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Freakazoid_ posted:I'm looking at this BBB thing and I can't seem to find the part where Biden stuffs thousands of dollars in my bank account like Trump did. Do you have children? Or are you below 130% of the poverty line? Or do you have disabled or infirm parents on Medicaid? Or are you diabetic on lovely insurance? ...or do you have >$200,000 household income in a high income tax or property tax state? Then BBB will have an obvious effect. Otherwise, sorry, gotta just be happy for those other groups.
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Nov 7, 2021 17:46
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BBB ain't doing any of that because it's dead dead dead, it'll be getting the healthcare "okay Bernie just dropped let's never speak of this again" treatment on the 16th when the Senate kills it
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Nov 7, 2021 17:48
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Epic High Five posted:BBB ain't doing any of that because it's dead dead dead, it'll be getting the healthcare "okay Bernie just dropped let's never speak of this again" treatment on the 16th when the Senate kills it We should bring back toxxing I think it will pass, but will be cut even more in the interim. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 17:52
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:We should bring back toxxing I'm happy for some miracle to happen but as a miserable Marxist who cares too much about this stuff despite my full knowledge that I shouldn't, I cannot think of a single reason why Manchin or Sinema would even bother to show up to kill it. They got everything they wanted in their bespoke bill they got on the promise BBB would be voted on alongside it and didn't even have to concede that. What's left...SALT? They'll just demand it in whatever the next bill that is lined up, it's retroactive now after all, and who's gonna stop them?
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Nov 7, 2021 17:57
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Epic High Five posted:I'm happy for some miracle to happen but as a miserable Marxist who cares too much about this stuff despite my full knowledge that I shouldn't, I cannot think of a single reason why Manchin or Sinema would even bother to show up to kill it. They got everything they wanted in their bespoke bill they got on the promise BBB would be voted on alongside it and didn't even have to concede that. What's left...SALT? They'll just demand it in whatever the next bill that is lined up, it's retroactive now after all, and who's gonna stop them? I don't disagree, but I think there's still enough political benefit to many of the party members that something called BBB will pass to appease them.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:08
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If we're lucky they'll pass something like a $550 billion of the BBB that's has little incremental benefit but is mostly ineffective and then declare victory and give it as a token to the Progressives to keep them quiet. Then dangle other aspects of it for the next election and do their best to not deliver. There's nothing good that can come of the current state of Govt. and with the courts the way they are, it doesn't look like much good progress is going to come for a couple decades.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:09
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Yeah I don't get why we think BBB will pass, because if they wanted it to pass they could have just done that before passing the bipartisan bill like they promised they would in the first place. Whipping the hell out of the CPC and throwing the bill on the floor and daring them to kill it is all totally unnecessary because they'd get all the CPC's votes if they just kept their word and passed BBB first instead. We see the strongarm parliamentary tactics they're capable of when they want to, they could have done it to Manchin and Sinema instead: attached the BBB back to the BIF, thrown it on the Senate floor and told Manchin if he votes it down they'd run campaign ads attacking him for voting against infrastructure in West Virginia. Imo they've already given up on getting Manchin and/or Sinema to vote for the BBB and concluded they just needed a way to break the logjam and get something through. This deal was just a way to get the CPC to back down while saving face. They voted for the BIF in exchange for an unenforceable pinky promise, when that promise is broken they can say it's not their fault Biden tricked us!! For the people who think it will pass though: PM me for a great business deal. I need someone to wire about $50,000 in payments to various bank account numbers, after you do this I'll send you a $100,000 cashier's check and you can keep the difference as a little treat for yourself  E: Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I don't disagree, but I think there's still enough political benefit to many of the party members that something called BBB will pass to appease them.  they could pass a bill with that name" retort. No poo poo but if it just renames a post office and cuts taxes on the rich then it doesn't do any of those great things that were listed then what's your point
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 18:14
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Is there any statues in the BIF to research and develop the Havana Gun
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Nov 7, 2021 18:15
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Is there any statues in the BIF to research and develop the Havana Gun Someone needs to put one of those annoyatron things in Manchin's office and tell him it's Havana syndrome, and that we need to pass the BBB to fund a Havana syndrome research center is West Virginia. quote:For the people who think it will pass though: PM me for a great business deal. I need someone to wire about $50,000 in payments to various bank account numbers, after you do this I'll send you a $100,000 cashier's check and you can keep the difference as a little treat for yourself I don't think it's a bait and switch to say that something will pass that is even less that what is currently considered in BBB. It's just par for the course as far as expectations. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 18:18
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Is there any statues in the BIF to research and develop the Havana Gun Sorry that's exclusive to the Communism tech tree
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Nov 7, 2021 18:20
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Freakazoid_ posted:I'm looking at this BBB thing and I can't seem to find the part where Biden stuffs thousands of dollars in my bank account like Trump did. Hey if that's the single solitary thing you care about then it sounds like you've got it figured out. More power to you.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:20
