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Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
ohhh clean wehrmact is a good one, especially since halder helped write US army history documents

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Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Raskolnikov38 posted:

ohhh clean wehrmact is a good one, especially since halder helped write US army history documents

ahahaha holy poo poo I was not aware of that

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001
There's a bunch of stuff related to WW1, Christopher Clark talks about it in his book "Sleepwalkers" but yeah the clean Wermacht would be a pretty good example to look at with plenty of articles and books to work with.

Dameius
Apr 3, 2006
Back in September Suplex Liberace asked both threads for book recommendations and there were, by my count, roughly just shy of 100 books suggested depending on how you want to count collections and what not. To prepare for gift giving season I took all the recs and cleaned up the data to be easy reference. And since y'all did the heavy lifting for me I figured I'd pay it back by sharing all the cleaned up data if you wanted to review it and pick anything up from it. All links go to the Google Book page with exception of Debt, which still references the PDF.

Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years by David Talbot
Late Victorian Holocausts: El Niño Famines and the Making of the Third World by Mike Davis
War Plan Orange: The US Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945 by Edward Miller
The Radicalism of the American Revolution by Gordon S. Wood
The Wehrmacht's Last Stand by Robert M. Citino
The Global Minotaur by Yanis Varoufakis
In The Shadows of the American Century by Alfred W. McCoy
Armageddon Averted: The Soviet Collapse, 1970-2000 by Stephen Kotkin
White Shoe: How a New Breed of Wall Street Lawyers Changed Big Business and the American Century by John Oller
The Eastern Front 1914-1917 by Norman Stone
German Social Democracy and the Rise of Nazism by Donna Harsch
Approaching Vietnam: From World War II through Dienbienphu by Lloyd C. Gardner
The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939 by Antony Beevor
The Assassination of Julius Caesar: A People's History of Ancient Rome by Michael Parenti
Deng Xiaoping's Long War by Xiaoming Zhang
We are Cuba! How a Revolutionary People Have Survived in a Post-Soviet World by Helen Yaffe
Deng Xiaoping: A Revolutionary Life by Alexander V. Pantsov and Steven I. Levine
Blood Cries Afar: The Forgotten Invasion of England 1216 by Sean McGlynn
The Last Duel by Eric Jager
Greek Fire, Poison Arrows, and Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World by Adrienne Mayor
A most holy war: The Albigensien Crusade and the battle for Christendom by Mark Gregory Pegg
The Last Imaginary Place by Robert McGhee
The Coming of the Third Reich by Richard J. Evans
The Third Reich in Power by Richard J. Evans
The Third Reich at War by Richard J. Evans
The Emperor by Ryszard Kapuscinski
A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan
The Best And The Brightest by David Halberstam
1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric H. Cline
...and Forgive Them Their Debts by Michael Hudson
Life and Society in the Hittite World by Trevor Bryce
Soldiers and Ghosts by J. E. Lendon
Dancing in the Glory of Monsters by Jason Stearns
Debt: The First 5,000 Years by David Graeber
Napoleon: A Political Life by Steven Englund
The Blood Never Dried: A People's History of the British Empire by John Newsinge
The Wretched Of The Earth by Frantz Fanon
Killing for Coal by Thomas G. Andrews
A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear by Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling
A Nation Under Our Feet by Steven Hahn
The Great Mortality: An Intimate History of the Black Death, the Most Devastating Plague of All Time by John Kelly
killing hope by William Blum
Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era by James M. McPherson
Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus by Rick Perlstein
Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America by Rick Perlstein
The Invisible Bridge: The Fall of Nixon and the Rise of Reagan by Rick Perlstein
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America by David Hackett Fischer
The Making of the English Working Class by E. P. Thompson
Suburban Warriors: The Origins of the New American Right by Lisa McGirr
Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877 by Eric Foner
The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism by Edward E. Baptist
Shake Hands with the Devil: The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda by Roméo Dallaire
The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy by J. Adam Tooze
Crimea by Orlando Figes
A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution, 1891-1924 by Orlando Figes
Stayin' Alive: The 1970s and the Last Days of the Working Class by Jefferson Cowie
U.S. Capitalist Development Since 1776: Of, By, and for which People? by Douglas Fitzgerald Dowd
The Korean War by Max Hastings
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann
1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created by Charles C. Mann
Mohawk Saint: Catherine Tekakwitha and the Jesuits by Allan Greer
The Great Leveler: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century by Walter Scheidel
American Slavery, American Freedom by Edmund Morgan
The Age of Napoleon: A History of European Civilization from 1789 to 1815 by Will and Ariel Durant
Age Of Empire: 1875-1914 by Eric Hobsbawm
Age of Revolution, 1789-1848 by Eric Hobsbawm
The age of capital, 1848-1875 by Eric Hobsbawm
Huey Long by T Harry Williams
Ten Days that Shook the World by John Reed
The Paris Commune of 1871 by Frank Jellinek
Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson
Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety by Eric Schlosser
The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program That Shaped Our World by Vincent Bevins
Russia in Revolution: An Empire in Crisis, 1890 to 1928 by S. A. Smith
The Baron’s Cloak: A History of the Russian Empire in War and Revolution by Willard Sunderland
Former People: The Final Days of the Russian Aristocracy by Douglas Smith
The Cold War: A World History by Odd Arne Westad
The Global Cold War: Third World Interventions and the Making of Our Times by Odd Arne Westad
Segregation: A Global History of Divided Cities by Carl Nightingale
King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa by Adam Hochschild
Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway by Jonathan B. Parshall, Anthony P. Tully
Facing East from Indian Country: A Native History of Early America by Daniel K. Richter
Clearing the Plains: Disease, Politics of Starvation, and the Loss of Indigenous Life by James Daschuk
Ramp Hollow: The Ordeal of Appalachia by Steven Stoll
Hammer and Hoe: Alabama Communists During the Great Depression by Robin D. G. Kelley
Montaillou: Cathars and Catholics in a French Village, 1294-1324 by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie
Food: A Culinary History from Antiquity to the Present by Albert Sonnenfeld, Jean-Louis Flandrin, Massimo Montanari
Words on Fire: The Unfinished Story of Yiddish by Dovid Katz
Co. Aytch: A Side Show of the Big Show by Samuel R. Watkins
Robert A. Caro's the Years of Lyndon Johnson Set by Robert Caro
Myth and Metropolis: Walter Benjamin and the City by Graeme Gilloch
The Price of Inequality: How Today's Divided Society Endangers Our Future by Joseph Stiglitz
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland by Christopher Browning

