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What keeps me up at night is how it feels like we’re entering a late historical phase of …. something. A part of US history. The first phase of US history revolves around all the compromises built into the Constitution for slavery and then follow on compromises (Missouri, 1850, etc) to preserve the balance/institutional power of slaveholders. This ended, obviously, with the Civil War. The second phase began with the 13-15th amendments and their suppression by Jim Crow laws, plessy v ferguson, and separate but equal. Institutions still function but only because the “compromise” is now over allowing the suppression of black civil rights (ex: FDR’s New Deal passage with Southern support so long as he didn’t touch Jim Crow. Might as well call it the Compromise of 1932/34). So that phase ends in the 1960s with the Civil Rights era demanding the State recognize those rights outlined in the 13th-15th amendments and court decisions eliminating the legal structure of Jim Crow. Now you’ve got a Constitution amended enough to really encourage development of a multi-racial democracy (see also the expansion of the vote to women and the direct election of Senators) but with institutions still designed in an anti-democratic way (see: electoral college, the Senate itself, the Supreme Court itself). However, It feels increasingly like a student 100-150 years from now will learn of this time between 1965-20XX as a third phase of US history. A time of compromises focused around how democratic a society we were going to evolve into. A phase where, with white supremacy itself under siege culturally, politically, and demographically, a rump of hard right political forces weaponized the anti-democratic institutions and levers of power still available to it to prevent further erosion of its power. And with Jan 6th and the right further footsie-being with extreme mob/political violence, it feels like it’s coming to a head, and soon. Whether this ends with another generation(s) long period like Jim Crow or with violence like the Civil War, it will have to end with a declarative statement of “American society will not stand for ‘X’!” and the banishment of something to the dustbin of history. I just hope to god it’s the anti-democratic, white-supremacist ideology.
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Nov 14, 2021 07:03
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Not commenting on anything else in you historic description there, I think your final point has become fairly commonly felt and widespread since a couple years back.
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Nov 14, 2021 08:38
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Generation Internet posted:These people seem to stand for nothing except maintaining the status quo for their own benefit. I mean, it seems that way because it is that way. Every time we have an election it's the same poo poo.
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Nov 14, 2021 12:20
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Thwomp posted:What keeps me up at night is how it feels like we’re entering a late historical phase of …. something. A part of US history. I've been thinking about this a lot for the last year or so, too. Basically the same as you just said except I'm less and less hopeful. The demographic shift is real and inevitable and the forces of white supremacy know it. I fear that they are well aware that the window is closing to use the anti-democratic levers and the only way out is violence. I've been reading a lot over the last couple years and in a country where democratic institutions are perceived as failing, and a significant portion of the population has ethno-nationalist resentment against pluralism and liberalism which it sees as degrading the strength and purity of the country... The response has been fascist coup. We have an active fascist party. We had an attempted putsch. It failed that time but next time... I'm slowly working on an escape plan because I do not want to raise my children in a fascist state.
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Nov 14, 2021 15:29
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Best Friends posted:A legion of conservative white middle aged dems who believe they speak for black America, and who have the black lady gifs to prove it. They are 1% of the electorate and 25% of the internet, and if you've never encountered these people, be grateful. So grateful
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Nov 14, 2021 16:38
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Stultus Maximus posted:I've been thinking about this a lot for the last year or so, too. Basically the same as you just said except I'm less and less hopeful. I'm very interested in knowing how you think the Military would react to this. During Trump's years it seemed as though they were the voice of reason, probably simply because they know what an actual war looks like, but do you think they would support anyone invested due to a coup or would they fight it hand over fist? If they did side with the government do you think it would be over very quickly or would it escalate to civil war?
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Nov 14, 2021 17:14
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Burt posted:I'm very interested in knowing how you think the Military would react to this. During Trump's years it seemed as though they were the voice of reason, probably simply because they know what an actual war looks like, but do you think they would support anyone invested due to a coup or would they fight it hand over fist? If they did side with the government do you think it would be over very quickly or would it escalate to civil war? let's just say that in the history of fascist and/or totalitarian government takeovers, the militaries of the time have not exactly been the stalwart defenders of democracy.
