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VH4Ever posted:If you honestly think Manchin's "do the vote on the bipartisan NOW and I'll deal" thing was honest or in any way in good faith then lol, bless your heart. Unrelated but I have some land in Florida that might interest you if you'd like to hear more. No, I don't believe Manchin for a second. I'm willing to let him surprise me. My point was that Manchin clearly seemed ready to kill both bills. This way they salvage one.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:25
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Seph posted:I disagree with the premise that everyone wants those things. Lots of people have been brainwashed into thinking anything the government does is bad, so they can't imagine a world where something like universal healthcare would be good, even though they admit the current situation is terrible. Then there's also an element of spite and/or racism where people don't want the government to help the wrong kind of person (whether it's poor people, black people, immigrants, whatever). Finally there are the people who had to suffer, so they'll do the best they can to make other people suffer. Even with ostensibly left-leaning folks you'll hear things like "well I had to pay my student loans, and now we're just going to forgive them for everyone?" I see this sentiment (the bolded part) channeled a lot more by liberals purporting to speak on behalf of the right than I see it originating among the right. Universal programs are almost always universally more popular than means-tested programs created to benefit smaller classes of people, whether the latter is advance tax refunds going out to parents or tax cuts for richie homeowners. What you call "anti-progress people" could be those who are working for less than a living wage, those in medical debt because they earned $19k/year and thus fell off the Medicaid cliff, or those who can't figure out how to qualify for urban rentals that require income 3x the cost. People are desperate, and don't understand why others deserve relief when they themselves are ignored & left out to dry. Further, I've seen plenty of liberals talk about the wrong kind of people getting healthcare or government benefits, whether based on their political beliefs or their "lifestyles" or their geographic locations. It's become a weird liberal rhetoric device to say "Sure, I believe in a beneficient society, but we can't have one because those people over there say we can't." Especially since there's no underlying impetus to, you know, help change minds & hearts if that were truly the case, instead of being an excuse for regulatory capture & a donor-driven political system. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 6, 2021 |
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Nov 6, 2021 16:29
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Deteriorata posted:No, I don't believe Manchin for a second. I'm willing to let him surprise me. Yeah well, maybe that makes some people feel better but it doesn't make me feel better. My guess is when the election returns roll in this time next year you'll start to feel the impending dread I already do right now. We're F U C K E D in the long term, friend. hosed. The Dems made it so.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:31
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Bellmaker posted:Did folks really think progressives were going to shoot the metaphorical hostage? Have they ever scuttled anything? Largely because they've never been in a position to scuttle anything before. Folks thought that once they had power they'd want to keep it, but that's just not the Democrat way apparently
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Nov 6, 2021 16:31
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If I was sitting in Congress I’d have a really hard time voting down these bills because it would feel like I’m just doing that republican thing where I’m preventing anything from ever happening. What exactly does the progressive caucus have to gain when the Manchins of the world don’t want a single thing to change from the moment Trump stopped being president? Nothing you do is going to change them. You just have to primary the radical centrists and moderates where you can. The issue with that is America is inherently conservative and they seem to double down on that the more their ideology gets proven false.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:34
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Willa Rogers posted:I see this sentiment (the bolded part) channeled a lot more by liberals purporting to speak on behalf of the right than I see it originating among the right. "What if we try and make them say no and fight them on it?" "No"
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Nov 6, 2021 16:34
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haveblue posted:Largely because they've never been in a position to scuttle anything before. Folks thought that once they had power they'd want to keep it, but that's just not the Democrat way apparently hmmm I think Pelosi probably remembers one time in particular the chicken poo poo progressive caucus didn't follow through
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Nov 6, 2021 16:34
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I dont know where you're getting the idea that Manchin wanted to kill the BIF, as if that were even possible. That bill was a gift to Manchin and he absolutely wanted it passed, which is why he voted for it. Keeping it in limbo was absolutely leverage over him and now that leverage is gone, and the only thing progressives get in exchange is the right to never be taken seriously again.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:44
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A lot of really really great stuff in the BIF, definitely worth celebrating. Let's hope Biden is right about passing the BBBA, we are in his hands now.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:45
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How are u posted:Let's hope Biden is right about passing the BBBA, we are in his hands now. indeed we are all being groped by biden now  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 6, 2021 16:48
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Dubar posted:I dont know where you're getting the idea that Manchin wanted to kill the BIF, as if that were even possible. That bill was a gift to Manchin and he absolutely wanted it passed, which is why he voted for it. Keeping it in limbo was absolutely leverage over him and now that leverage is gone, and the only thing progressives get in exchange is the right to never be taken seriously again. This was an ego thing, and Manchin was more than willing to let the BIF die if that meant him caving to the House progressives. It was important to him, but not that important. He was willing to leave it all in limbo forever. Thus holding it back was no longer leverage for the BBB act.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:49