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It's weird how obsessed people are with giving Trump credit for the payouts for a bill he didn't write and threatened to veto, that the Democrats voted for and wrote parts of and even pushed for more money in. It's like you are going out of your way to reduce things so you can get some pointless jab in.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:29
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socialsecurity posted:It's weird how obsessed people are with giving Trump credit for the payouts for a bill he didn't write and threatened to veto, that the Democrats voted for and wrote parts of and even pushed for more money in. It's like you are going out of your way to reduce things so you can get some pointless jab in. I think it's weird too, but also slightly refreshing for some folks to really put it out there that the only thing they truly care about is cash money in their hand, nothing else matters. I can't wrap my head around that type of thinking, the world and politics and governance are so fabulously more complex than that, but for some folks it really seems to be nothing more than "money please, gimme money". Wild, but people continue to bring it up, so it must resonate strongly for them. E: like, I want more government cash too! I could drat well use it! But it certainly isn't like literally the only thing that matters to me lol.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:35
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socialsecurity posted:It's weird how obsessed people are with giving Trump credit for the payouts for a bill he didn't write and threatened to veto, that the Democrats voted for and wrote parts of and even pushed for more money in. It's like you are going out of your way to reduce things so you can get some pointless jab in. If the BBB actually passes are you going to give Biden credit for the parts that he didn't write, that Bernie demanded and pushed for more money in, just curious
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Nov 7, 2021 18:38
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socialsecurity posted:It's weird how obsessed people are with giving Trump credit for the payouts for a bill he didn't write and threatened to veto, that the Democrats voted for and wrote parts of and even pushed for more money in. It's like you are going out of your way to reduce things so you can get some pointless jab in. What people feel the truth is is a lot more important to them than what the actual truth is. It's why people ever vote for Republicans in the first place. Pointing out the ways people interpret what's going on at a high level is useful
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Nov 7, 2021 18:38
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It's going to be another misplay to have this weird downtrodden attitude for two weeks if the 1.8T BBB passes, isn't it? Like people are going to look at you side eyed and say, oh yea remember when you were acting like a weirdo about it not passing for two weeks and then disappeared from the thread for a while? I like to avoid self owns usually.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:42
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Probably the people obsessed with cash in hand are so because of the society that requires it to survive that they were born into. Really makes you think.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:43
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Shammypants posted:It's going to be another misplay to have this weird downtrodden attitude for two weeks if the 1.8T BBB passes, isn't it? Like people are going to look at you side eyed and say, oh yea remember when you were acting like a weirdo about it not passing for two weeks and then disappeared from the thread for a while? I like to avoid self owns usually. That's a great point. You gotta filter your feelings about politics through the "will strangers on the internet think I'm cool?" lens or you're not really thinking. e: "misplay" "self own" lmao
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Nov 7, 2021 18:45
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VitalSigns posted:If the BBB actually passes are you going to give Biden credit for the parts that he didn't write, that Bernie demanded and pushed for more money in, just curious Is anyone super excited about Biden alone? Because what I see is hope for the Democratic Party generally, Bernie included. The ones that got this bill passed and wrote BBB and added all the good things to the bills Trump signed. You generally argue about the Dems generally. This seems a telling change of focus.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:47
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Epic High Five posted:I prefer to think of it as IKs being plucky beat reporters and mods being J Jonah Jameson Insufficient pictures of spider-man to join the mod squad.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:48
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So if you break down $1.75tn over a decade that's like $500 per US citizen per year. Just an insanely trivial amount, almost insulting. And that's if you assume you get one of these every decade, which...lol, Even taking that generous fiction at face value, it's still a small fraction of what EU countries spend per capita. It's nothing. Even if you believe that the electorate responds to policy, this is nowhere near enough to begin to move the needle
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Nov 7, 2021 18:48
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socialsecurity posted:It's weird how obsessed people are with giving Trump credit for the payouts for a bill he didn't write and threatened to veto, that the Democrats voted for and wrote parts of and even pushed for more money in. It's like you are going out of your way to reduce things so you can get some pointless jab in. I think Freakazoid_ is speaking to the likely electoral implications of this legislation, if it passes in any form. (correct me if I'm wrong on that, Freakazoid_) The average voter doesn't care that Trump didn't write the previous bill and threatened to veto it, nor do they care that the Dems tried really hard to make the BBB as expansive as possible. They care about whether or not they, themselves, got anything material out of it, and they'll vote accordingly.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:48
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Epic High Five posted:I prefer to think of it as IKs being plucky beat reporters and mods being J Jonah Jameson That would explain why they're always demanding pictures of Spider-Man... 
