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skylined! posted:Can't being crushed cause heart failure/attack? Not usually in people with young/healthy hearts. If it was just syncopes and people then beimg trampled, it would be one thing. But a full coronary event is weird, and several even more. Mind, there's a lot we don't know. Could be drugs, could be poor organization and first aid making people with lesser conditions die and the showrunners blaming it on heart attacks. Who even knows in this post-truth world.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:32
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Majorian posted:FDR did die in ‘45, yes, but the point is, the New Deal (or promise thereof in 1933, I suppose) handed the Dems a durable majority that only faltered in two two-year sessions over the next 62 years. Yes, there were divisions in the Democratic Party throughout that period; doesn’t change the fact that voters rewarded the party for passing, and then defending, extremely popular legislation. But the New Deal Coalition was swept away in 1936 and didn't return until 1964. It was the Conservative Coalition that was in power during that period. The public didn't reward Democrats and Republicans who supported and praised the new deal, they rewarded Democrats and Republicans who opposed the new deal. Look up the history of Rep Howard Smith and think about why Republicans would want to hang his portrait when they took power in 1995.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:33
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It's notable that this ended just around the time of the party realignment being solidified. I just don't see a scenario where Democrats attain that sort of national dominance again, especially with fully legal gerrymandering. That may be true. All I’m saying is, the evidence history provides us doesn’t seem to back up the claim that voters don’t reward politicians and parties that enact good policy. karthun posted:But the New Deal Coalition was swept away in 1936 and didn't return until 1964. It was the Conservative Coalition that was in power during that period. The public didn't reward Democrats and Republicans who supported and praised the new deal, they rewarded Democrats and Republicans who opposed the new deal. Look up the history of Rep Howard Smith and think about why Republicans would want to hang his portrait when they took power in 1995. Majorian fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 01:38
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We've also moved forward in history, and now we live in a world that is intensely more polarized, 21st century social media exists, right-wing disinfo and media siloing is the rule, etc etc.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:44
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Majorian posted:Do you think most voters at the time were aware of any of this? I certainly don’t. These changes to the elected Dem coalition were brought about by the party machine, not popular opposition to the New Deal. No, voters turned out to vote for the party that had brought them social security and labor rights. So basically it's less about the policy and more about the propaganda.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:47
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I think you're correct but I also think we are at the most deadlocked period in American history. The lessons of history don't really apply here. For the Dems to break that deadlock, they are going to have to enact policy that seriously changes the status quo. But every time anything even remotely progressive happens, it fuels a wild authoritarian backlash. A new New Deal would require tremendous political will and politicians willing to risk their own futures. We just don't have that and the longer it goes on like this, the more sensible it becomes for blue states to contemplate the obligations vs benefits of being in the US.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:51
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Josh Hawley just made his first step into the 2024 campaign with an interesting message. https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1457689871519260673 https://twitter.com/axios/status/1457488072220807169 quote:"As conservatives, we've got to call men back to responsibility," Hawley said. "We've got to say that spending your time not working ... spending your time on video games, spending your time watching porn online ... is not good for you, your family or this country." quote:Challenged on whether his assertions are based on data or mere hunches, the senator said millions of men had been idled in part "because jobs have dried up in many cities across America and rural areas, too." quote:Asked about the indelible image of him raising a fist in solidarity with protesters outside the Capitol on Jan. 6 before the riot began, Hawley said he doesn't regret the gesture. But, he disavowed the rioters and said it would not be something his addresses in any future campaigns. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 01:51
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Main Paineframe posted:Sure, the data shows that voters believe X, but I don't agree with the voters so I'm just going to handwave it away with snide comments without ever engaging with the underlying evidence! If you disagree maybe you should make an argument to that effect. It ought to be easy since the data's so bulletproof
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Nov 9, 2021 01:53
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Majorian posted:That may be true. All I’m saying is, the evidence history provides us doesn’t seem to back up the claim that voters don’t reward politicians and parties that enact good policy. You have any proof that both this was the main issue driving out voters and that they voted in anti new deal people because they didn't know? This discussion sparker from an actual deep dive into voter intentions and you are countering it with wide generalizations.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:53
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Jaxyon posted:So basically it's less about the policy and more about the propaganda. Propaganda-only can work short-term, especially if you haven’t blown off a bunch of your promises already. But the post-New Deal Dems succeeded because enough voters felt that their lives had been improved materially by Dem policies that they were the safe choice. As a white suburbanite Dem famously said in the 50’s, “I own a nice home, have a new car and am much better off than my parents were. I've been a Democrat all my life. Why should I change?" Propaganda needs a certain level of perceived credibility to work.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:53