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-Blackadder- posted:This is what I've always heard/thought as well, but it never quite followed logically. If Democrats are giving people incremental pieces of all the things they want, in other words, they're giving people what they want, just not enough of it, and not fast enough for some people's tastes, and the Republicans are offering to not only, not give people the things they want, but also take away many of the things they already have, then how is the galaxy brain answer to the Democrats not moving fast enough to just throw up our hands and let Republicans run the show? If you run on hope and change and being the smart adults who know how to fix the healthcare system, win full control of the government, and then you don't fix it, people are going to doubt either your intentions or your ability or both. And they will be entirely correct to do so because the party with full control over the government can fix the healthcare system at any time but not only have you not done it, you haven't even done obvious no-brainers that every other country does like fix prices for prescription drugs. The average person doesn't necessarily know enough about policy to know how to fix healthcare, but they can tell when they're being insulted with bullshit excuses, and if you go from "Yes! We can!" before the election to "well due to the vagaries of allocating political capital among the various stakeholders vis a vis the quod erat demonstratum et cetera, you will see political realities dictate that we must incrementally approach the solution in the form of passing one bill every eight years for the next eight hundred years" they'll just again (correctly) become despondent over your ability or willingness to make significant improvements to their lives before their grandkids are in an old folks' home. And here comes a Republican used car salesman who says "see we tried Big Government and it didn't work, but I have a plan to increase competition and lower prices". Some people fall for that, some people just get depressed and stop bothering. This cuts against Republicans too right. Trump's GOP got crushed in 2018 after their promises on healthcare turned out to be so much hot air.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:55
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Woke up to the great news of BIF passing. Even if they were to pass this by itself, it would be a massive historic spending bill. Add BBB on top of that and you're looking at the biggest spending package since the New Deal.
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Nov 6, 2021 16:57
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Deteriorata posted:This was an ego thing, and Manchin was more than willing to let the BIF die if that meant him caving to the House progressives. It was important to him, but not that important. He was willing to leave it all in limbo forever. You can assume that, and you might even be right. But you have exactly as much evidence (none) as the assumption the rest of us are making that Manchin did want to pass the BIF and could have been pressured into passing the BBB as well. There was literally no other point to this entire charade of separating the BIF bill out other than to let Manchin and his ilk pass the stuff they did want while sinking the rest.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:02
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Let’s be real. They’ll rush this through the senate, pass it again in the house and the moderates will happily vote like they promised in the next bill, safe in the knowledge that it’ll die in the senate. The house moderates will tell the CPC ‘look we held up our promise it’s not our fault the senate didn’t let it through’ and next time the CPC will have any leverage it’s too late because the dems lost the midterms.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:03
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For what it's worth at least my local news today is blaming Moderates for the delays and intransigence. Also I just learned teacher's strikes are illgeal in this state which 
Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 6, 2021 |
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Nov 6, 2021 17:04
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Zeron posted:You can assume that, and you might even be right. But you have exactly as much evidence (none) as the assumption the rest of us are making that Manchin did want to pass the BIF and could have been pressured into passing the BBB as well. There was literally no other point to this entire charade of separating the BIF bill out other than to let Manchin and his ilk pass the stuff they did want while sinking the rest. Why would they want to sink the rest? That's the core of Biden's agenda and the stuff he was running on. Yours is a "black is white, up is down" conspiracy theory.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:04
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Vorik posted:Woke up to the great news of BIF passing. Even if they were to pass this by itself, it would be a massive historic spending bill. Add BBB on top of that and you're looking at the biggest spending package since the New Deal. Fingers crossed! I don't think the BBBA is dead and buried, but I don't think the drama is over either.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:05
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Angry_Ed posted:Also I just learned teacher's strikes are illgeal in this state which Teachers strikes are illegal in 35 states+DC
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Nov 6, 2021 17:12
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How are u posted:Fingers crossed! I don't think the BBBA is dead and buried, but I don't think the drama is over either. The drama is for MSM lanyards and pundits and people who don't know any better, kabuki theater for the dull witted. Pointless. The fight is over. It's dead, bury it. And stock up. How are u posted:This seems a little premature. What do you suggest stocking up on? Supplies. For what comes next, a year from now. Three years from now. Etc. VH4Ever fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Nov 6, 2021 |
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Nov 6, 2021 17:17
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VH4Ever posted:The drama is for MSM lanyards and pundits and people who don't know any better, kabuki theater for the dull witted. Pointless. The fight is over. It's dead, bury it. And stock up. This seems a little premature. What do you suggest stocking up on?