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Nov 14, 2021 17:30
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The problem is that classic fascism, like a disease that got blasted with tons and tons of antibiotics, has mutated. Modern surviving strains don't really go in for the "bullet in the head of every and all political opposition as soon as I can do a coup" approach anymore. Like any good disease they've tempered the stuff that results in quick, showy deaths as that kills the host population too fast before they can solidify a foothold to circulate within and then the disease burns itself out. The hatred and desire for murder of all their same targets is still there, and is still the end goal, it's just kept on the down-low for a bit longer to cement control. The immediate goals of fascist now are stuff like the judiciary and law enforcement apparatus so the law can give them license to do what they want while still being "legal" and leaving enough fig leafs that the people who are very, very purposefully ignorant of reality can still claim they "don't see what the big deal is you're just over reacting it's only a joke can't you take a joke haha look at you being super serious why so serious owned much lib?" Jan 6 was a bit of a problem for the current strain infecting the US, they gave away the game. I don't expect more of that or big flashy government overthrowing type stuff. I don't expect us to get a single, shining moment we can point to where the takeover started and everyone had an obvious choice to make. It's just going to be a years long slide of a thousand paper cuts as more and more of the poo poo like gerrymandering and the destruction of the voting rights act gets implemented and everything gets more and more miserable and hate-filled.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:18
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First act of the replacement TAG in Oklahoma. BG Mancino is still pending confirmation; MG Thompson reports he found out about his unscheduled replacement via Twitter. https://twitter.com/DanSnyderFOX25/status/1459260283512406016?s=20
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Nov 14, 2021 18:21
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Burt posted:I'm very interested in knowing how you think the Military would react to this. During Trump's years it seemed as though they were the voice of reason, probably simply because they know what an actual war looks like, but do you think they would support anyone invested due to a coup or would they fight it hand over fist? If they did side with the government do you think it would be over very quickly or would it escalate to civil war? bird food bathtub posted:The problem is that classic fascism, like a disease that got blasted with tons and tons of antibiotics, has mutated. Modern surviving strains don't really go in for the "bullet in the head of every and all political opposition as soon as I can do a coup" approach anymore. Like any good disease they've tempered the stuff that results in quick, showy deaths as that kills the host population too fast before they can solidify a foothold to circulate within and then the disease burns itself out. Yup. The coup attempt was dumb and clumsy. Most Americans, including most of the military, will not accept that sort of thing. The takeover of the judiciary, the "constitutional sheriffs," and the progress of red states towards making elections easy to toss out by Republicans are the key ingredients. Democrats won't be banned, but a de facto one party state will form, leaving token Democrats to prove that the old system is still there. Democratic mayors and governors will still exist, but the piggies will just ignore anything they don't like. Rejecting the vaccine mandates nationwide is the test case.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:25
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"The rule of law" is just another broken piece of American infrastructure at this point.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:36
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It does feel like there is a ossification of politics and the old compromises are thinning to the point of breaking, very much like the mid 19th century. Unlike back then though, it's unimaginable that a new political party will form, let alone take the presidency and reshape America in short order. The dems are just going to resolve to do less and less to maintain their tenuous coalition of the haves and have nots, and the Rs are going to get even deeper into culture war stuff to maintain their own tenuous coalition between haves and have nots. All this madness and slow motion collapse imo comes from political factions being divorced from material interests. It's what makes the dems completely disfunctional and the Rs forever doubling down on crazy.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:44
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Honestly, everyone should just go watch Crash Course Black American History on YouTube. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8dPuuaLjXtNYJO8JWpXO2JP0ezgxsrJJ It’s seriously great stuff, and as a student (and former teacher) of history, it’s such a breath of fresh air into a pretty staid subject. Really opening my eyes more to alternative perspectives. Once you put the history of Black Americans at the center of US politics (whether through Crash Course or the 1619 Project), you can’t not see the history of the US as one of White Supremacy and the maintenance of the monied/powerful interest above all others. Only through the conflict against that system is progress achieved.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:45
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It's just really fun that no matter what happens the Democrats will just blame progressives and say well why aren't you doing more locally while hand waving away why we can't change anything nationally while they're in power. What a pimp group of resistance fighters.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:48
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Best Friends posted:It does feel like there is a ossification of politics and the old compromises are thinning to the point of breaking, very much like the mid 19th century. Unlike back then though, it's unimaginable that a new political party will form, let alone take the presidency and reshape America in short order. https://youtu.be/SECdW8n4ZGw This is a really good video on Lincoln’s rise to power and goes into the how and why mid-19th century conditions allowed for the new Republican Party to coalesce and win in 1860. The condition missing now that was present then was this national conversation about a single topic (slavery) that came to ahead over the violation of a longstanding compromise (the Kansas-Nebraska Act doing away with the Missouri Compromise). You’d need a constitutional crisis that necessitates the serious re-evaluation of the electoral college, the Senate, and/or the way Supreme Court justices are placed on the court. That would split the Dems between institutionalists and radical reformers (something we’ve already seen). And while the GOP would have an advantage, being a more homogenous party, I wouldn’t count out the chances of a new party springing up. One that could appeal to a broad constituency of people looking to reform the system and resolve the constitutional crisis for the foreseeable future. Of course, the GOP wouldn’t stand for it (it could also splinter as well into pro-business and pro-white supremacy factions). A new party winning would push the footsie-ing with secession into high gear. But we also now have mass media and a right wing media ecosystem that is just insulating and indoctrinating conservative leaning voters. Who knows what effect that’d have on any outcome. Thwomp fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 19:07
