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I will say that it's probably still worth having aspirations/obsessions as a non-mechanical thing, because they are very good at making you think about what character beats you're actually aiming for. Beats are just... a lot more awkward mechanically than you'd hope.
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Nov 3, 2021 20:44
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I occasionally feel a little bad at having stripped out beats and conditions from the game, but Mage 2e is better than 1e in literally every other way so 
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Nov 3, 2021 21:05
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cptn_dr posted:I occasionally feel a little bad at having stripped out beats and conditions from the game, but Mage 2e is better than 1e in literally every other way so I don’t feel bad about it at all. We ended up only using conditions for big things and then ended up using environmental tilts a lot. But because it wasn’t tied to beats, the effect this had was making gameplay better and more consistent. I also live by the creed that if it’s not working at the table, we just skip it. Mechanically this tends to work more often than not and leaves us arguing about mechanics much less to where we mostly don’t argue about them at all anymore.
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Nov 3, 2021 21:09
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blastron posted:I'm having some trouble with CofD Aspirations (and, in Mage, Obsessions). In my last game, the players treated them effectively like a checklist of things to do every session, optimized on a per-session basis to gain them the maximum number of Beats. They were always appropriately aspirational and always fit their character, but they were also tailor-made for each session based on what they thought they were going to be doing. If they were going on a heist, for instance, everyone would take heist-related Aspirations that were effectively guaranteed to be resolved that session. If someone wound up missing an Aspiration, then that was treated as a failure and wasted XP. I tried asking them to come up with longer-term ones that were either aligned with the group's long-term plans ("let's build a magical fortress") or focused on each character's motivation ("I need to be there for my kids") but then they'd try to shoehorn them in to every session so that they could get that box ticked. It started getting pretty adversarial after a while so I just abandoned the system entirely and just gave them the beats. In my opinion, this is the wrong way to use Aspirations. The player should never have a reason to worry about missed Bears and XP. Aspirations are a list of things someone wants to see during the session and it's on the Storyteller to make it happen (within reasonable expectations). If a character's Aspiration is to break up with their ex, it usually means their player wants some interpersonal drama and should be able to at least have a scene about their character's ex. If you ignore that, you get exactly the result you mentioned: players tailoring Aspirations to what they expect to happen during the session, because anything else is suboptimal.
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Nov 4, 2021 12:47
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Jhet posted:This is the correct way to use them unfortunately. Pick something you think you’re going to do so get the beats. It’s not super ideal, but does give the table an idea of what everyone wants to do. yup, page 28 in the blue book explicitly tells players to try and come up with Aspirations such that they'll complete about one per session i'm a qualified defender of the Conditions-become-beats system and of incentive-based leveling in general, but Aspirations have never worked well imo. Demon has a special set of Agenda-based conditions that encourage PCs to act out their stereotypes and to bend (but not break) group cohesion, which are basically written like recurring long-term Aspirations, and if you don't like static XP then a good compromise might be to adapt something like that to whatever kind of game you're running Gantolandon posted:In my opinion, this is the wrong way to use Aspirations. it's bad design but it's not the player's fault. there's an intrinsic tension between player-driven storytelling and the reality of how session prep works in a system as heavy as Chronicles, and Aspirations run headlong into that. the failure state you're describing is a failure state but it's one that's almost inevitable unless every single one of your players is an experienced roleplayer and a self-starter and the GM is on the ball every single session these are good things to strive for but the rules don't really help you get there, at best they just tell you you should be there already and at worst they make actively contradictory demands Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 14:10
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Gantolandon posted:
Enjoying this typo
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Nov 4, 2021 14:39
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Beats were a cool system. Giving coterie/party exp as a flat thing with everyone getting a flat amount is also the way to go to avoid one upmanship bullshit. Some people say to also/alternatively give a big lump of exp to the group to let them them divvy it up based on the needs of the group, but IMO that's not in the spirit of the game, plus it's messy as gently caress and probably will lead to drama.
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Nov 4, 2021 15:11
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For my last several campaigns we did end of session questions - did you beat a condition, did you fulfill an ambition, did you attend, plus some specific ones to supernaturals (e.g. promethean's pilgrimage effectively provides these already). Each grants a regular XP or a splat-specific XP, and that got us to like...3-4 XP per session most of the time which feels like a good pace for us.