DarkEuphoria
Nov 7, 2012


Whoa nice, thanks for doing that. I wanted to make a list of books to choose from but it seemed daunting

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffLabrecque/status/1457800069944545281

Smythe
Oct 12, 2003
do... people not know who robert moses was?

AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018

https://twitter.com/ymatusik/status/1457850538566029315

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Raskolnikov38 posted:

ohhh clean wehrmact is a good one, especially since halder helped write US army history documents

I just finished reading "The Wehrmacht's Last Stand" and I wanted to share this excerpt:

quote:

The German Way of War: A Retrospective

And so ended World War II in Europe. What Rommel had called the “unequal struggle” had mercifully come to an end.45 The war that Hitler started and the Wehrmacht conducted so tenaciously killed at least 50 million people and destroyed a continent, all for naught. Hitler was dead. Germany was occupied and divided, a pariah among nations for its crimes, especially the attempted genocide against the Jews. The war shattered Germany’s reputation, transforming the land of Dichter und Denker (the poet and the thinker) to the land of Richter und Henker (the judge and the hangman). The country has yet to live down that reputation, and it probably never will. Anytime the reunited Germany—today a robust and powerful player in Europe—performs some controversial act on the international scene, someone will throw down the word “Nazi.”46 The German experience in World War II should be an object lesson against the notion of “rolling the iron dice” and resorting to a war of aggression.

