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CPColin posted:Also Armus is an Ensign now He's still really loving angry, he just doesn't kill people now.
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Nov 9, 2021 00:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ1JD6zhfXg Anyway, speaking about Generations...
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Nov 9, 2021 00:58
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lol you know I had no clue Kirk was dead. Like, I mean, I assumed he was dead by TNG and later as a mortal, but I never knew that he died in an actual movie, assumed he died of old age as an admiral or retired or something. why does kirk have an avenger's badge?
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Nov 9, 2021 01:22
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Khanstant posted:lol you know I had no clue Kirk was dead. Like, I mean, I assumed he was dead by TNG and later as a mortal, but I never knew that he died in an actual movie, assumed he died of old age as an admiral or retired or something. That's the Starfleet service badge of the Movie era. It got a chip knocked out of it in the fight with Malcolm McDowell.
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Nov 9, 2021 01:45
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SlothfulCobra posted:Presumably that would've led to some kind of clashes between Odo's security and Cardassian management, especially in the later days when the Cardassians would get more desperate to make the occupation stay productive and cut corners. Maybe Odo would've even exploited the inherent contradictions in Cardassian laws since they were written with the expectation of fascist true believers executing policy. I can definitely see Odo making waves by holding actual trials instead of show trials and treating Bajorans like they had rights. Maybe Odo even assisted the removal of occupation forces and the restoration of Bajoran workers to their homes towards the end. Maybe the resistance was willing to deal with the prosecution of terrorists for the sake of those other benefits. Maybe Odo changed how he ran security after that incident. Who knows. I get the impression that the Cardassians didn't even bother with show trials for Bajorans. I think it's the situation where if you live in a society where you're not considered a person and can be murdered for absolutely no reason at all and no consequence, somebody who actually cares if you're guilty before he executes you is going to be seen as a hero.
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Nov 9, 2021 02:09
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Brawnfire posted:Dodo
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Nov 9, 2021 03:12
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Hollismason posted:I thought the show made it pretty clear that while Odo thought he was a good guy and that he was serving justice in reality he wasn't and was just as bad as the occupiers , he was just self delusional. To be fair he was like eight at the time.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:14
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Epicurius posted:I get the impression that the Cardassians didn't even bother with show trials for Bajorans. and yes, I would think that even the hosed up Cardassian 'justice system' wasn't used for Bajorans since the general Cardassian opinion was that they were inferior.
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Nov 9, 2021 03:21
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Also under Cardassian law the accused is considered guilty until proven innocent. Odo worked for a inherently corrupt system and was complicit in maintaining the status quo of a occupying military force. The whole series has Odo like this he's rigid and by the book to a loving fault. It's a weakness of his not a strength. This is shown through out the series.
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Nov 9, 2021 05:17
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odo was explicitly brought in because dukat was trying to do his benevolent dictator thing and wanted to use odo as a way to show he was "fair" by having someone not cardassian and therefore to his eyes impartial as his investigator in a case, and it kept going from there. odos whole thing with the idea of justice and order are a specist essentialism because all founders have that and it was being exploited, and no one involved knew. hell, the show only very rarely motions towards that connection. odo fundamentally didnt have a choice in getting into that position, and he felt that by doing it in a way he felt was objective could be the most fair to the bajorans without having to risk himself getting caught actually helping them, and that position hardened a little. thats why kira cuts him slack, odo had a gun to his head to perform his duties the same way any other bajoran did. that said, he definitely starts the show full on in his fascism and part of what makes him interesting is because he doesnt exactly have an arc, but more goes in a circle, growing and understanding his role in things only to at the end take his place in the fascist gestalt collective in the hopes that the things and people he has seen will affect them the way it has him.
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Nov 9, 2021 05:30
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remember when mirror odo got exploded? great stuff
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Nov 9, 2021 05:51
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Paper Lion posted:odo was explicitly brought in because dukat was trying to do his benevolent dictator thing and wanted to use odo as a way to show he was "fair" by having someone not cardassian and therefore to his eyes impartial as his investigator in a case, and it kept going from there. odos whole thing with the idea of justice and order are a specist essentialism because all founders have that and it was being exploited, and no one involved knew. hell, the show only very rarely motions towards that connection. odo fundamentally didnt have a choice in getting into that position, and he felt that by doing it in a way he felt was objective could be the most fair to the bajorans without having to risk himself getting caught actually helping them, and that position hardened a little. thats why kira cuts him slack, odo had a gun to his head to perform his duties the same way any other bajoran did. that said, he definitely starts the show full on in his fascism and part of what makes him interesting is because he doesnt exactly have an arc, but more goes in a circle, growing and understanding his role in things only to at the end take his place in the fascist gestalt collective in the hopes that the things and people he has seen will affect them the way it has him.