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Nov 4, 2021 15:16
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After mage and Arcance XP, I added splat flavored XP to all my games that could only be spent on powers as well as group xp that was spent on combined resources that anyone in the group could pull from and was spent as a team. I also controlled when you could spend XP on raising your power stat. Edit: went without mentioning that these are group beats Soonmot fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 16:32
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I wish more people were into Trinity cause I'm liking the new one a lot. The setting changes feel pretty organic and the rules look good (I've yet to really try them though). There were a few yikes (especially concerning China), but overall a very good game line. I like how they made Del Fuego an ecoterrorist Big Boss instead of the weird drug lord mastermind he was in the original game.
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Nov 4, 2021 16:58
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I think the way some friends of mine are doing aspirations beats is: A) Group beats, obviously B) You get a beat if you fulfill or meaningfully advance/engage with your aspiration, such that if you have a big aspiration like "raise an army" you'll get a beat when you recruit a soldier, get a beat when you secure some weapons, etc One nice thing they report is that, unlike our group's conventional system of just giving flat XP per session with maybe some extra at big story moments or chapter conclusions, it means that strings of sessions that cover a lot of playtime but a relatively small amount of in-character time (long conversations and such) don't end up advancing characters in ways that feel weird or out of kilter with the story. Like, a big confrontation is coming up, so the more we stretch out our campfire chat the night before the higher stats we'll have going into it. Things like training times can also deal with this but those are kind of a pain in themselves.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:09
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Trinity/Aeon 2e is definitely a lot cleaner, but man, the lack of the large, full-color fiction section just makes it so much harder to get anybody interested in the setting. It really spells out the difference between the White Wolf products of then and now.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:12
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My big problem with the beats/aspirations system is when you are running online so it is like each game is a quarter-slice of what would be a regular play session.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:44
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Rand Brittain posted:Trinity/Aeon 2e is definitely a lot cleaner, but man, the lack of the large, full-color fiction section just makes it so much harder to get anybody interested in the setting. Yeah, and a lot less artwork. I didn't find pictures of the Psi Order Proxies anywhere in the book. As funny as the old bad 3d models and awkward photos where, they showed the characters and gave some life to the setting. I think theyr eused the old black and white picture of the Aeon Society for Gentlemen though.
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Nov 4, 2021 20:59
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*I* didn't use the Beat / Aspiration system RAW, and I was partially responsible for creating it. When I run Mage, I flip the two xp tracks so you have one for everything including magic and one specifically only for mundane things. Fallen Beats, rather than Arcane ones. It's in service to my group, who greatly enjoy the tension between "real" life and the Shadow persona in their characters.
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Nov 4, 2021 20:59
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Dave Brookshaw posted:*I* didn't use the Beat / Aspiration system RAW, and I was partially responsible for creating it. That in fact sounds like it'd be a good for all the CoD stuff. What was your XP/Beat rate?
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Nov 4, 2021 21:03
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Looks like I'm gonna be playing in a game Mage 20. If we put aside the bad Brucato lore, what's else is good/bad with M20? I didn't get it.
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Nov 9, 2021 22:11
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MonsieurChoc posted:Looks like I'm gonna be playing in a game Mage 20. It's an incredibly complex and crunchy game written by someone who absolutely did not understand or care about the mechanics but didn't see any reason why they should be simpler. There's an entire book of helpful mechanical explanations that does nothing but make things worse.
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Nov 9, 2021 22:32
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Rand Brittain posted:It's an incredibly complex and crunchy game written by someone who absolutely did not understand or care about the mechanics but didn't see any reason why they should be simpler. Yikes. I tried convincing the ST to use Revised, but he thought M20 was better.
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Nov 9, 2021 22:38
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MonsieurChoc posted:Looks like I'm gonna be playing in a game Mage 20. By comparison I would call WtA an unfocused and objectively bad game where I cringe at most of the factions and shake my head at the mechanics design. M20 is worse.
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Nov 10, 2021 00:15
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I'm far from being a well versed guy in wod but imho mage had the biggest conceptual leap of all the series for the best and that's from someone who only skimmed its surface (hell for that reason alone I truly do get why magechat happens and it's magnificent) M20, on the other hand, just left me with a "whatthe" even though it is much more familiar to me
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Nov 10, 2021 00:34
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Rand Brittain posted:It's an incredibly complex and crunchy game written by someone who absolutely did not understand or care about the mechanics but didn't see any reason why they should be simpler. Haven't read either, so I'm interested in how the second book made the mechanics worse?
