then lead with that first.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:41
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Question for the thread - Is it important or even necessary at all to give a reason for requesting more in base salary? Is it considered impolite? I got a decent offer tonight for a really excellent option and I'm pretty happy with it as is but I figure if I could go up another 10k in salary (185k -> 195) why not try. I was talking to my dad about this and he's old school and was pretty certain I'd need to have some kind of reasoning to present for it, whereas I (based on what I could recall in the thread) was pretty sure that wasn't necessary. Just saying "if I could get 195 that would make me happy" or something along those lines. I do have a current accepted offer (which was changed after the fact so I've soured on it) which I could bring up as well. And potentially another offer incoming. But I feel like it just doesn't matter and if my ask is reasonable I shouldn't really need to pull out these other factors unless they start playing hardball. If they are topped out for the number and can't push them I'll go with it though, it seems like a pretty good offer already.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:30
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If your offer changed after the fact then you don't have an offer, you have an open negotiation. Also that sounds like a poo poo place to work.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:36
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Nope. Giving reasoning only weakens your position. An awesome person with lots of options doesn't need to bother with a business case for why he needs $205K instead of $185K. He just says "I need $205K," or maybe "sorry, $185K isn't enough, what else can you do?" Mentioning that you're considering other offers is usually helpful. Just don't ever tell them how much the other offers are.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:37
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Eric the Mauve posted:
Yeah, that's your reason. You don't need to give details.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:42
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Arquinsiel posted:If your offer changed after the fact then you don't have an offer, you have an open negotiation. Yeah I'm kind of pissed off because it requires relocation but I was told I could work remotely until then and get paid, but due to it being international this turned out not to be the case. I gave notice under the assumption that I would start october 18 but the start date and relocation was pushed to January and I'm kinda pissed, because I missed the vesting of some shares at my previous place etc. On top of no salary for 2.5 months. So I'm not really too worried about walking away from that. I've rehashed this a bit in a few threads here though so I'm probably getting repetitive with it  Eric the Mauve posted:Nope. Giving reasoning only weakens your position. An awesome person with lots of options doesn't need to bother with a business case for why he needs $205K instead of $185K. He just says "I need $205K," or maybe "sorry, $185K isn't enough, what else can you do?" Nice, this was what my instincts were - all based on this thread! Prior to it I would have thought the same way as my dad as well. Thanks for confirming it! If I want 200k should I go with that or try for 205 and then "settle"?
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Nov 3, 2021 04:46
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priznat posted:Nice, this was what my instincts were - all based on this thread! Prior to it I would have thought the same way as my dad as well. Thanks for confirming it! If I want 200k should I go with that or try for 205 and then "settle"? I gave a reason for why I needed more money when I took my current job, but I'm not sure I'd do it again. Looking at how co-workers talk when working on B2B transactions, I feel like that'll really be my template for this next move. I have a bad habit of slipping into my folksy/personable/customer-service persona when I'm doing interviews but I think that needs to be left at the door during Negotiation Time. Not that I need to be a dick about it, but at that point it's Just Business. Edit: Just from reading the thread, aim a bit over what you want in case they try and negotiate down. If they don't, then great! - you got a bit more than you would have been happy with!
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Nov 3, 2021 05:30
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Zarin posted:I gave a reason for why I needed more money when I took my current job, but I'm not sure I'd do it again. For sure, I have a tendency to talk to fill space especially when I'm nervous so I can potentially give the game away, and by just keeping it to "just the facts" I can also limit any damage I might self inflict. Once I get rambling look out. Good call on the overshoot a little bit, I'll go with that.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:08
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Zarin posted:I have a bad habit of slipping into my folksy/personable/customer-service persona when I'm doing interviews but I think that needs to be left at the door during Negotiation Time. I think the trick might be to keep that persona but not budge about the fundamentals. Have some stalling phrases (learned from this thread) handy, like "I'll have to learn more about the specifics of the position", or "it depends on the full compensation package", or "what's your range?" as a counter, if you need to keep the conversation going without saying "you're going to have to offer a number first, not it!".
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Nov 3, 2021 11:31
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No offer yet but adding myself to the list of people who learned not to say a number first from this thread. Company HR person seemed to realise that my skills were well over what they were actually expecting from applicants mid-call and stressed that the number she quoted was the baseline and it goes up if they like you. TY thread for repeating this One Simple Trick to stack more paper.