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Nov 6, 2021 17:18
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NBD, just a sitting member of Congress threatening violence over vaccine mandates https://twitter.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1457005871377043457?s=21
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Nov 6, 2021 17:23
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VH4Ever posted:The drama is for MSM lanyards and pundits and people who don't know any better, kabuki theater for the dull witted. Pointless. The fight is over. It's dead, bury it. And stock up. Becoming a Prepper is the new midlife crisis.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:25
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Becoming a Prepper is the new midlife crisis. No see that's the wrong way to look at it. Don't stock a basement full of expiring food and forget your can opener like that jagoff in Texas a year ago. Consolidate poo poo down so you can flee if you need to, get essentials for yourself than can move easily or be abandoned if necessary, be mobile. I mean I'm not even earnestly saying I'm doing this, I plan to go down with the ship. But if you're not choosing that route, I don't know, think about what you'd do if life here became intolerable. Then make a plan. After 2022 and 2024 any ability to fight back electorally will be fully off the table.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:30
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To live is an awfully big adventure, and we live in such interesting times.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:32
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I've got a gun and a single bullet, so I'm already prepped.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:32
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VH4Ever posted:No see that's the wrong way to look at it. Don't stock a basement full of expiring food and forget your can opener like that jagoff in Texas a year ago. Consolidate poo poo down so you can flee if you need to, get essentials for yourself than can move easily or be abandoned if necessary, be mobile. I mean I'm not even earnestly saying I'm doing this, I plan to go down with the ship. But if you're not choosing that route, I don't know, think about what you'd do if life here became intolerable. Then make a plan. After 2022 and 2024 any ability to fight back electorally will be fully off the table. Well, you seem to have conviction at least. Better than a lot of people who continue to screech about how it's all over while they continue to post 14 hours a day on SA  .
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Nov 6, 2021 17:38
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I must have missed this yesterday. https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1457019840393273348 Someone stole a diary belonging to Biden's daughter? And of course it's the weirdo O'Keefe. I hope this guy actually has a consequence at some point.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:41
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Deteriorata posted:Why would they want to sink the rest? That's the core of Biden's agenda and the stuff he was running on. Why would this Nigerian Prince not share his Swiss bank account with me after I sent him my life savings as a good faith gesture? Your is an up is down black is white conspiracy theory. Anyway, re: the student loan discussion from the other day, looks like the DoE is fighting to get the administration to extend the moratorium which is a good thing, but if politco's source is reliable lmao at the administration's argument for not doing that. https://twitter.com/StrikeDebt/status/1455873658698805252 https://twitter.com/StrikeDebt/status/1455875199535026185
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Nov 6, 2021 17:46
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I must have missed this yesterday. Sadly he's the Ur-example for "conservatives don't face consequences" despite his several federal crimes.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:46
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Yeah nothing will happen to O’Keefe He got caught red-handed trying to wiretap a US Senator’s office and he got a slap on the wrist
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Nov 6, 2021 17:51
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Deteriorata posted:I think the issue was that it had all gotten so personal and bitter that there was real danger of both bills going up in flames. Manchin was not budging from his demand that the bipartisan bill be passed before he would agree to anything for the reconciliation bill and was willing to let the infrastucture bill die if necessary. How much more goodwill does Manchin loving need? They've been fluffing his balls nonstop since the loving instant the Senate turned blue, and he's done nothing but poo poo on everything and move the goalposts at every turn because he has "concerns." Forcing the infrastructure bill to be first after promising the opposite was always the game plan, and gumming up the works at every possible opportunity was always what he intended to do specifically so people would reach the point where they're willing to rationalize that "passing anything is better than nothing, dear God just let this end." That's been the gaslight narrative for months, that everyone needs to make concessions to Manchin and the moderates, that they're the poor victims in all of this and the big mean progressives need to quit expecting to have the promises made to them upheld because it's slowing everything down.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:52
