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It has more to do with Fritz Leibers The Big Time than Moorecock. Order vs Chaos has been a concept that's been around for decades in fiction it wasn't just Moorecock who came up with it.
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Nov 7, 2021 21:59
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Again, Babylonian mythology predates both those dudes by just a little bit.
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Nov 7, 2021 22:04
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Grand Fromage posted:Again, Babylonian mythology predates both those dudes by just a little bit. Not sure if there are any stories that it doesn't predate
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Nov 7, 2021 22:48
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sebmojo posted:you have such an irritating way of putting things. Everything there, apart from Epic Pooh and possibly Mother London, is part of Moorcock's multiversal to-and-fro ebb and flow of Law and Chaos though. I can see Vorlons as Law and Shadows as Chaos, making Sheridan an agent of the Balance. Hollismason posted:It has more to do with Fritz Leibers The Big Time than Moorecock. Order vs Chaos has been a concept that's been around for decades in fiction it wasn't just Moorecock who came up with it. MrL_JaKiri posted:Not sure if there are any stories that it doesn't predate
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Nov 8, 2021 00:51
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The vorlons aren't really Law though, it's not like they lay down instructions, and the shadows aren't chaos because chaos isn't trying to strengthen through conflict it just wants blood and souls and poo poo. There isn't a strong sense of balance as a virtue in b5. Moorcock literally has a big balance appear in the sky at one point (it was the 70s)
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Nov 8, 2021 01:01
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The Vorlons absolutely laid down instructions. Thousands of years of religious texts for every species in the galaxy, all full of Vorlon conditioning and imagery is about as clear an instruction as you can get. They explicitly demand obedience.
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Nov 8, 2021 01:10
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Do they? They destroy worlds with shadow influence, sure, but where in the series did they rule and command? there's a rough parallel with law/chaos and the zorlons/shadows, but that's not a cowriter credit it's a fairly obvious idea that's part of the cultural background radiation at this point. in particular the idea that you need both is something that's explicitly denied at the end of s4. e: lol u bastard shbobd, ok let's call this a draw: quote:One of the others Lords of Law (or, in that case, one of the Ladies) mentioned through the Von Bek's saga is Miggea, the Mad, Duchess of Dolwic. Taking the shape of a beautiful lady in full armor, riding a white wolf as a mount, she represents degeneration of Law, which is utter destruction of all worlds corrupted by Chaos, i.e. all worlds. hilariously her name is an anagram of Maggie, for reasons anyone who was alive in the UK in the 80s will understand
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Nov 8, 2021 01:15
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sebmojo posted:Do they? They destroy worlds with shadow influence, sure, but where in the series did they rule and command? They do so via proxies, and via commands that they have laid down through ancient prophecies and religious texts; What is the Book of G'Quan but a book of Vorlon Commands, hidden in a narn religous text? Why does every species venerate them? Why does Kosh call Sheridan disobedient and impudent when he tries to defy the Vorlon plan? They literally send out their designated torturer to beat the poo poo out of Delenn to test her loyalty. Just because they don't give direct orders, does not mean that they do not establish themselves as firmly in control at all times, until they are explicitly defied by Sheridan et al.
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Nov 8, 2021 02:20
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Chevy Slyme posted:The Vorlons absolutely laid down instructions. Thousands of years of religious texts for every species in the galaxy, all full of Vorlon conditioning and imagery is about as clear an instruction as you can get. They explicitly demand obedience. The Vorlons feature in a lot of religions, but not all religions. They might've done some heavy influencing on the younger races, but they didn't really dictate all that much directly. I think the Minbari are the ones they influenced the most heavily from manipulating them into leading the first alliance to slay the Shadows, and that definitely changed a lot about the Minbari as a culture. But even then, they had Valen do most of the work, because somehow that didn't break "the rules". The Vorlon figure in Narn religion was G'Lan, who was actually some kind of alternative to G'kar's favored prophet of G'kwan.
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Nov 8, 2021 02:38
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Grand Fromage posted:Again, Babylonian mythology predates both those dudes by just a little bit. You keep saying that but so what? I'd be interested in a compelling case for the influence of Babylonian mythology in B5 because I don't see it beyond the undergraduate "all stories are from Babylonian mythology" take. On the other hand, Harlan Ellison contributed a lot to B5 and regularly collaborated with Moorcock. Dwarfs existed before Tolkien but if I grab a pulp fantasy novel from the dollar store the "dwarves" will be from Tolkien right down to the spelling.