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Nov 4, 2021 11:50
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Just sent a counter back to my offer, after some light pleasantries just asked for +20K on the base salary. I'd be happy with that, the total comp is well in line with what I've seen elsewhere. It's not at the level of the FAANGs but the lack of relocation/commute/time away from family easily makes up the difference. Plus working with people I know well and like from a previous job so that's a large bonus. I feel for the HR recruiters they are just so slammed and having a tough go of it. I try to keep it easy on them by giving them my schedule plans for responses and sticking to it. Talking to the HR recruiter yesterday before I gave my offer and she was very appreciative on how easy going I am with the whole thing and I just said well hey it's how I'd want to be treated. Sounds like with the big hiring frenzy people are being kinda jerks.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:26
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priznat posted:Just sent a counter back to my offer, after some light pleasantries just asked for +20K on the base salary. I'd be happy with that, the total comp is well in line with what I've seen elsewhere. It's not at the level of the FAANGs but the lack of relocation/commute/time away from family easily makes up the difference. Plus working with people I know well and like from a previous job so that's a large bonus. To be fair, most companies were jerks first when it was an employer's market
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Nov 5, 2021 19:04
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Chaotic Flame posted:To be fair, most companies were jerks first when it was an employer's market +1000000 gently caress 'em
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Nov 5, 2021 19:58
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Eric the Mauve posted:+1000000
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Nov 5, 2021 20:10
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Companies sowing: haha hell yeah Companies reaping: wait that’s mean 
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Nov 5, 2021 20:15
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Eric the Mauve posted:+1000000
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Nov 5, 2021 20:28
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Gonna weigh in on the HR side here: gently caress em.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:34
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I mean, treat people with respect while their doing their jobs but absolutely maximize every last thing you can get from them.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:51
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Remember it's the system that's bullshit, not the guy fronting it.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:54
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Lockback posted:I mean, treat people with respect while their doing their jobs but absolutely maximize every last thing you can get from them. Yeah this is my thought, gently caress the company but be nice and considerate to the people you're dealing with. It can only help you get a stronger deal if they have a favourable (personal) opinion of you. Try to take the company for all you can of course. In other news I got an offer from another company and it was hilariously low, like 100k off the total comp. It was actually WORSE than what I was making at my last place and that was loving garbage. The recruiter said "well you didn't give a range" and I'm like "yeah but you are paying REALLY low by standards of senior positions in that area, just so you know". It's fine I wasn't really planning on going there anyway it was more of a potential backup/leverage offer. I doubt they could come back with anything competitive based on where they started. And it seems just kind of flat out insulting they would open with something that low. We left it that he would go back to the team but honestly I would be fine just cutting ties now.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:01
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Does anyone have information on negotiating in the health care industry? I applied for an oncology pharmacist position and received an email asking for an interview the following day. I anticipated a screening interview and ended up on my back foot when they asked my experience, salary expectations, and potential starting date. I KNOW I handicapped myself by providing a salary range, but I did NOT provide them my previous salary. The range I gave them included a minimum $15K pay increase from my previous position. From a quick google search, it looks like I would be asking for absolute top line pay, around $140K to $150K. However, I really don't know what my position makes nationwide. Should I just start at $150K and see where the hospital system blinks?
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Nov 6, 2021 05:21
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DTaeKim posted:Does anyone have information on negotiating in the health care industry? Yes
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Nov 6, 2021 06:26
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DTaeKim posted:Does anyone have information on negotiating in the health care industry? Shoot for the moon my friend
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Nov 6, 2021 07:32
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Start at 165 and walk back from there
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Nov 6, 2021 07:49
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My buddy posted this in Discord today and it made me think of this thread: https://twitter.com/Firr/status/1456324664628846599?s=20 (It is a thread) I'm skeptical that it's real, but I Want To Believe~
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Nov 6, 2021 08:48
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Zarin posted:My buddy posted this in Discord today and it made me think of this thread: It’s not impossible. I’ve had the same company reach out multiple times after I left. Mainly because it’s a niche role so if you have a decade of experience, you’re going to get approached regularly. At a different company the recruiter who started a week after I left approached me (in the week after I had just left!) with a line like: “I work at an amazing company which really lines up well with your skills and experience. We’d really like you to have a talk with us and see if you’d enjoy working for us”. I called my buddy there and told him to start hiring literate recruiters.