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Nov 7, 2021 18:49
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VitalSigns posted:If the BBB actually passes are you going to give Biden credit for the parts that he didn't write, that Bernie demanded and pushed for more money in, just curious No I'm not as I don't feel Biden is doing enough to push this along and I feel in general we put too much blame and credit on the president for things congress does.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:50
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Valentin posted:That's a great point. You gotta filter your feelings about politics through the "will strangers on the internet think I'm cool?" lens or you're not really thinking. Everyone in this thread and CSPAM for that matter has a reputation based on how right they've been, the consistency of their views and how correct their predictions have come to be. What would you call (c)spamming doom posts about the BBB being dead for two weeks only for it to pass in a weakly manufactured Democratic plot to seem competent for once by passing a pared down version of a better bill? There's actually a broad incentive for Manchin and Sinema to vote yes now. It makes progressives who tried to stall the bills to get good things into them look like obstructionists who nearly killed it all. It makes most Americans see either an unthinkably enormous spending bill passing or a good enough bill passing with a much smaller segment of the population seeing it as 'too small and bad.' Very few people will likely see both bills in a month as insufficient, despite them being so. Also they (moderates) actually do like the stuff in there now and probably think enough time will pass to make them politically safe from scrutiny by 2022/2024. Shammypants fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 18:54
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socialsecurity posted:It's weird how obsessed people are with giving Trump credit for the payouts for a bill he didn't write and threatened to veto, that the Democrats voted for and wrote parts of and even pushed for more money in. It's like you are going out of your way to reduce things so you can get some pointless jab in. Friendly reminder to please argue with the posters and not the thread.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:57
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the_steve posted:Friendly reminder to please argue with the posters and not the thread. Freakazoid_ posted:I'm looking at this BBB thing and I can't seem to find the part where Biden stuffs thousands of dollars in my bank account like Trump did. I posted literally after someone responded to this person, does each of us need to quote the same person repeatedly?
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Nov 7, 2021 19:00
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How are u posted:I can't wrap my head around that type of thinking, the world and politics and governance are so fabulously more complex than that, but for some folks it really seems to be nothing more than "money please, gimme money". If you materially better the lives of your voters, your voters are going to vote for you again. It seems that people have trouble understanding this?
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Nov 7, 2021 19:01
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Dante80 posted:If you materially better the lives of your voters, your voters are going to vote for you again. It seems that people have trouble understanding this?
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Nov 7, 2021 19:04
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the_steve posted:Friendly reminder to please argue with the posters and not the thread. [efb because I had to make a quip, as usual] Sarcastr0 posted:This assumes SA posters are in any way like the larger body of voters generally. AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 19:05
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socialsecurity posted:I posted literally after someone responded to this person, does each of us need to quote the same person repeatedly? Personally? Speaking only for myself? I would prefer it. Makes it easier to follow a conversation and see that you're actually responding to someone specifically and not doing a vague thread call-out in order to score a jab. Especially on days where the thread is moving hella-fast and there may be thirty posts made before you're done.
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Nov 7, 2021 19:07
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Dante80 posted:If you materially better the lives of your voters, your voters are going to vote for you again. It seems that people have trouble understanding this? It's obviously not as simple as this. If it were, Republicans would lose every single election they run in and Bernie would be in the White House. Edit: An older lady I know lives strictly off of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security and guess who she votes for?
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Nov 7, 2021 19:09
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Sarcastr0 posted:This assumes SA posters are in any way like the larger body of voters generally. Given that the pattern being discussed is "people tend to vote for politicians/parties that they perceive as benefiting them materially," it's a fair assumption. That is indeed how voters, here and elsewhere, usually behave. small butter posted:It's obviously not as simple as this. If it were, Republicans would lose every single election they run in and Bernie would be in the White House. I mean, you're correct insofar as it's a game of perception more than anything. Voters vote for leaders who they believe are helping them in a real way. Right now, though, in a time of severe economic, social, and environmental crisis, the Dems have an opportunity to benefit voters' lives in a truly material, tangible way. It's really the only thing they could do, if they wanted to seriously increase their chances of holding onto power over the next 2-4 years. They can't hope to win by playing the Republicans' culture war game; Virginia proved that conclusively. So it's a shame that they've bungled and half-assed it as much as they have over the past several months. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 19:10
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Do you have children? Or are you below 130% of the poverty line? Or do you have disabled or infirm parents on Medicaid? Or are you diabetic on lovely insurance? is the thing for insulin and other drugs only applicable to seniors on medicare?