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Josh Hawley is not going to win running on an anti-porn platform, good lord. There is indeed a huge cultural and societal issue with men, but weird toxic fucks like Hawley are exactly what's driving it. e: and people love porn.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:54
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Main Paineframe posted:Sure, the data shows that voters believe X, but I don't agree with the voters so I'm just going to handwave it away with snide comments without ever engaging with the underlying evidence! The data didn't say people don't care about material policy, it said people thought the Democrats had better policy but were swayed more by cultural issues. This is the consequence of setting the bar at being better than the Republicans instead of setting it at meeting people's needs.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Josh Hawley just made his first step into the 2024 campaign with an interesting message. Bold strategy on Hawley's part to immediately piss off a huge chunk of his potential voting base: angry porn-addicted gamers.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:55
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Hawley on-point for No Nut November, when his message will hit the hardest. Brilliant politics.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:57
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As someone who's spent most of my life in South Dakota I'm gonna keep vaguely warning people that Kristi Noem is running for VP nom in 2024 and is imo highly likely to get it, regardless of who is at the top of the ticket. She's managed to mostly thread the needle of being a bootlicking Trump loyalist while not pissing off the business GOP establishment. She can boast about not suffering much economic impact from COVID-19 pandemic (because we always have very low unemployment and never enacted any statewide restrictions) and respecting freedoms etc, plus she's a conventionally attractive woman. I don't think Hawley is going anywhere.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:06
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Majorian posted:Do you think most voters at the time were aware of any of this? I certainly don’t. These changes to the elected Dem coalition were brought about by the party machine, not popular opposition to the New Deal. No, voters turned out to vote for the party that had brought them social security and labor rights. 100% absolutely, That's how these conservatives kept on getting elected. They were viewed as a moderating force on the excessive of the bureaucrats of the executives. While these conservatives were viewed as moderating forces, what they really did was stop major social legislation between the 2nd New Deal and the Great Society.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:06
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nine-gear crow posted:Bold strategy on Hawley's part to immediately piss off a huge chunk of his potential voting base: angry porn-addicted gamers. He just needs to add anime and vtubers to the list.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Josh Hawley just made his first step into the 2024 campaign with an interesting message. Replace "the white race" with "masculinity" and this panel neatly sums up how I feel about every one of these drips that makes this argument. Can't they just pay a guy that at least looks masculine to say this stuff for them? 
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Nov 9, 2021 02:11
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Carew posted:He just needs to add anime and vtubers to the list. Paul Gosar already came out as pro-anime earlier today. https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1457829352813498371 https://twitter.com/RepGosar/status/1457493879003963398
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Nov 9, 2021 02:11
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Holly is an extremely useful idiot who is a very simple-minded fashion. He will eventually be stepped on by another fascist. He's nothing more than a cotton type mouthpiece with the same facial structure because this is what they want. A slim black haired white man who literally looks like the fuckong G-Man to spit generic white centered phrases that are semi meaningless. I mean literally talking about masturbation and video games is only there to fire people up to pay attention to something so much less boring which is politics. It's boring and literally "Make masculinity great again" what a loving yawn fest. These fascists have no issue with their homoerotic homophobic masculinity of making cock jokes and making GBS threads out of their mouths whenever they see a case to make a that's what she said or anally it whatever joke. The statements just don't have the steel. Like they would absolutely like to say the same things as their SS comrades however it would reveal the mask just a little too much for them in public. They'd rather bury it in they're boring articles.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:14
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Paul Gosar already came out as pro-anime earlier today. Isn't Attack On Titan the one where it became super obvious at some point that the writer was some kind of ultra-nationalist? What an on the nose choice.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:16
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ElegantFugue posted:Isn't Attack On Titan the one where it became super obvious at some point that the writer was some kind of ultra-nationalist? What an on the nose choice. Yes.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:18
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Deteriorata posted:People are "talking themselves into it" because it is a verified historical fact. Passing good policies that benefit the nation are rarely rewarded with electoral success. Seriously, like the entire last century is just one long laundry list of good things the Democrats have passed that people would now not even consider living without. From social security to medicare, modern U.S. infrastructure and the welfare state is the Democrats doing. (The last Republican who wasn't completely worthless was Eisenhower who put in the Interstate Highway System.) Voters have 100 years of good Democratic legislation to draw from if they want to base their vote on actual policy. But all that good policy means nothing to them. It doesn't matter. These quotes from the VA Women's focus group say it best... quote:We ask an open ended why did you vote for Glenn Younkin? Some of the responses. So literally all Republicans have to do is run on "Compassionate Trumpism" and that's enough for them. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 02:20