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Nov 6, 2021 11:44
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Zarin posted:My buddy posted this in Discord today and it made me think of this thread: 
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Nov 6, 2021 12:21
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I was thinking about that super low offer I got and one thing the HR person said was "since you didn't give a range" like it was somehow my fault that they were so far off on what my salary expectations were. I'm not crazy right, it is them who are dumb? I had specifically asked early in the process the person who originally contacted me and is the site manager (though not directly involved in the hiring process) how is the compensation and is it better than the previous place? And he said yeah it's definitely competitive. Then I get this offer and it is just as crap as my previous place! I'm kind of annoyed not only that it was a bit of a waste of time for me but it also will potentially make me look bad to the people who were keen to get me onboard but not part of the salary decisions like oh, what's his deal? The thing is I don't think I am all that off because I have a couple other offers that are in the range that they told me was too high. So really it is them who is dumb. Wish there was a better way to gauge if they pay what is considered industry standard or are another one of these cheap companies relying on people not knowing their worth. Kind of tempted to put something on glassdoor regarding the interview process etc just so it can potentially help someone else. It's not a huge company so there isn't a lot of reference data on them there.
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Nov 6, 2021 22:26
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IMO, just move on if they aren’t willing to get in the same range as similar competing offers. “I had other offers for substantially more money” is an explanation any sane hiring team should understand.
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Nov 6, 2021 22:44
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Glassdoor is a waste of time, if you buy $2000 in advertising on their website you can "contest" bad reviews, which most employers opt to do If HR lowballs you, just tell them X is your floor
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Nov 6, 2021 22:50
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If they didn't bump up the offer to be competitive after you responded then obviously they were never going to be competitive even if you gave them a range. I guess you would have saved yourself, and the company, time by giving a range but it's still not in your best interest to do so. If the HR person is complaining about wasted time, then it's on the company to give a range. To be blunt, any HR complaining about the interview process is garbage. They have all the information and control the process. They could make it more transparent if they wanted to, it's just not in the companies interest to do so.
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Nov 6, 2021 22:53
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Yeah Glassdoor is just a 21st century BBB for employees.
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Nov 6, 2021 22:53
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Yeah, that all makes good sense.. I'm still a bit flabbergasted though, like they wanted someone with some really deep experience that someone with 5 years in the industry would simply not have. Along with being fairly self directed. And by looking at my CV it should be pretty obvious I would be requiring considerably more than what's on offer. Really really odd. There's no way they find anyone to fill that role for that salary, it just simply will not happen. The company has a 4.5B market cap it isn't some tiny startup or anything either. Ah well I don't want to seem like I'm pissed off about it or anything, I'm not I'm just kind of baffled how they could think that would be a good offer, lol.
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Nov 6, 2021 22:58
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Just put it out of mind and move on. Most largeish companies I’ve worked for have plenty of hr data available for positions. The requisitions get opened and approved with salary budget numbers in mind by multiple departments before the job even gets posted.
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Nov 6, 2021 23:11
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priznat posted:I'm still a bit flabbergasted though, like they wanted someone with some really deep experience that someone with 5 years in the industry would simply not have.
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Nov 6, 2021 23:35
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Yeah I had a similar experience where I was the only specialist in a very niche tech they could find who also knew how much they were paying out the nose for consultants. They refused to budge a dollar above $pitiful so i shrugged and walked away. The manager I would have been working for seemed like he knew it was coming and didn’t sound at all surprised when I told him what happened. This was in the before times too There’s just going to be a lot of HR shops out there that haven’t gotten the memo that the game has changed. They’ll keep failing to hire decent talent and blame everyone and everything but themselves. Don’t worry about it too much
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Nov 8, 2021 01:37
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PIZZA.BAT posted:There’s just going to be a lot of HR shops out there that haven’t gotten the memo that the game has changed. They’ll keep failing to hire decent talent and blame everyone and everything but themselves. Don’t worry about it too much Amazing how this is true all the way from tech to retail, isn't it?
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Nov 8, 2021 05:36
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One of the more common experiences in business: “We need to do Y for $X or else Z happens” “No that’s too much, we’ll be okay” *Z happens* “YY will cost $XXXX to fix Z” “Are you kidding? That’s going to dent our yearly numbers how could you not have fixed it before it happened????”
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Nov 8, 2021 05:44
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