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He's rich, rich people do not face consequences. It's not like rich liberals go to jail either. But anyways, apparently Ashley Biden is a huge creep like her brother and her father, so her diary is probably :puke: (Handsiness is genetic apparently)
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Nov 6, 2021 17:52
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Willa Rogers posted:I see this sentiment (the bolded part) channeled a lot more by liberals purporting to speak on behalf of the right than I see it originating among the right. This seems to be a non-sequitur response to my post that you used to rant against liberals. You'll notice I never once ascribed any of the characteristics I mentioned to a specific group of people. I was just describing ways that people can be irrationally against progressive goals even though that progress would be objectively beneficial to them. I think that irrationality is pervasive and one of the main reasons why people vote against their own interests. So while some people might honestly respond to a poll saying "I want free healthcare," when it comes time to actually vote for politicians that support it, they can be swayed by irrationality. There's this fantasy that everyone in this country actually wants to vote for leftist policy, and if the Dems were only better then we'd live in a utopian society. But if that were true we'd see leftist candidates winning on much larger scale across the country. How many leftist representatives are there in the House - maybe 5 or 10? Some on here would probably argue there are none. It's pretty obvious that the causal relationship is reversed - the Dems are bad because most of the voting population is bad, not the other way around. There's no silent majority of leftist voters just waiting for Dems to put forward good candidates. I think holding on to that hope is misguided and doesn't tackle the real problem which is convincing voters that leftist policy is actually good.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:55
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah nothing will happen to O’Keefe Merrick Garland is having extreme difficulty finding the spine to lock up the people who killed Capitol hill police officers on 1/6, there's no way Jimmy O'Keefe is facing anything more than a strongly worded letter telling him never to burgle the First Family ever again. Or at least try not to, maybe. Please.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:56
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Peter Daou Zen posted:He's rich, rich people do not face consequences. It's not like rich liberals go to jail either. I wouldn't take anything from a fascist bomb thrower like O'Keefe at face value.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:56
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Angry_Ed posted:Sadly he's the Ur-example for "conservatives don't face consequences" despite his several federal crimes. Yeah, O'Keefe really was the biggest toe in the water since the Nixon Pardon that the rules were not the same. Nakedly editing content to the point of fraud? Freedom of expression! Tried to do a sexy abduction of a journo? Ehh, he's just a rascal like that! Caught wiretapping a sitting congressperson? It's just PRANKS, man! Don't be a grouch! The system is your oyster if you are a conservative loon with ANY friends. you can invade federal land with guns (Malheur refuge) and point them at those cops you love so much, and you'll skate. It'll be off the news cycle within 3 weeks. Even dogwhistles have become too subtle, the junkies need an airhorn now. And the ostensible Reasonable Party's main concern is still demobilizing their own base and praising people who would see them arrested/dead.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:58
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Deteriorata posted:Why would they want to sink the rest? That's the core of Biden's agenda and the stuff he was running on. Because a huge swath (majority?) of the Democrat Party are hardcore capitalists who don’t believe in social spending in virtually any form? This is hardly a conspiracy.
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Nov 6, 2021 18:06
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Sephyr posted:Yeah, O'Keefe really was the biggest toe in the water since the Nixon Pardon that the rules were not the same. He also had his bodyguard kidnap one of his employees, drag her off to a barn in the middle of nowhere and hold her there for hours against her will as O'Keefe tried (and subsequently failed) to rape her. And he got away with that too. He is probably some sort of prolific rapist because that's at least TWO known attempted rapes by him between that and the Dildo Boat.
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Nov 6, 2021 18:07
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VH4Ever posted:What's this? Fertilizer shortage is a supply chain thing. It's been a huge pain in the rear end to get chemicals at my work lately. No one has basics like calcium chloride in stock. We over fertilize our fields though so maybe a bit of a break won't be terrible. It will probably decrease efficiency of farmers a bit though which can obviously drive food prices. Fingers crossed it's short term.
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Nov 6, 2021 18:07
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