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Cybernetic Vermin posted:there is no circumstance where it is not way way faster than python, messing up causes you to drop significantly below c speed python is at least consistently dogshit. "well yeah i accidentally made everything 10x slower, but at least it's still faster than python" is not a good thing to say at the post-mortem
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Nov 9, 2021 03:13
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Nomnom Cookie posted:python is at least consistently dogshit. "well yeah i accidentally made everything 10x slower, but at least it's still faster than python" is not a good thing to say at the post-mortem ok, python is indeed there for you for consistently slow.
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Nov 9, 2021 09:16
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fart simpson posted:the guy is pleasant enough to work with though. i submitted patches and even a whole library that got integrated into core pretty easily, and the main guy was friendly and pretty happy that i ended up working on improving some of the tooling (i wrote the first syntax highlighting definition and editor plugin for sublime text back when everyone writing elm was just using haskell syntax highlighting) fair enough, i must’ve read comments from someone with a particular bone to pick - which is bound to naturally happen in any opinionated project
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Nov 9, 2021 09:56
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:ok, python is indeed there for you for consistently slow. At my previous job, the analyst guys moved to python/numpy for speed reasons...from Matlab. (My job was to make it go actually fast by translating their python into C++ with SIMD and suchlike)
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Nov 9, 2021 14:23
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:ok, python is indeed there for you for consistently slow. it sounds a little ridiculous, but in the areas i work in that would make python a better choice. consistent latency is something you can plan around. inconsistent latency means unhappy customers
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Nov 9, 2021 15:07
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Nomnom Cookie posted:it sounds a little ridiculous, but in the areas i work in that would make python a better choice. consistent latency is something you can plan around. inconsistent latency means unhappy customers a way better argument against julia *there* is that the gc is unmitigated crap. plus if you actually have your program end up executing dynamic code mid-computation you'll have stalls in llvm you wont enjoy. however, actually unpredictable performance of the generated code as such is not something i recognize at all with julia. yeah you can make a path 10x slower if you send in a list with randomly assorted objects and home-built nulls instead of a float32 array, but that is hardly unpredictable (and even then it wont be slow as in slower than dynamic code should be, it'll just compile out something very general doing a lot of messing about with boxing). for paths where you really care the easy way is to just constrain stuff a bit, but it is also very friendly for figuring out exactly what happens and why. for example @code_typed/@code_warntype to for any expression dump a nicely annotated ast analysis with inferred types (see also @code_llvm and @code_native to show nicely formatted llvm/assembler for arbitrary expressions) in a sufficiently messy project where any collection might wind up containing anything and nothing has to be particularly fast as long as it isn't particularly slow this might not add up to something very useful, but julia is hardly "whoops i moved a comma and now my program takes forever" in nature.
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Nov 9, 2021 15:28
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cinci zoo sniper posted:fair enough, i must’ve read comments from someone with a particular bone to pick - which is bound to naturally happen in any opinionated project there's a few people who really hate him because they bet on elm taking off and becoming big only to be foiled by him not wanting elm to do that. he probably could have been clearer in the earlier days that the goal of elm is more to show that Better Things Are Possible and hopefully inspire other languages (which it has done for rust's error messages if nothing else) and not to be the next big language everyone writes web sites in, but i'm not sure he even knew that until elm started to get popular and he realized what a shift it would be to become a production-quality language/platform. outside of (accidentally?) misleading and frustrating people about the goals of elm it generally sounds like he's a perfectly nice guy and hopefully anyone getting involved these days is fully aware of that.
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Nov 9, 2021 16:39
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oh, that would explain a lot - i could definitely see fomo-esque angst arising in those circumstances
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Nov 9, 2021 16:44
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I went to a great conference where he was a keynote speaker and he gave a great talk and was friendly, welcoming, and happy to engage afterwards. Could be type theory nerds mad that he didn't include all their fancy wishlist things. SPJ, however, was at the same thing and seemed quite thrilled about elm's feature set. Edit: one of the most important things for a language designer is to say 'no' - this also makes people mad.
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Nov 9, 2021 18:24
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havelock posted:I went to a great conference where he was a keynote speaker and he gave a great talk and was friendly, welcoming, and happy to engage afterwards. It also has a bus factor of one and has had lots of breaking changes between versions. That said, it has done a lot to popularize the functional MVU model so it deserves credit for that.