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Nov 9, 2021 05:53
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LividLiquid posted:If people would've just not rooted for the loving nazi they wouldn't have had to change him. I've got zero sympathy for the writers here, seeing as they were dumb enough to toy with the idea of having Kira and Dukat get together.
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Nov 9, 2021 07:58
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Marx Headroom posted:There's a throwaway like at the beginning where the Bajoran delegation gave Odo an award and said something like "He worked for the Cardassians but he only served justice." Work looked totally in his element when he's on Satie's hunt for a Romulan spy network.
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Nov 9, 2021 10:43
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Mx. posted:remember when mirror odo got exploded? great stuff Agreed. Odo really should of exploded more often.
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Nov 9, 2021 11:04
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CPColin posted:Also Armus is an Ensign now
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Nov 9, 2021 11:35
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I love that last conversation between Q and Picard in All Good Things. Picard thanking Q for the helping hand and Q sheepishly admitting that he was compelled to cause the crisis on orders and wanted Picard to succeed doesn't fundamentally change their relationship of exasperated stuffy Englishman and trickster god, but it does mean that it gets closed off with the positive nuances emphasised and lets Q off the hook successfully for a story in which he 's threatening genocide.
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Nov 9, 2021 11:39
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I love the moment when Q acts like he’s about to whisper in Picard’s ear then pulls back “You’ll find out…” it’s an oddly intimate moment and it works so well
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Nov 9, 2021 14:47
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LividLiquid posted:If people would've just not rooted for the loving nazi they wouldn't have had to change him. They didn't have to change him at all
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Nov 9, 2021 14:58
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https://twitter.com/shack_diesel/status/1458113094933106689?s=20
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Nov 9, 2021 19:41
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Dukat would totally take horse paste.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:50
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im sympathetic to the writers of DS9 about the whole dukat situation because at least some of the horny dukat/kira energy is entirely alaimo's doing and much of the later documentary work along with contemporary aol writers room chats make it pretty clear that he was adding an energy to scripts and scenes that no one else involved really foresaw, and certainly didnt see the fandom at large picking up enthusiastically. to paraphrase one of their statements, "who wants to see hitler and anne frank fall in love???"
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Nov 10, 2021 00:07
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I'm honestly not sympathetic because Alaimo frankly had a better handle on the character than the writers There's a quote from someone like Behr along the lines of "I think Alaimo did his own thing so much because he thought if he played it exactly how we wrote it Dukat would be a one dimensional cartoon" No poo poo, he was right, Dukat post DS9 occupation is a dreadful character!
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Nov 10, 2021 01:47
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Waltz is awful because it simply exists to nuke Dukat’s character. It was one step removed from him just popping up on a view screen and screaming “I’m eeeeeeeevil now!”, then rolling credits. Hell, his rant at the end might as well have been “I, Dukat, the bad guy, vow to kill you, Ben Sisko, the good guy”.
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Nov 10, 2021 01:57
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I'm actually kinda fine with the idea of Dukat snapping and just being Evil for the last season, it just got wrapped up in the incredibly half-baked prophets/wraiths plot
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Nov 10, 2021 02:02
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Reminder I need to finish DS9 someday. The pah-wraiths sounds so laughable. I'm imagining a fire keese in zelda basically somehow kicking this whole species and wars rear end and it's like, how?
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Nov 10, 2021 02:05
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That story was hyped up as awful for so long I was glad it was mostly just meandering and pointless while the rest of the finale was largely unconnected and really good. Also the stuff with Winn in the first few episodes is good at least
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Nov 10, 2021 02:10
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Waltz is fine because Dukat is and always was evil, Waltz just laid that bare and stripped away the veneer. That reminder of how terrible a person like that is was worth showing.
