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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia. quote:We ask: Which party has better policy proposals? quote:We ask: Which party has cultural values closer to yours? 
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Nov 8, 2021 20:56
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:What’s the word for supporting and rewarding the police that actively opened doors and removed gates to allow the attack to happen in the first place? Pretty sure the word is "nuance". Some individual officers and even some leaders in the organization acted to hinder the Capitol Police's ability to keep the crowd under control. This in turn led to other officers having a much harder time in their genuine and dedicated attempts to prevent the rioters from attacking members of Congress, with dozens injured by the mob and several outright hospitalized. So the question isn't just how to deal with the few coup-supporting officers within the Capitol Police, but also how to maintain the morale of the majority of loyal officers. Giving them a bunch of funding for mental health treatment and encouraging them to assist with internal investigations - while also creating a separate "quick-response" force subject to a totally separate chain of command, as insurance against future issues with the Capitol Police - sounds like about the right thing to do. As crappy as the status quo is, it's nowhere near the worst-case scenario. If the Capitol Police as an organization had enthusiastically sided with the coup, they could have done a lot worse than just open the barricades. If anything, the primary reason the 1/6 riot failed to become a coup is because no one in the right-wing leadership was willing to take charge and use the mob to their advantage. Letting a bunch of random chuds wander around the Capitol in hopes that one of them would run into a large enough chunk of Congress, pull a gun, and do something revolutionary? That was never going to work, not even with insiders opening doors and feeding info to the mob. Someone needed to have an actual plan and either recruit the mob to help carry it out, or use the mob as cover to carry it out. In the end, even though they'd worked to create an environment in which it would be possible, no one had the guts to take that final step and directly attempt an actual coup.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
Yeah, these are pretty key to me. The focus on policy as key to electoral prospects has always seemed rather suspect to me.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:57
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Sir John Falstaff posted:Yeah, these are pretty key to me. The focus on policy as key to electoral prospects has always seemed rather suspect to me. running on policy seems to be a great way to lose. You have to fight the culture ware and it suuuuuucks.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I wonder if this will have any impact on a certain segment of anti-vax folks. I mean ya I'm sure it does work, but....why would you want to? Maybe immunocompromised people who can't form their own antibodies?
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Nov 8, 2021 21:02
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HonorableTB posted:
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Nov 8, 2021 21:04
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cr0y posted:I mean ya I'm sure it does work, but....why would you want to? Maybe immunocompromised people who can't form their own antibodies? That is the group it is primarily designed for + emergency treatment of already infected people. Seems very unlikely to convince most anti-vax people, but if there is something that has "vaccine-like results" that is technically not a vaccine, then maybe some of the people who are cooking orange skins, taking anti-malaria pills, or taking deworming pills could be nudged to a "not vaccine" treatment that would help with herd immunity.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:06
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A Huey Long popping up would be great. Literally everybody would go insane. They'd be firmly cemented by anybody with a platform as history's greatest megaHitler supermonster within hours. Someone who really is all the most unhinged things everybody on all sides thought Bernie was. Chris Matthews sobbing inconsolably on live TV.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:08
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Edit- wait that's not the right one
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Nov 8, 2021 21:09
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I wonder what those "cultural values" are
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Nov 8, 2021 21:16
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I can't tell if only the worst people in the world are available for focus groups or if people are just that horribly annoying.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:17
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"the president of the teacher's union hates kids" certainly is a statement I mean, you can take one of the most liberal cities in the nation, San Francisco, and look at what the school board was doing in 2020 - it was basically a never-ending series of self-owns and stupidity that showed a complete disconnect with what SF parents and families were actually going through. If I was a parent with a 7-yo during all of that I might be spite voting, too. Tl;dr 2020 was: -rename all the schools but no one spent any time on community input or background work -board member says arguably racist Twitter stuff then ends up suing the board when she’s booted, literally every politico in SF does not like her -we’re hybrid! No, we’re all stay-at-home! No, all the teachers refuse to get vaccinated! Wait what the hell is even happening now? It honestly seems like an abject failure on every level, pandemic or no