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Nov 8, 2021 03:24
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All right, if I can ever think of a reason why Babylon 5 might have a connection to Babylon I'll be sure to let you know about it.
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Nov 8, 2021 03:32
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Or I guess this. https://twitter.com/straczynski/status/1453891358792372230
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Nov 8, 2021 03:32
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Did he talk about it at all during the Usenet days? That seems like the selective historical editing that JMS's twitter is known for. That's an assertion by JMS, I don't really see it supported in the text of B5. For example, Lorien doesn't map to Apsu at all. Also, lol at putting in two posts. OnlyBans fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 03:51
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OnlyBans posted:Did he talk about it at all during the Usenet days? That seems like the selective historical editing that JMS's twitter is known for. That's an assertion by JMS, I don't really see it supported in the text of B5. For example, Lorien doesn't map to Apsu at all. who does lorien map to in moorcock?
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Nov 8, 2021 04:05
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Chevy Slyme posted:Why does Kosh call Sheridan disobedient and impudent when he tries to defy the Vorlon plan? They literally send out their designated torturer to beat the poo poo out of Delenn to test her loyalty. and Kosh is apparently the kindest and most benevolent Vorlon around outside of that outburst towards Sheridan, his replacement certainly dispenses with any illusion of standing alongside the younger races and working for their benefit
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Nov 8, 2021 04:11
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JMS seems to like to deny that they had any influences whatsoever and it seems like it's a insufferable position
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Nov 8, 2021 04:23
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sebmojo posted:who does lorien map to in moorcock? I'd leave that up to a Moorcock expert such as yourself. I am saying I don't see clear links to the Babylonian creation myth beyond a war between various generations of gods. I just know the frozen-in-crystal Order imagery and such and that he worked a lot of Harlan Ellison so it makes sense to see his stuff pop up in there. Most of my Moorcock comes from WH40K cribbing from Moorcock and the Vorlons are very much like the old gods of Order and the Shadows have plenty in common with the gods of Chaos. When you start looking at two different 2nd gen copies of an original, you can expect to find some similar artifacts. The original copy was slightly off-center so that element is preserved. Hollismason posted:JMS seems to like to deny that they had any influences whatsoever and it seems like it's a insufferable position Yup. It's fair to say he's not a reliable witness in this case.
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Nov 8, 2021 04:48
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Hollismason posted:JMS seems to like to deny that they had any influences whatsoever and it seems like it's a insufferable position Seriously? Four posts previously is a tweet from JMS addressing that his primary influence for the Order vs Chaos thing is Babylonian mythology and your response is that JMS denies all influences? There’s plenty about JMS to get salty about. It doesn’t take much effort at all, really. Even calling him insufferable for refusing to acknowledge any recent influences on his writing would be fairer than this. (He does acknowledge recent influences, too, he just gets very upset when people respond to his writing by suggesting that anything in his work resembling something else must have been lifted from that work.) Not really interested in engaging with OnlyBans, but “JMS didn’t slavishly copy every single detail from Babylonian mythology, therefore he was really influenced by Moorcock” makes absolutely no sense at all. Shorter JMS tweet: “Both Moorcock and B5 are influenced by Babylonian mythology.” Making the case that the real influence is the recent one, not the older one, requires direct evidence of the Moorcock references in the show, and in particular, must differentiate between the Babylonian model and the changes Moorcock made. If B5 conforms better to Moorcock’s variations from the original source than it does to that original source, you could have an argument.
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Nov 8, 2021 05:32
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I genuinely don't understand why "no I wasn't intending to crib from x" is such a controversial statement to some people. You can argue about whether there's unintentional influence and I think there certainly is, but when the question is if he intended to do a thing and he says no, he didn't intend it, I don't see a reason to think he's lying.
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Nov 8, 2021 05:52
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sebmojo posted:who does lorien map to in moorcock? The Captain.