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Nov 10, 2021 00:35
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Yeah I want a deep dive into what's wrong with M20.
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Nov 10, 2021 01:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:Silver Ladder are Communists while the Free Council are anarchists. I must absolutely know everything about this
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Nov 10, 2021 02:35
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The Free Council literally started with the Paris Commune IIRC.
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Nov 10, 2021 02:45
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dead gay comedy forums posted:I must absolutely know everything about this Well, the Silver Ladder wants to create a world where everyone is awakened and see themselves as the vanguard leading the Sleepers towards this state.
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Nov 10, 2021 03:09
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Doesn't the Ladder itself represent different rungs in the form of social classes that are the overall goal, with the Mages at the top and the Demoi at the bottom? There's movement, if you're not a terata that they've 'fixed' or killed off, but communism itself (at least ideally) seems to be about the abolishment of separate social classes.
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Nov 10, 2021 04:08
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No? Where do people get this stuff? The entire point is for everyone to be mages. The Lie prevents this from being realized, and abolishing the Lie is the goal of the Pentacle Orders. The Silver Ladder section in 2E literally opens with "magic is humanity's birthright" and the whole page that follows is a list of descriptions of how they try to guide people to Awakening in practical terms. As far as the metaphor goes, that is the abolition of class. e: The Star precept lays out a hierarchically-organized plan for resisting and overthrowing the Exarchs but that's a prerequisite for accomplishing any of the above. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Nov 10, 2021 |
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Nov 10, 2021 04:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:No? Where do people get this stuff? Silver Ladder book. It starts on page 55 but there's three pages of different "functional categories" that the Silver Ladder believe people can be divided into. quote:Inside the order and out, mages think Cryptopoly is a plan for world domination. This isn’t true but it isn’t exactly false, either. Cryptopoly is a model, an overarching concept théarchs use to manipulate Sleeper society. It prepares the way for Hieraconis, seeding key institutions with people and customs to help mages and hint at the existence of the supernatural. The Cryptopoly’s component groups are the scaffold upon which humanity will build a better world. Mages will rule, guiding Sleepers because they must. No one else can to take them to the true gates of power. While their end goal might be "Everyone Awakens" even that doesn't mean everyone's going to be on the same level. The Silver Ladder doesn't treat the freshly Awakened the same as someone who's been engaged with their Order for decades. Besides, if you're sticking everyone in classes until Hieraconis, if Hieraconis never happens all you've done is stuck people in classes. quote:The Demoi are everyone else: laborers, service workers, the homeless and middle managers — the people one sees every day. It’s tempting to think they can serve the order’s agenda only in groups, but every Demos has unique talents and social ties. They lack the opportunity, imagination or will to use their abilities to change society. The Lie lulls them into the Stag’s victim mentality and keeps them fast Asleep. Fortunately, the situation also breeds resentment; people at the bottom of the heap scramble for a way up and often Awaken because it’s the only alternative left. Enemies treat the Demoi like a faceless mass where every person is interchangeable. The Silver Ladder makes that stereotype its asset. When the great battle for Ascension comes, the Seers of the Throne won’t be able to draft foot soldiers from the streets. The Demoi will resist them and flock to Atlantis’ ancient banner.
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Nov 10, 2021 04:35
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nofather posted:Silver Ladder book. It starts on page 55 but there's three pages of different "functional categories" that the Silver Ladder believe people can be divided into. The distinction between Marxists and the anarchists is this: (1) The former, while aiming at the complete abolition of the state, recognize that this aim can only be achieved after classes have been abolished by the socialist revolution, as the result of the establishment of socialism, which leads to the withering away of the state. The latter want to abolish the state completely overnight, not understanding the conditions under which the state can be abolished. (2) The former recognize that after the proletariat has won political power it must completely destroy the old state machine and replace it by a new one consisting of an organization of the armed workers, after the type of the Commune. The latter, while insisting on the destruction of the state machine, have a very vague idea of what the proletariat will put in its place and how it will use its revolutionary power. The anarchists even deny that the revolutionary proletariat should use the state power, they reject its revolutionary dictatorship. (3) The former demand that the proletariat be trained for revolution by utilizing the present state. The anarchists reject this. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Nov 10, 2021 |
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Nov 10, 2021 05:14
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I know edition wars suck in most games but edition wars in WOD rule because they're so drat complicated.nofather posted:Silver Ladder book. It starts on page 55 but there's three pages of different "functional categories" that the Silver Ladder believe people can be divided into. It is extremely true to the majority of Marxists I know that they are invested in the destruction of capitalism because it is insufficiently skilled at maintaining the class distinctions they believe in.