And yet, for all the pain and suffering it caused, the Wehrmacht emerged from the war with its reputation intact. Its victories early in the war—Case White in Poland, Exercise Weser in Scandinavia, Case Yellow in the west, Operation Mercury, the airborne conquest of Crete—will always stand as innovative examples of modern mechanized operations.47 German generals rushed into print with their memoirs, and those written by Guderian, Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, and staff officer Friedrich Wilhelm von Mellenthin won a vast and fascinated reading audience in the West among those eager to learn the secrets of blitzkrieg. Likewise, a large body of popular West German authors like Franz Kurowski, Erich Kern, Jürgen Thorwald, and above all Paul Carell extolled the fighting qualities of the army, the level of comradeship within the ranks, and its heroic struggle against the odds. Their publishers were affiliated with the political far right, and they often wrote under pseudonyms to hide their past—either as soldiers of the Wehrmacht or as officials of the Nazi regime—but these details mattered little in the English-speaking West.48 All these authors painted a picture of commanders of genius and a heroic army with “clean hands,” that is to say, men who would never have dreamed of carrying out atrocities against civilians and who condemned in no uncertain terms the Nazi Party and SS monsters who did so. With the West locked in a frightening new struggle against global communism, the Wehrmacht looked not so much like a former enemy but rather a forerunner: the first to take on the Red Army and the only force in the world with deep experience fighting the Russians. Wehrmacht worship in the West reached a peak in the 1980s, as the US Army began rereading Clausewitz, studying the campaigns of Moltke the Elder, and rediscovering Königgrätz and Case Yellow.

That pleasant consensus on the Wehrmacht has now unraveled, and the notion of the army’s “clean hands” is gone forever. Scholars have meticulously catalogued the crimes of the Wehrmacht, the military’s participation in the Shoah, and the merciless slaughter of civilians on the Eastern Front and in the Balkans. A traveling exhibition with that very title—“War of Annihilation: Crimes of the Wehrmacht”—moved across Germany beginning in 1995 and was seen by almost a million Germans.49 The damning photographs and textual evidence generated rage in some of the visitors, including those who thought that the exhibition slandered the memory of their fathers and grandfathers, but it caused shock and horror in many more. Scholarly interest in the Wehrmacht today is more likely to center around its participation in mass murder than its military operations. Our reassessment has likewise extended to the memoirs that formed so much of the historical memory of the Wehrmacht, and historians working in the primary documents have had a field day deconstructing some of Manstein’s or Guderian’s more fanciful claims and blatant omissions—especially their tendency to heap all blame on Hitler for decisions and failed operations in which they were deeply complicit.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
Red Army Faction was completely correct to rain terror down upon their nazi complicit parents generation

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/wrathofgnon/status/1458005197121212416
https://mobile.twitter.com/wrathofgnon/status/1458008426395553794

lollontee
Nov 4, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
kinda thinking that in retospect participating in the nürnberg trials was a mistake for Soviets. it served as a legal capstone on the question of nazi war criminals by their omissions to prosecute many of the true perpetrators

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yujF8AumiQo

mycomancy
Oct 16, 2016

Get in losers, I'm making a new honey-backed cryptocurrency called BeeCoin

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.
I just finished Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans After the Second World War and this part specifically has haunted me and I'm doing my best to erase the memory of reading it with booze

quote:

The Yugoslavs became particularly adept at finding soft spots in the border across which parties of expellees could be spirited. In some cases, whole trains and their passengers were simply abandoned once they had crossed the frontier. The Reuters news agency reported the fate of a cattle-truck train containing 650 Volksdeutsch women and children from Maribor in Slovenia which had been sent northward at the end of September 1945. Its passengers received no food other than what they had brought themselves. After reaching Vienna the train was turned away by the authorities. Sixteen days later, it remained “in a siding at Wilfersdorf, forlorn and unattended, while children die and women go insane.”

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.
Just the thought of that locked cattle train full of women and children sitting neglected on a railroad siding for over two weeks is a little too much for even my jaded brain.

frankenfreak
Feb 16, 2007

I SCORED 85% ON A QUIZ ABOUT MONDAY NIGHT RAW AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY TEXT

#bastionboogerbrigade

Raskolnikov38 posted:

halder helped write US army history documents
:stare:

birdstrike
Oct 30, 2008

i;m gay
https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1459186349236535296?s=21

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Already deleted, what was it?

This is why screenshots are better.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Already deleted, what was it?

This is why screenshots are better.

It was something like "going by the analysis that anti-communists use, I can conclude that some 1-3 million people died during the Travis Scott concert"

skipmyseashells
Nov 14, 2020

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.
Holy poo poo

mycomancy
Oct 16, 2016
Fuckin' lmao

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/mythic_0/status/1460330981651537924

need an answer to this and this thread seems like the closest fit

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
doesnt look like it sealed very well so i'm gonna say no

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011



this cant be right ive been assured by reliable sources that women are inherently antifascist

Cloks
Feb 1, 2013

by Azathoth

Some Guy TT posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mythic_0/status/1460330981651537924

need an answer to this and this thread seems like the closest fit

hope this isn't a witch bottle

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

BREADS

Some Guy TT posted:



this cant be right ive been assured by reliable sources that women are inherently antifascist

Bund Deutscher Mädel [League of German Maidens]?