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Nov 8, 2021 21:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia. It's amazing how nobody really knows wtf crt actually is and all that seems to matter to anyone is economics. It's pretty funny that Biden got saddled with this downturn and will be eating all the blame for something that is almost completely out of his control.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Lots of words and tweets The thing that struck me most is the overwhelming extent to which this group, including the African-American woman in the group, said that America is a good country. I think this shows a key divide between left-wing activists (and more than a few D&D posters) and voters that shouldn’t be forgotten. Voters, by and large, think the US is a good country, albeit one that has some problems. I think they’re annoyed and frustrated with the activists and academic elites who continuously insist that America is bad and evil. “This country is bad and we should feel bad” isn’t ever going to be a winning political message.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia. Well, this is certainly a wake-up call. Voters straight-up saying that they think Dems have better policy, but that they voted GOP anyway because they think the Dems are too anti-racist.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:21
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-Blackadder- posted:Yeah your other big post on messaging was appreciated as well. Especially liked the historical lessons. Honesty, if you wanted to make a "messaging"-focused thread I think it would generate some good discussion. The incredible thing about Huey Long was that he never really understood or gave a poo poo about political theory. The Bible was his guiding light, and the Bible said that you love your neighbors and lift up those in need, and by God that's what he did. And when people tried to stand in the way of him doing that he didn't play the political game, but instead in his words he "dynamited them out of the way."
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Nov 8, 2021 21:21
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Eric Cantonese posted:I can't tell if only the worst people in the world are available for focus groups or if people are just that horribly annoying. Except for the "teacher's union President hates our kids and would rather keep schools closed forever so they don't have to work" lady, they sound like most of the average not super into politics people I know. - "X politician needs to make gas prices low." - "X politician needs to stop telling me what to do." - Generalized anti-union sentiment when it impacts their lives. - "Everybody says everyone else is the worst and I'm tired of it. Can't we all get along and say nice things about each other?" Are basically the defining traits of most normal not super political people.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:23
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What I got from that is that these people think the governor controls inflation and gas prices? A lot of this backlash (not withstanding the CRT propaganda) is people fed up with the current state of, well, everything, and desperately looking for someone to fix it even though it isn't fixable by one person or one party or even one country. Supply chain problems and staffing shortages, which are the things having the most visible impact on everyday life, are due to a fundamental flaw in the just-in-time global economy and in the way we value labor. There's no easy solution that will let people get on with their lives from the Before Times.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:24
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Sir John Falstaff posted:Yeah, these are pretty key to me. The focus on policy as key to electoral prospects has always seemed rather suspect to me. Yep. Fascinating focus group. I've long felt that the whole "the USA is a demon cracker nation" type rhetoric is hugely self sabotaging. People like to love their home, people like to be patriotic. It's incumbent upon us to work within that type of framework to achieve our goals.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:25
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Cranappleberry posted:It'd be interesting if parents had a new respect for teachers and schooling and this led to teachers getting paid more, more in-classroom help, more money for education across the board, higher standards, a longer school year, well-funded before and after school programs Au contraire. Try “We pay all this money through our taxes already, and those lazy teachers wanted to sit on their asses even longer by avoiding a return to schools” I love SA, but JFC the leftist and over-informed bubble we live in here. People got used to COVID by the beginning of 2021. At some stage, parents feel there is a trade-off between keeping your child safe from lasting damage from COVID on one hand, or homeschooling and social isolation on the other, never mind damage from financial and other burdens. Democrats failed to recognize and address this.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:25
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Why hasn't there been another Huey Long, or any other flavor of leftist for that matter, to get big time national attention? I feel like economic populism would still resonate. I know why most Democrats don't go that direction (they're not actually economic populists!) but if the message is as powerful as I'd like to think it is, surely someone would have taken it up and run with it and gotten somewhere?