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Nov 10, 2021 02:16
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i think another part of things is the metatexual issues that nana visitor had at the time, and how clearly inappropriate alaimo was to her so consistently. but like i said, sympathetic to the writers. dont entire condone how they did handle it, only that i understand their motives and do think something had to happen. they just kinda dropped the ball a bit. at least they tried to help and clearly did care though
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Nov 10, 2021 02:20
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Star Trek writers (which isn't unique to them) are never good at scale and scope. Fifty years and 15 million died? That 300,000 per year thing is hilariously low for a planetary scale event. I mean, if the high count estimates are right, the Allied Occupation of Germany killed 400,000 people per year, without counting all of the German soldiers that disappeared into the Soviet Union. If the Germans had been able to run their genocide for 50 years, they'd have cracked 100,000,000 at the rate they were going. Granted, they were intentionally killing millions instead of the "if he dies, he dies" labor model that Cardassia seems to have been using. This is, after all, a series were we've been spending decades trying to figure out how a global nuclear exchange only killed 600,000,000.
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Nov 10, 2021 02:25
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HD DAD posted:Waltz is awful because it simply exists to nuke Dukat’s character. It was one step removed from him just popping up on a view screen and screaming “I’m eeeeeeeevil now!”, then rolling credits. Although the episode in Season 7 where he is running a Pah-Wraith cult is pretty great
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Nov 10, 2021 02:44
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Sash! posted:This is, after all, a series were we've been spending decades trying to figure out how a global nuclear exchange only killed 600,000,000. 
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Nov 10, 2021 02:56
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I have heard people saying Alaimo was a huge dick and a lot of Memory Alpha articles seem to dance around the subject without directly commenting on it. If I wanna read all about his douchebaggery where should I look?
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Nov 10, 2021 04:15
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I don't think that's the case at all. Some Tumblr people equivocates him with his character and in the documentary when he jokes about how he wanted more romance scenes with Kira that was enough for eternally online types to declare he must really be a bad guy for real
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Nov 10, 2021 04:23
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ISB and Visitor are about as blunt as they can be without outright saying (intentionally, there's also a hilarious freudian slip from her) anything in What We Left Behind
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Nov 10, 2021 04:41
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Peyote Panda posted:That used to seem awfully low to me but now thanks to current events I can rationalize that as representing 75-80% of the remaining global population by then. For 600,000,000 to be 75 percent of the population, the world would have to have just 800,000,000 people. Where did the 7,000,000,000 go over the next 20 years? Especially without Star Trek having some sort of completely unmentioned catastrophe that killed 7 out of 8 people.
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Nov 10, 2021 04:56
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It's all in the plan by George Soros and Bill Gates to reduce the population by planting sterility treatments in the covid vaccine.
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Nov 10, 2021 05:00
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Winifred Madgers posted:It's all in the plan by George Soros and Bill Gates to reduce the population by planting sterility treatments in the covid vaccine. The SorosGates SG-1 plan
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Nov 10, 2021 05:02
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Winifred Madgers posted:It's all in the plan by George Soros and Bill Gates to reduce the population by planting sterility treatments in the covid vaccine. The people who continue to deny this basic, obvious truth are either delusional or in league with the pro-Vulcan satanists.
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Nov 10, 2021 06:47
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I'm not sure that the writers really had much of an idea of what to they were going to do with Cardassia until they did it, so that probably left the direction Dukat was going in his life a little confused. There's a common depiction of nazis in media as being suave and capable and aloof, but when you dig into real fascism and its failures as a system, you usually find that the people at the top are emotionally unstable and they stumble over themselves when trying to exert their will, breaking the system that they create in the process, which makes everything seem more harsh and arbitrary. That's what differentiates fascism from other forms of authoritarianism. Initially, the show presents Cardassia as a more stable autocracy, Garak really tries to sell the idea of Cardassians as having totally psychologically adapted to their governmental conditions. Garak and Dukat are the fist type of TV fascist, but as they moved towards Cardassia being a more direct threat instead of just a tense neighbor, they had to awkwardly push them towards the second type of fascist, which they could just show Garak being a little broken, but they had to shift Dukat a lot further to be the villain of the new Cardassia. And it's supposed to be a reveal recontextualizing the entire character so he was always like that underneath, but it's a loose fit. I guess there's also the whole thing where most Cardassians (but especially Garak) lie about everything, so their whole society is a mystery sometimes. I think the thing that sticks out most to me is how they talk about family being very important to Cardassians, but all the families are offscreen, any you get things like Dukat cheating on his offscreen family, Garak having been totally disowned by his father out of paranoia, and Damar failing to protect his offscreen family.
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Nov 10, 2021 06:54
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