More like “Bund Deutscher Matratzen” [League of German Mattresses].


This is a period joke after at least nine hundred of them became pregnant at the 1936 Nazi Party rally at Nuremberg.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1462055318603677696

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
there’s no way that body hasn’t been dissolved in lime

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Raskolnikov38 posted:

there’s no way that body hasn’t been dissolved in lime

And if anyone actually knew where it was and was going to talk, they would have used it for leverage decades ago.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
Jimmy Hoffa deez nuts

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/KFILE/status/1463572077932433414

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

in more substantial posting

https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1463656297061130240

quote:

His father-in-law made provision in his will for the emancipation of the Custis slaves within five years. But, to do that, Lee has to make Arlington profitable, and old man Custis had really let the place run down to the point where the books were just a mess. So Robert E. Lee, Mr. Engineer, says, “All right, well, first thing we’re going to do is we’re going to make Arlington profitable again. Then we’re going to emancipate everybody.” And the Arlington slaves look at this and say, “Wait a minute. We actually believe that his will emancipated us on the spot at his death, not ‘Wait for five years.’ ” This sets up resistance, which Lee treats very harshly. Then, when three of the Arlington slaves run away and are apprehended in Maryland and brought back to Arlington, Lee just loses it completely. He tells the Arlington overseer, “Take the whip and lay it on.” The Arlington overseer refuses. And so he turns to the constable who brought the slaves back to Arlington. He says, “All right, you do it.” Which the constable does, but, at least in one account, it is said that Lee took a whip in his own hand and laid it on. Afterward, Lee does not want to talk about this. It gets into the newspapers. He is deeply mortified by it. And when he finally has to write to Custis Lee, he says, “Your grandfather has left me a very unpleasant legacy.” And, again, what I’m looking at here is the façade of this man. The perfect façade. It cracks at that point. And something really elemental comes out of that crack, which he at once stuffs right back in.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYt0khR_ej0

Some Guy TT posted:

in more substantial posting

this is quite an interesting interview

quote:

We started with you talking about Robert E. Lee and all the positive books about him, and then a march at Charlottesville with white supremacists and the President of the United States not condemning it. Many of the things you’ve said and that we’ve talked about suggest to me that there is some way in which racism is very deeply woven into our country. Is critical race theory helpful in that sense?

I mean, it’s one thing to say that racism has been a chronic American problem. It has. Slavery itself was the birthmark of the American Republic. We paid a severe price for that. We continue to pay a price for it. And I suspect we will continue to pay that price into the future for, at least, some time. I don’t think it’s a question of: Do we demean the significance of race in American history? The question is: Are we going to make things all one single explanation? I think history is a lot more complicated than that. But, if we’re going to say that everything in American life is therefore rendered null and void because of race, then I think we’re dealing with an exaggeration. If everything is rendered null and void by race, how is it we’re able to talk about race at all?

What do you mean?

Well, if race has made any discussion of race null and void, nobody can really talk about it, because everyone is a captive of their particular race. Then why are we talking? Why are we having a discussion about race at all? We should not be able to rise above that, but we do. Happily, we do.

and there was maybe one instance in this interview where Guelzo gets "caught out" by Chotiner with respect to the characterization that he's a Trump supporter, that Guelzo has to deflect from (if that), but it feels to me like this is an interview where the subject isn't as dumb as a box of rocks that walks into a number of rakes all because Chotiner actually read the subject's work and describes it back to them as-is-where-is

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

lmao did bill go to the same school as trump

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon


looks like a typical american to me

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

slaves being presented as unreasonable for not believing they would ever actually receive deferred emancipation is interesting because their getting screwed out of deathbed freedom was a super common thing related entirely to how slaves were the estates most valuable effective assets and no amount of good accounting would be able to offset their loss

this leads into an actually correct critique of the 1619 project because slavery in the yet to become united states wasnt originally conceived as plantation slavery but as an alternate form of indentured servitude with laws concerning it being written accordingly and laws that work well for indentured servants work very different for chattel slaves especially when the ones that grant discrete benefits are the only ones that end up being changed

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

https://twitter.com/gundamcel/status/1464329147661139976?s=20

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Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

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