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Nov 8, 2021 21:26
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, this is certainly a wake-up call. Voters straight-up saying that they think Dems have better policy, but that they voted GOP anyway because they think the Dems are too anti-racist. I mean, I doubt that that percentage of those Northam-Biden-Youngkin voters are comprised entirely of racists. As other responses of theirs indicated, school stuff played a major role, and also inflation. I also seriously doubt the political utility of labeling every non-Dem voter as racist, especially as the GOP is finding a foothold among voters with its CRT myths. eta: As far as the Dems' foothold with policies, I wonder if it's based on the sort of things Dems campaigned for (and polls were including till just recently) but can't be arsed to pass, such as $15 min. wage, meaningful prescription-drug price controls, and 12-week family leave, among the multitudes of promises. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 21:27
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In all the very stupid arguing past each other, how does “a failed coup shows Republicans aren’t Nazis” square with Hitler’s attempted coup…failing, with him ending up in jail before trying again and succeeding? Legitimately asking, because the past few pages were dumb enough I’m not sure anyone involved knew that fact.Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:28
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How are u posted:Yep. Fascinating focus group. I've long felt that the whole "the USA is a demon cracker nation" type rhetoric is hugely self sabotaging. People like to love their home, people like to be patriotic. It's incumbent upon us to work within that type of framework to achieve our goals. Yeah maybe the Democrats could run some troops who wrap themselves in the flag. Beat the Republicans at their own game, y'know?
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Nov 8, 2021 21:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia. Once again this destroys the illusion that dems just need to run on big policy/spending bills and everything else will fall into place. The issues the average voter have are way different than what dems and the left are offering. I saw so many people just completely disregarding concerns of inflation and education it was surreal. That one dem strategist who used to work for the Obama administration was completely right.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:33
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Hellblazer187 posted:Why hasn't there been another Huey Long, or any other flavor of leftist for that matter, to get big time national attention? I feel like economic populism would still resonate. FBI ain't about to let that whole thing happen again with all the tools and procedures the Cold War gave them, plus the machines are fine tuned to hamstringing and boxing out economic populism in ways they just weren't back then. If it does happen it'll probably be someone running on the Republican ticket, which is to say it'll be a huge shitstorm Plus the whole capitalist realism thing - the left was just way stronger and bigger back then, with people proudly saying they were Actual Communists and world-level stuff that gave them hope and a vision of an alternative. Now it's just vaguely anarchist and electoralist with stuff we did 70 years ago being largely considered to be impossible today, which is a much weaker foundation to build on even before you factor in the US left's tenancy to rip apart anybody who isn't little-L libertarian
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Nov 8, 2021 21:35
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is pepsi ok posted:Yeah maybe the Democrats could run some troops who wrap themselves in the flag. Beat the Republicans at their own game, y'know? You can dismiss it all you want, the results still speak for themselves. People like to feel good and hopeful. We can win as leftists within that very simple framework.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:35
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Even though it is incredibly dishonest, Youngkin actually played the CRT angle in a very smart way. He basically let the Fox News/Facebook groups yell the really extreme stuff and get it into the conversation and his statements were couched as "CRT teaches us that racism is an innate part of humanity, divides us by race, and teaches our kids that some of us are inherently better or worse than others. I want to teach a neutral and fact-based history and follow the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. - judging people on the content of their character and not the color of their skin." Plus, he couched the anti-trans stuff in terms of safety and something he "had to do" because of a specific instance of a boy raping a girl in a public school women's room. Combined with all of the general critiques of masks, quarantines (which takes kids out of school for a week or more), and teacher's union problems, he wrapped the CRT and anti-trans stuff into a general sense of "the PC police and Democrats have let everything get out of control" instead of the more hateful reasons people usually give for anti-trans and anti-CRT issues. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 21:36
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Hellblazer187 posted:Why hasn't there been another Huey Long, or any other flavor of leftist for that matter, to get big time national attention? I feel like economic populism would still resonate. Remember the LBJ (I think that's who it was) quote about how people are fine being economically downtrodden as long as a black person is worse off than them. Also, the general public likes economic populism until you mention that they might have to give something to those who are poorer than them. Raising taxes will never be popular, spending money on people who Aren't Like Me will never be popular, Reagonomics has fully seeped into the consciousness of Republicans and Democrats alike and it'll take more than a single demagogue to shake it. is pepsi ok posted:Yeah maybe the Democrats could run some troops who wrap themselves in the flag. Beat the Republicans at their own game, y'know? I think that was the idea with Pete Buttigieg, though he had the nerve to suggest ending the 2001 AMF so he probably isn't sufficiently pro-troop enough for that crowd.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:37