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Nov 10, 2021 05:22
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Many of the Silver Ladder are definitely apparatchiks - those who believe that "all should be Awakened, but some must be more Awakened than others."
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Nov 10, 2021 05:26
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Leninist Théarchs vs Trotskyist Théarchs vs Stalinist Théarchs vs... And I guess an Hoxaist making magical bunkers somewhere.
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Nov 10, 2021 05:57
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Damned théarchs, they ruined the Silver Ladder
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Nov 10, 2021 06:11
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Reflections85 posted:Haven't read either, so I'm interested in how the second book made the mechanics worse? I'm very interested in the supplement talk. I think a lot of valid ground has been trod on what's bad about the M20 corebook and maybe the Book of the Fallen. But if even stuff like How Do You Do That and Book of Secrets are still introducing new problems, that's new ground to me.
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Nov 10, 2021 06:22
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Ferrinus posted:The distinction between Marxists and the anarchists is this: (1) The former, while aiming at the complete abolition of the state, recognize that this aim can only be achieved after classes have been abolished by the socialist revolution, as the result of the establishment of socialism, which leads to the withering away of the state. The latter want to abolish the state completely overnight, not understanding the conditions under which the state can be abolished. (2) The former recognize that after the proletariat has won political power it must completely destroy the old state machine and replace it by a new one consisting of an organization of the armed workers, after the type of the Commune. The latter, while insisting on the destruction of the state machine, have a very vague idea of what the proletariat will put in its place and how it will use its revolutionary power. The anarchists even deny that the revolutionary proletariat should use the state power, they reject its revolutionary dictatorship. (3) The former demand that the proletariat be trained for revolution by utilizing the present state. The anarchists reject this. Thank you. In this case neither seem to really fit an Order, at least neatly. But everyone becoming 'philosopher princes' in the Imperium Mysteriorum seems the opposite of abolishing the state. Suppose it depends on what the parallel for the state is. Tulip posted:I know edition wars suck in most games but edition wars in WOD rule because they're so drat complicated. One of the cool parts of Mage's setting is that it's mostly wrapped around ideas and events rather than individuals. You have characters like Merlin and Angrboda but concepts seem to have a bigger spotlight (while still letting you slip your own OC into them). I honestly don't know enough about Ascension to war about it, or even if this isn't true about it as well. quote:It is extremely true to the majority of Marxists I know that they are invested in the destruction of capitalism because it is insufficiently skilled at maintaining the class distinctions they believe in. Hm that seems more like a grudge against certain Exarchs than any Order stance. There is a cult in the Silver Ladder called Révolution Permanente that, like the name suggests, promotes revolutions. They tend to help anarchist and socialist causes, and it mentions that their support of the USSR and PRC ended up turning the rest of the Silver Ladder against them (after they became totalitarian).
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Nov 10, 2021 06:25
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This review sums up a lot of the M20 mechanical issues.
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Nov 10, 2021 07:46
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Ferrinus posted:The distinction between Marxists and the anarchists is this: (1) The former, while aiming at the complete abolition of the state, recognize that this aim can only be achieved after classes have been abolished by the socialist revolution, as the result of the establishment of socialism, which leads to the withering away of the state. The latter want to abolish the state completely overnight, not understanding the conditions under which the state can be abolished. (2) The former recognize that after the proletariat has won political power it must completely destroy the old state machine and replace it by a new one consisting of an organization of the armed workers, after the type of the Commune. The latter, while insisting on the destruction of the state machine, have a very vague idea of what the proletariat will put in its place and how it will use its revolutionary power. The anarchists even deny that the revolutionary proletariat should use the state power, they reject its revolutionary dictatorship. (3) The former demand that the proletariat be trained for revolution by utilizing the present state. The anarchists reject this. What a completely fair and unbiased summary of the difference between anarchists and Marxists.
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Nov 10, 2021 09:18
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cptn_dr posted:Damned théarchs, they ruined the Silver Ladder you théarchs sure are a contentious people
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Nov 10, 2021 09:32
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I prefer to sum up the difference like this. 
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Nov 10, 2021 09:40
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