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Nov 8, 2021 11:01
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sebmojo posted:The vorlons aren't really Law though, it's not like they lay down instructions, and the shadows aren't chaos because chaos isn't trying to strengthen through conflict it just wants blood and souls and poo poo. There isn't a strong sense of balance as a virtue in b5. Moorcock literally has a big balance appear in the sky at one point (it was the 70s) That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the full scope of Chaos in Moorcock there (too much WH40K influence perhaps?). The Chaos Engineers (Captain Billy-Bob Begg and her crew and colleagues) for example are not after anything of the sort. Moorcock from "Blood" posted:The two philosophies will war for eternity or else be reconciled. Reconciliation is ever the hope of the Chaos Engineers but the idea is utterly loathsome to all units of the Singularity. Taken as a whole neither force can be adequately described as "good" or "bad"*, this isn't a simple black/white dichotomy, rather both can be negative when the Balance is too far in their favour and positive when pushing against such a situation. The Eternal Champion can be an agent of either side, depending on the context their individual stories place them in, despite all being facets of the same overarching identity. Corum is an agent of Law, Jerry Cornelius an enthusiastic agent of Chaos, for example. *Likewise with the Vorlons and Shadows in Babylon 5 I'd argue. Jedit posted:The Captain.
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Nov 8, 2021 12:54
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EmptyVessel posted:Begg or Quelch? Neither - the Captain of the nameless ship. He leads the Champion to where he needs to be, tells him what he needs to do and how it needs to be done, but can't intervene directly unless certain conditions have been met because he's ultimately a servant of the Balance.
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Nov 8, 2021 13:02
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Jedit posted:Neither - the Captain of the nameless ship. He leads the Champion to where he needs to be, tells him what he needs to do and how it needs to be done, but can't intervene directly unless certain conditions have been met because he's ultimately a servant of the Balance. Oh yeah, good call.
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Nov 8, 2021 13:28
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Narsham posted:Not really interested in engaging with OnlyBans, but “JMS didn’t slavishly copy every single detail from Babylonian mythology, therefore he was really influenced by Moorcock” makes absolutely no sense at all. That's not my argument which makes me think you aren't engaging in any kind of good faith.
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Nov 8, 2021 23:23
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Not sure if there are any stories that it doesn't predate The missing Seventh Sister (Pleiades), some Australian songlines, child-snatching monster in the water, but not much else, yeah.
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Nov 9, 2021 13:23
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JMS says he "prefers going to primary sources", not that he never does. His influences where they do come from other sources, he is completely transparent about. e.g Za'hadum, Rangers from LOtR, The Prisoner TV show, etc. He just gets pissy when someone insists a bit is from something and won't take "No, it actually wasn't" for an answer.robziel in the Blind Watch thread posted:Convinced my roommate to start watching B5 yesterday afternoon and he powered through the pilot, which I told him he didn't have to watch first, and probably the first 8 episodes. I like the cut of your jib.
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Nov 9, 2021 15:23
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The pedant in me requires that I point out that Babylonian mythology (which the original comment cited) is not remotely the oldest recorded set of stories - Sumerian is what you're looking for. There is also no reason that oral traditions other than the Australian songlines can't contain traces of extremely old stories - the Australian aborigines are not some peculiar sub-set of human being with extraordinary story telling abilities somehow denied to folks elsewhere (and suggesting such would be problematic for all sorts of reasons which I hope don't need explaining). For one example, the Irish folklore around the origins of Dowth Neolithic passage cairn, built roughly 5000 years ago, includes brother-sister incest and recent genetic work on remains from the neighbouring passage cairn at Newgrange revealed an individual with sibling parents.
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Nov 9, 2021 15:43
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So, can people show me the text supporting Babylonian mythology vs JMS lying and it just being Harlon Ellison channeling a person he'd been working with his entire professional life? Because I'm not seeing Babylonian mythology. I'm seeing a lot of Harlon challenging Moorcock.
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Nov 11, 2021 02:48
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He doesn't have to be lying to have unintentionally folded in more recent sources influenced by the same material, which is far, far more likely than him consistently telling the same lie for decades. No matter how much your fee-fees want him to be lying.
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Nov 11, 2021 03:11
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neongrey posted:He doesn't have to be lying to have unintentionally folded in more recent sources influenced by the same material, which is far, far more likely than him consistently telling the same lie for decades. No matter how much your fee-fees want him to be lying. I asked for non-recent sources. If it is a lie he has been saying for decades, it should be all over his usenet posts. I haven't seen those. I see a contemporary tweet. I also want to emphasize, the text itself doesn't seem to support this reading. I've asked (because it would be very cool) if someone who knew more about Babylonian mythology could make a case. I also haven't seen that. Likely because it doesn't exist. Edit: Like, if you are working with someone who is a lifelong collaborator with one of those "more contemporary sources" doesn't it make sense to think that the hooves we are hearing support that there are horses, not unicorns, nearby?