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, this is certainly a wake-up call. Voters straight-up saying that they think Dems have better policy, but that they voted GOP anyway because they think the Dems are too anti-racist. Wanna get depressed, go match referendums and who that state elected since the internet started making it easy to see politics outside your own state, it’s an endless clusterfuck of it.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:39
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is pepsi ok posted:Yeah maybe the Democrats could run some troops who wrap themselves in the flag. Beat the Republicans at their own game, y'know? I feel like there was a blatant attempt to pivot to that in the 2016 election and it went over like a giant, wet fart
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Nov 8, 2021 21:48
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There have been several military veterans who ran as Democrats since 2016. There was one in Missouri who i can't remember who lost. And of course...there was Amy McGrath. Basically it's not a slam-dunk at all. Tammy Duckworth won but she was an established name.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:51
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idiotsavant posted:I feel like there was a blatant attempt to pivot to that in the 2016 election and it went over like a giant, wet fart Angry_Ed posted:There have been several military veterans who ran as Democrats since 2016. There was one in Missouri who i can't remember who lost. And of course...there was Amy McGrath.  That is the reference he was making.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:53
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idiotsavant posted:I feel like there was a blatant attempt to pivot to that in the 2016 election and it went over like a giant, wet fart Yeah it has been tried repeatedly in a lot of venues and has largely failed. Duckworth's race is so weird and she was running against a moderate Republican with foot-in-mouth disease. Her service was.largely incidental to her win.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:53
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Cranappleberry posted:It'd be interesting if parents had a new respect for teachers and schooling and this led to teachers getting paid more, more in-classroom help, more money for education across the board, higher standards, a longer school year, well-funded before and after school programs Not likely. It’s gonna be more “I need you to be daycare for my terrible kids” and “my my kids are terrible because of their teachers and not because I don’t know how to parent.”
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Nov 8, 2021 21:58
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idiotsavant posted:I feel like there was a blatant attempt to pivot to that in the 2016 election and it went over like a giant, wet fart Yeah I mean the shamelessness with which John Kerry was mocked in 2004 should put to rest the idea that "all we need to do is run a troop".
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Nov 8, 2021 21:58
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mango sentinel posted:
Indeed, one need only look at how poor Max Cleland's career turned out to see that "wounded vet candidate" is by no means a slam-dunk. (and Cleland was the drat incumbent!)
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Nov 8, 2021 22:03
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Hellblazer187 posted:Why hasn't there been another Huey Long, or any other flavor of leftist for that matter, to get big time national attention? I feel like economic populism would still resonate. I think at this point the most rational conclusion is that the left-wing populist message is not, indeed, as powerful as its adherents suppose.
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Nov 8, 2021 22:04
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What if instead of chasing the right wing understanding of patriotism they tried to redefine the term as caring for your fellow Americans and made that the central messaging of a new bill of rights that guaranteed healthcare, jobs, and a living wage to all citizens?
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Nov 8, 2021 22:06
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is pepsi ok posted:Yeah maybe the Democrats could run some troops who wrap themselves in the flag. Beat the Republicans at their own game, y'know? Barring local talent, we should unironically be recruiting from Hollywood. It's a huge Dem power base and is packed with prospective candidates with long standing built-in positive publicity and media training, two things that have been shown to be incredibly impactful. Hell, two of the biggest monsters out of the Republican party were lovely actors who's media training allowed them to effortlessly walk all over us. 90% of this job is standing front of the camera. Policy as an electoral strategy is dead. Use it to fire up the activists otherwise relegate it to the backrooms where the real work is done. That focus group is an absolute slaughter for the Dems. Human beings are irrational and prone to bias, either we structure our messaging and problem solving to work within those given constraints or that's the game. The Republicans, by being the party of the lowest common denominator, have effectively figured this out enabling them to stay relevant despite being complete policy failsons. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 22:06
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