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Nov 7, 2021 19:11
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People vote against their material interests all the time. Exhibit 1: poor republican voters.
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Nov 7, 2021 19:15
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Seph posted:People vote against their material interests all the time. Exhibit 1: poor republican voters. Yea, we're in a weird situation where republicans can run on stopping culture war issues that aren't even occurring and win elections, and democrats need to broadly repair the country during an unprecedented global event in order to campaign and win. This idea of winning elections by materially improving people's lives sounds good on paper but it surely wasn't the driving issue in Virginia- it was revenge, craziness at schools, craziness over covid vaccinations and mask mandates etc.
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Nov 7, 2021 19:19
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Majorian posted:Given that the pattern being discussed is "people tend to vote for politicians/parties that they perceive as benefiting them materially," it's a fair assumption. That is indeed how voters, here and elsewhere, usually behave. I really don't think that tracks, at least since 2008. Voters in exit polls indicate they're motivated by negative partisanship - the idea that the other candidate is mounting an existential threat to American values. And campaign rhetoric on both sides tracks that as well. SA posters may be angry about money not in their pocket, but they're also angry about a lot of values stuff as well. Indeed, I wonder how many would vote based on pure materialism even as they talk about all the other moral horrorshows America has going on. Basically, pass good policies because they are good. Trying to keep your eye on a sop to the voters will just end in FOX fearmongers calling you socialist and negating any gain you might have hoped for. Sarcastr0 fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 19:20
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Sarcastr0 posted:I really don't think that tracks, at least since 2008. Voters in exit polls indicate they're motivated by negative partisanship - the idea that the other candidate is mounting an existential threat to American values. I don't think the evidence supports this; in the 2020 election, for example, voters listed the economy and health care as their top two issues. Indeed, the economy has been the number one issue for voters since 2004. (it tied with "jobs" that year) Seph posted:People vote against their material interests all the time. Exhibit 1: poor republican voters. Do you think they think they're voting against their own material interests? Or do they perceive the politicians and policies they support as likely to benefit them materially? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, but I'd be interested to hear why you think otherwise, if you do.
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Nov 7, 2021 19:26
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Harold Fjord posted:Probably the people obsessed with cash in hand are so because of the society that requires it to survive that they were born into. Really makes you think. heck last year proved that the most effective way to have an impact on lowering the poverty rate is to just give people money with no strings attached, instead of means-testing the heck out of them
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Nov 7, 2021 19:31
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Shammypants posted:Everyone in this thread and CSPAM for that matter has a reputation based on how right they've been, the consistency of their views and how correct their predictions have come to be. What would you call (c)spamming doom posts about the BBB being dead for two weeks only for it to pass in a weakly manufactured Democratic plot to seem competent for once by passing a pared down version of a better bill? I mean I probably wouldn't call it anything but "posting" seems like a fine thing to call it? The premise that people are here posting to impress goons with their political acumen and not just to satisfy whatever feelings they're feeling at the time seems like a stretch to me, but rock on. Maybe I'm the only fool not maintaining goonpredictions.xlsx Shammypants posted:There's actually a broad incentive for Manchin and Sinema to vote yes now. It makes progressives who tried to stall the bills to get good things into them look like obstructionists who nearly killed it all. It makes most Americans see either an unthinkably enormous spending bill passing or a good enough bill passing with a much smaller segment of the population seeing it as 'too small and bad.' Very few people will likely see both bills in a month as insufficient, despite them being so. Also they (moderates) actually do like the stuff in there now and probably think enough time will pass to make them politically safe from scrutiny by 2022/2024. I guess I don't see how "Manchin and Sinema are playing 12th dimension chess that relies on voters to pay enough attention to know this is a pared down bill that almost died, and also too little attention to not understand that the paring down relied almost entirely on progressives sacrificing things they wanted, and also no one will actually pay enough attention to still care about it in a year" is inherently or obviously a less embarrassing take than "Manchin and Sinema, as they have repeatedly made clear through their statements and negotiating, don't particularly care about any remaining part of the BBB and could easily spike it." There were broad incentives for them to vote yes at any point in the process, particularly Sinema who has actively burned all her bridges with her statewide party and the activist networks that initially supported her into office due to her obstinacy. The idea that the moment is only just now ripe for them to do so seems to rest on the premise that 1) they have stances on the legislation they have not professed (i.e. they like its key provisions) and 2) the myriad other things animating them (esp. and clearly, I'd argue, their keen attention to what mainstream media, particularly on the center-right, thinks of them) won't win out. And I fully don't understand how any of this justifies snide posting about how other people are posting against their own self-interest lmao
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Nov 7, 2021 19:31
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