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Nov 11, 2021 03:21
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OnlyBans posted:I asked for non-recent sources. If it is a lie he has been saying for decades, it should be all over his usenet posts. I haven't seen those. I see a contemporary tweet. quote:Date: 25 Feb 1997 20:25:28 -0500 It also shouldn't be "all over" his usenet posts, because there was only a small window when a) it was relevant to what was going on in the show and b) had been revealed in the show. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 10:21
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OnlyBans was Shbobdb, which really puts this obnoxious derail into perspective.
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Nov 11, 2021 13:33
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EmptyVessel posted:The pedant in me requires that I point out that Babylonian mythology (which the original comment cited) is not remotely the oldest recorded set of stories - Sumerian is what you're looking for. You're absolutely right about the Sumerian v. Babylonian thing, and should be a pedant about it. And yes, there's no reason other oral traditions couldn't have info back 10kya, some probably do (see, as I mentioned, the multiply-preserved 7-6 sisters story). It's just that the particular nature of Australian songlines (they encode maps and how they've changed) means both they are VERY strongly conserved over time and we can match them up with events also recorded in the geologic record. For example, some PIE elements may predate Sumerian myth, but they're not well-conserved -- we only know about them because of their many derivatives. I understand there's some thinking that certain American traditions may preserve migrations 10-15kya, but I'm not up on the research and evidence on that (I'm also old enough that I remember pre-Clovis being distinctly fringey and the evidence for it highly suspect).
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Nov 11, 2021 14:42
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McSpanky posted:OnlyBans was Shbobdb, which really puts this obnoxious derail into perspective. The ignore feature is there for a reason. (It doesn’t work when other people quote the posts, BTW. Just an observation.) My rule of thumb: if someone online claims to want to have a discussion of a topic but spends a lot of time demanding you provide evidence to support your position while providing almost no evidence of their position, their purpose has nothing to do with actual discussion. Especially when their position is the extraordinary claim. The most laughable part of this “debate” is that “influence” somehow means “slavish duplication.” B5 is built around a Law vs Chaos conflict instead of Good vs Evil, and it isn’t clear that JMS took much more than that from Babylonian mythology. The idea that this influence has to be proven within the text at some higher level of consonance (Kosh = a specific Babylonian deity, for example) goes hand in hand with a completely different understanding of what the word “influence” means, and that different understanding in turn is what makes JMS see red whenever someone accuses him of essentially duplicating another author’s work. It is precisely because the Law/Chaos conflict is so rare these days that authors who do take up the idea (JMS, Moorcock) can be directly compared, but unless Moorcock’s version of the conflict leans heavily on abusive parents trying to force their children to choose sides, I expect the original source to be the common influence on both authors.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:01
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I though OnlyBans was IncelShok
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Nov 11, 2021 19:27
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Doctor Zero posted:I though OnlyBans was IncelShok They were all the same person.
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Nov 11, 2021 19:40
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I forgot how the GNN episode had a bit where the reporter was in a crowd and all the people in costume and alien makeup behind her were all...acting like how people in a crowd do when they're being filmed. Just everybody mugging and waving at the camera like how you normally really really don't want extras to do. That's fun.
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Nov 12, 2021 04:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:I forgot how the GNN episode had a bit where the reporter was in a crowd and all the people in costume and alien makeup behind her were all...acting like how people in a crowd do when they're being filmed. Just everybody mugging and waving at the camera like how you normally really really don't want extras to do. That's fun. One comparison B5 always wins over DS9: the station looks more lived in, with a larger and more diverse population than DS9 does.
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Nov 12, 2021 05:00
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mllaneza posted:One comparison B5 always wins over DS9: the station looks more lived in, with a larger and more diverse population than DS9 does. Which is why the hardest hitting scene for me in Sleeping in Light is Sheridan walking through the empty Zocalo.
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Nov 12, 2021 10:57
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mllaneza posted:One comparison B5 always wins over DS9: the station looks more lived in, with a larger and more diverse population than DS9 does. DS9, and the Trek world generally, just doesn't have TV. It doesn't have media as we know it. There's talk about media, but you don't get the people picking up and then recycling a newspaper, or random-looking reporting on TV, or the experience of being on TV.
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Nov 12, 2021 15:26
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