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ElegantFugue posted:Isn't Attack On Titan the one where it became super obvious at some point that the writer was some kind of ultra-nationalist? What an on the nose choice. The manga did yes. The anime is a bit behind of the obviously fascist stuff.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:How has it been almost 3 days and nobody knows why half a dozen people seemed to have died from heart issues, another several were trampled to death, several dozen were in ICUs, and another 200+ were injured? cuz it appears to be a bog standard trampling/crowd management fuckup. cardiac arrest just means peoples' hearts stopped, it doesn't mean there was some heart-targeted foul play. cardiac arrest is what you'd expect for people getting crushed Sephyr posted:Not usually in people with young/healthy hearts. If it was just syncopes and people then beimg trampled, it would be one thing. But a full coronary event is weird, and several even more. there's no reason to assume that people at a concert are all young and in good health. also from accounts, people were being crushed while still standing. substantial external pressure on the torso absolutely kills people regularly, see, for example, all the people who die while being restrained Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 02:20
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Sephyr posted:Not usually in people with young/healthy hearts. If it was just syncopes and people then beimg trampled, it would be one thing. But a full coronary event is weird, and several even more. I feel like we'd know if it was drugs. Plenty of people need to shed their liability both publicly and legally, and a post-mortem tox screen doesn't take very long.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:21
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-Blackadder- posted:Seriously, like the entire last century is just one long laundry list of good things the Democrats have passed that people would now not even consider living without. From social security to medicare, modern U.S. infrastructure and the welfare state is the Democrats doing. (The last Republican who wasn't complete worthless piece of poo poo was Eisenhower who put in the Interstate Highway System.) You haven't provided a list of "100 years of good Democratic legislation" you provided a list of "Good Democratic legislation from about 100 years ago." How long should a political party continue to get credit for something done by long dead people? Should republicans continue to have credit for ending slavery? I agree that all those things are good, and that Democrats fought for them and by and large Republicans opposed them. But it doesn't make sense that T-Mac should run on... "Democrats did Social Security" as a campaign.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:27
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until there's evidence beyond a cop who was working crowd control (and who therefor obviously has an interest in not being found liable for the deaths) making an entirely uncorroborated claim, the vastly simpler and so far entirely sufficient explanation of too much crowd in too little space combined with other more typical concert factors seems by far the better explanation. and yeah it's entirely likely people were on some drugs, but tbh that's a whole separate issue from whether the crowd was managed in a catastrophically negligent way, which unambiguously appears to be the case.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:32
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ElegantFugue posted:Isn't Attack On Titan the one where it became super obvious at some point that the writer was some kind of ultra-nationalist? What an on the nose choice. Ehhhhh. The morality of AOT is super janky but I'm not sure I'd call it ultra-nationalist. Most of the governments shown are depicted as deeply flawed or corrupt and following them blindly isn't exactly shown to be a good thing. The manga is more about cycles of violence and how violent actions done in the name of breaking the cycle often just end up perpetuating it. Unfortunately the author decided to throw in a lot of random holocaust imagery towards the end which muddies the water a lot since nazis are literally the one group of people you can kill (in minecraft and/or on the moon) and not feel bad about.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:34
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:jfc: He's insane.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:38
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New Jersey Dem Boss Norcross is spooked by last week's election results and predicts a bloodbath next year (not of course taking into account the Bipartisan bill just passed, or that covid swelled gop turnout) (Politico Article, grain of salt, etc)
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Nov 9, 2021 02:39
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karthun posted:100% absolutely, That's how these conservatives kept on getting elected. I haven't seen any evidence of this in my historical reading; most historians I've read attribute conservative congressional gains in the late 30's to the economic downturn of '37-38. Even then, the Dems held onto their majority for the next several decades, passed the Great Society programs, and managed to even hold onto their majority in the House through Reagan. This was a function of the fact that they had, in fact, made life considerably better and more stable for a wide swath of American voters. The famous quote from a late-1940s suburbanite sums it up perfectly: "I own a nice home, have a new car and am much better off than my parents were. I've been a Democrat all my life. Why should I change?" socialsecurity posted:You have any proof that both this was the main issue driving out voters and that they voted in anti new deal people because they didn't know? This discussion sparker from an actual deep dive into voter intentions and you are countering it with wide generalizations. Actually, this discussion sparked from the extremely wide generalization that voters do not reward good policy electorally. The fact of the matter is, the New Deal was excellent policy, and voters rewarded the Democrats for it for quite a long time, even after the Democrats started moving away from its populist principles. e: and again, FLIPADELPHIA might be correct - that type of success just may no longer be replicable in today's political environment. I'm not arguing that point; I'm asserting that voters have historically rewarded good policy that's communicated effectively on at least a few notable occassions. Majorian fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 02:42
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Grouchio posted:New Jersey Dem Boss Norcross is spooked by last week's election results and predicts a bloodbath next year (not of course taking into account the Bipartisan bill just passed, or that covid swelled gop turnout) An insurance executive who's a self-described and "reagan Democrat" and his take is leftists are the problem. 