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Nov 9, 2021 18:33
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well that MVU model also gave us redux so let's not get too hasty there
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Nov 9, 2021 19:21
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so, the scala community is imploding
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Nov 9, 2021 19:56
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rjmccall posted:so, the scala community is imploding good
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Nov 9, 2021 20:06
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is it scalaz's fault? hate those guys
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Nov 9, 2021 20:11
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I'm assuming it's because odersky is rightwing
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Nov 9, 2021 20:18
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rjmccall posted:so, the scala community is imploding
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Nov 9, 2021 20:18
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seems to be centered around scalaz and zio, yeah, but also going all the way to martin odersky and the project’s tolerance of, uh, free-thinking race realists
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Nov 9, 2021 20:19
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yeah scalaz and zio got that bad because odersky is very tolerant of those views and resistant to coc/please-don't-wish-death-to-20%-of-our-users efforts I think the latest thing is somebody saying "please stop using those libraries" and him saying "I hate this kind of identity politics" or that was the start of it at least
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Nov 9, 2021 20:22
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yeah, basically the zio project has some hard-right contributors who are also apparently shitlords in community spaces, and its project leadership (john de goes) doesn’t care and has also specifically given conference platforms to e.g. mencius moldbug. so now a different community project (typelevel) is cutting them off, leaving discords, removing integrations with zio projects from the source base, etc. odersky waded into this by decrying that “this kind of politics” has no place in his beautiful world of engineering some links: https://posco.medium.com/on-working-with-zio-projects-f5f256888b6e https://twitter.com/travisbrown/status/1457768641861230595
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Nov 9, 2021 20:38
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I read one of the scala forum threads on that this morning and it was unpleasant “if you’re being harassed for being trans or a woman or black, just don’t tell people you’re trans or a woman or black”
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Nov 9, 2021 20:42
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 what in the ever living gently caress is wrong with some people
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Nov 9, 2021 21:02
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coincidentally, i just learned earlier today about “pimp my library”
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Nov 9, 2021 21:04
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rjmccall posted:so, the scala community is imploding I would have thought this would have been along FP and OO lines, not these ones
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Nov 10, 2021 01:28
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scala is dumb anyways
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Nov 10, 2021 01:55
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Finally, I would like to propose a concrete step for Scala Center to take: do not ban people; instead, ban foul language, personal attacks, bullying, and ban mentioning other individuals’: gender (except pronouns), sexual orientation and sex life, religion, race, ethnicity, appearance, and political views. Somebody has brought up Rust as a positive example of a community taking an active political stance. However, this approach is very controversial, as this discussion[26] can show. In the discussion, the poster asks why Rust Twitter has expressed a stance against police brutality in the US, but was silent about brutal genocide of Muslim people in Myanmar. The question was never properly answered, because there is no good answer to it. I propose that Scala avoids similar dilemmas (which political issues to express solidarity with, and which not) by staying strictly professional instead. P.S. To those who like to throw word “bigot” around. Here is what googling “define bigotry” gives: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group . Hm, why does this sound familiar?
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Nov 10, 2021 03:23
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PL (Programming Language) thread: this is what googling “define bigotry” gives
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Nov 10, 2021 04:28
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you see a forum post with at least 26 footnotes and you know you're in for a good time
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Nov 10, 2021 05:33
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rjmccall posted:yeah, basically the zio project has some hard-right contributors who are also apparently shitlords in community spaces, and its project leadership (john de goes) doesn’t care and has also specifically given conference platforms to e.g. mencius moldbug. you mean, mr baldy mc-meathead right here has hard-right political beliefs? 
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Nov 10, 2021 05:47
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well this sure was an introquote:Hi folks, I have not read any of the comments above, because I am close to ending up on the street with my family, having used up my savings working on decentralised social networks, so that we can avoid the Police State that we are witnessing being deployed in front of our eyes. So I really can’t get into the debate here for lack of time.
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Nov 10, 2021 05:48
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thats how im starting every post from now on
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Nov 10, 2021 05:55
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havelock posted:Is there a better story for UI components / abstraction yet? I get that FP is not OO, but at the time I looked into it it seemed like the answer to 'How do I avoid a giant case expression that flattens the entire UI control hierarchy to the top level?' was 'You don't'. I understand the tension between exhaustive pattern matching in FP and trying to do abstraction, but that suggests to me that it isn't a great pattern to deploy for this scenario. well, if you mean hiding the messages down on lower levels then no, not really. but that's sort of an explicit choice. nothing in elm is done implicitly, the entire point of the design is to force you to handle every message and every case explicitly and structure the whole program as a single big tree. you can nest your structure by wrapping it but then you still need to pass the wrapped values up to the main structure that lives at the top of your program somehow. so in some sense you need to explicitly route everything still, yeah, and only the entrypoint source file can really have a direct line to the outside world, i doubt that will ever change. but if you mean packaging up component templates or whatever, yeah you can do that just fine. you just have to handle all the messages and commands and all that explicitly and wrap or pass them up. but i dont know what you mean about flattening stuff, it doesn't really force that. the normal pattern is to have a type definition for your Commands and Messages that basically just wraps the Commands and Messages from the next levels down, which do the same in turn
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Nov 10, 2021 11:04
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mystes posted:This is a language that enforces an incredibly annoying and inconvenient javascript interop model because the author is apparently more obsessed with functional purity than 99% of haskell users. Implying that people are unhappy with the direction the language went in because they're "type theory nerds" who wanted more monads or something is just... lmao. the biggest, most vocal complaint in the elm community for years until 0.19 was haskell people coming over and wanting typeclasses and higher kinded polymorhpism. purescript coming up lessened the pressure here. i guess these days the most vocal complaint has been version 0.19 breaking native modules that aren't in core and forcing the use of ports
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Nov 10, 2021 11:05
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FamDav posted:well this sure was an intro next para: quote:
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Nov 10, 2021 19:49
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akadajet posted:you mean, mr baldy mc-meathead right here has hard-right political beliefs? https://twitter.com/mwotton/status/1457995085753171974
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Nov 10, 2021 19:56
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gonadic io posted:However, this approach is very controversial, as this discussion[26] can show. In the discussion, the poster asks why Rust Twitter has expressed a stance against police brutality in the US, but was silent about brutal genocide of Muslim people in Myanmar. The question was never properly answered, because there is no good answer to it. hn poster: ah, u claim to care about police brutality... but why haven't you condemned this OTHER brutality... somewhere else? [nobody interacts with the tweet] hn poster: 
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Nov 10, 2021 22:56
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when you’re arguing in good faith
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Nov 11, 2021 01:59
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cinci zoo sniper posted:obviously the solutions to this is for me to write harambescript, which is going to be a soundly, strongly, and staticly typed procedural language with no exception handling. code that errors out will just be terminated cinci zoo sniper posted:it's also going to be 2-indexed and have no string type, only char type It sounds like dicts are out for harambescript?
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Nov 11, 2021 02:14
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VikingofRock posted:It sounds like dicts are out for harambescript?
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Nov 11, 2021 03:46
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lol
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Nov 11, 2021 07:45
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Every declared variable is available globally ‘cause all shots are no-scope 
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Nov 11, 2021 07:55
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