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Nov 9, 2021 02:49
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Jaxyon posted:All you have to do is interview some workers and people in the crowd and most likely they already know what the deal was. No, safety and accident investigations normally take a long time. If a large plane crashes, you're lucky if you know the root cause in a year. Serious multiple car crash or train derailment takes months. It takes a long time to gather evidence and interview people and piece everything together. And no, "most likely what they already know" is not some shortcut to a real answer. Folks shouldn't really be speculating until more information is known. Just look at the Rust shooting - the night of, everyone was talking about how "Baldwin was just playing with guns" and now the picture is a hell of a lot more complicated. Why bring up this unsupported conspiracy that Live Nation somehow has their thumb on the scale? Specifically how is LiveNation inappropriately intervening here? Where is your evidence?
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Nov 9, 2021 02:50
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Grouchio posted:New Jersey Dem Boss Norcross is spooked by last week's election results and predicts a bloodbath next year (not of course taking into account the Bipartisan bill just passed, or that covid swelled gop turnout) lmao, it's not that it's in politico, it's what norcross says in the interview: quote:His take is that the elevation of avowed socialists like Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) — who campaigned with Murphy days before the gubernatorial election — reinforces Republican depictions of the party as pro-tax socialists who want to defund the police.  HEALTHCARE EXEC BLAMES SOCIALIST FOR DEM LOSS eta: tho this is all politico: 
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Nov 9, 2021 02:52
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Solkanar512 posted:No, safety and accident investigations normally take a long time. If a large plane crashes, you're lucky if you know the root cause in a year. Serious multiple car crash or train derailment takes months. It takes a long time to gather evidence and interview people and piece everything together. And no, "most likely what they already know" is not some shortcut to a real answer. Absolutely nothing. I'm not an expert on anything remotely related to this and I hate Live Nation and blame them, based on them being awful. I never said anyone had to agree with me. You miss 100% of the baseless speculations you don't make.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:01
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Hellblazer187 posted:You haven't provided a list of "100 years of good Democratic legislation" you provided a list of "Good Democratic legislation from about 100 years ago." How long should a political party continue to get credit for something done by long dead people? Should republicans continue to have credit for ending slavery? The point was unless the Republicans have passed better legislation than the Democrats lately than it makes no logical sense to favor Republicans over Democrats if you're a rational voter casting a policy-based vote. And if the parties hadn't realigned and Republicans weren't so foaming at the mouth racist they'd probably still have a solid amount of black voters. It's part of why my entire extended family back east wouldn't vote R on pain of death, despite many of them being pretty socially conservative. quote:I agree that all those things are good, and that Democrats fought for them and by and large Republicans opposed them. But it doesn't make sense that T-Mac should run on... "Democrats did Social Security" as a campaign.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:10
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From the new Suffolk poll, and following up on econ-chat: That's a whole lot of people with warped perceptions. The sampled demos are interesting, bc the survey included more xers & millennials (as individual groups) than it did boomers.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:11
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Willa Rogers posted:From the new Suffolk poll, and following up on econ-chat: "Recovery" is the only remotely positive choice and 3/4 of the people didn't pick it. Whatever you think is the correct choice, that's overwhelmingly people who don't think the economy is going good for them. And if the polling weighs more people who disproportionately don't have money(genx and younger), then there you go.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:15
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Crosby B. Alfred posted::jfc: He's insane.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:18
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