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Thwomp posted:Honestly, everyone should just go watch Crash Course Black American History on YouTube. Thank you for this link. I've been butting heads with a certain family member who likes to play the Conservative game of "well I don't see Color and you saying America is bad for Black people, means, YOU are being racist." while my wife is literally Black and I am trying to reach out to him so that when he becomes an uncle he has a relationship and can bond with and protect my children from America happening to them. He's fallen deep down a Praeger U hole into giving me a Ben Shapiro book for Christmas. He loves youtube so I'm really hopeful with this series and hope he and I can have a better understanding going forward.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:10
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Democrats doubled down and elected two people who have spent their careers helping maintain if not build the very systems y'all are talking about.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:11
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Stamped from the Beginning should be required text in HS
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Nov 14, 2021 19:19
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Honestly Democrats are just an opposition party that does not have to nor want to be effectual because that would get rid of the real goal of them enriching themselves and their friends. For all that we talk about the right wing having such a good amount of grift the Democrats are the real Major leagues on that one. If you look at the big societal changes that have happened in our lifetimes or the previous generations nearly all of them were fought against tooth and nail until well after they became majorly popular in polling, so expecting the Democrats to have some sort of ethical drive to do anything better than the status quo feels fairly nonsensical. Even now majority popular policies are barely discussed because there is still likely too much profit in their opposition.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:21
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Remember the time we were told $2000 check actually means a combination of other numbers and we just don't know how numbers and words work? Really have high hopes for these people to do the right thing
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Nov 14, 2021 19:24
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maffew buildings posted:Remember the time we were told $2000 check actually means a combination of other numbers and we just don't know how numbers and words work? Really have high hopes for these people to do the right thing Lol complained about that to a shitlib coworker of mine and they tried to shame me for "using fox news talking points to criticize Biden". Doubly annoying because they know I am a leftist.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:28
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bird food bathtub posted:The problem is that classic fascism, like a disease that got blasted with tons and tons of antibiotics, has mutated. Modern surviving strains don't really go in for the "bullet in the head of every and all political opposition as soon as I can do a coup" approach anymore. Like any good disease they've tempered the stuff that results in quick, showy deaths as that kills the host population too fast before they can solidify a foothold to circulate within and then the disease burns itself out. I keep thinking of this scene (the latter half, at least) from Sum of all Fears: https://youtu.be/Jsafd3d49BA
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Nov 14, 2021 19:31
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The only way to represent employees and employers at the same time is to either do nothing (d) or do stuff that doesn't actually change material $ reality (r) Somewhat related, it's darkly funny that we're in a legitimate crisis of transportation infrastructure and Buttigeig is basically invisible outside of getting documentaries about his personal life. Consultant through and through. But, the entire managerial liberal class that he epitomizes just doesn't believe government should be able to do much. I'm not sure he even conceptualizes that he might have a role in this crisis.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:31
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As I mentioned, I've been reading a lot over the last year or so. I've intentionally avoided recent books on fascism and authoritarianism, sticking to historical studies such as Paxton and Arendt. I didn't want to read books that either consciously or unconsciously tailor their study and conclusions to the current situation. That said, has anyone read How Democracies Die?
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Nov 14, 2021 20:20
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Thwomp posted:But we also now have mass media and a right wing media ecosystem that is just insulating and indoctrinating conservative leaning voters. Who knows what effect that’d have on any outcome. Yea, I suspect something so horrific would need to happen to break away conservative voters from the GOP in any meaningful number. No idea what would be, I don't even think bush on his death bed saying "I fabricated 9/11 with the help of my dear friend Donald J Trump, Mitch McConnel, and various other people in my cabinet" would do it.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:27
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Defenestrategy posted:Yea, I suspect something so horrific would need to happen to break away conservative voters from the GOP in any meaningful number. They've already unpersoned Bush. The entire point of Fox News and the right wing media ecosystem is to avoid another Watergate. Provide comforting distortions and outright lies to cover anything that the GOP could possibly do. Anything.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:29
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Best Friends posted:The only way to represent employees and employers at the same time is to either do nothing (d) or do stuff that doesn't actually change material $ reality (r) Yeah, my wife can’t understand that I’m pro paternity leave, but not when you take it at the exact moment you need to preform you job, that impacts every single American. He seems so aloof, like he doesn’t realize what is happening around him.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:41
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I cannot recall a single Secretary of Transportation that served during my lifetime. Was it LaHood for Obama? No idea. To be fair, he couldn’t do anything until the bill passed which it only did last weekend. And even then, how many individual projects require his signature within the first few days of the bill going into law? Besides, that’s the point of parental leave, to allow someone, even a critical individual, to have time with a new baby and bond without fear of job loss or reprimand. Could the timing be better? Sure. But when, in the history of children, have they ever come at a convenient time, all things considered?
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Nov 14, 2021 20:56
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Thwomp posted:To be fair, he couldn’t do anything until the bill passed which it only did last weekend. And even then, how many individual projects require his signature within the first few days of the bill going into law? with a minimum of planning, a shitton. like, day one should have given him carpal tunnel, because everything was already pre-written, reviewed, etc etc
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Nov 14, 2021 20:58
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^That’s assuming he and his staff had time not managing existing projects and funds and budgets to devote to plan for a bill whose passage was not at all assured. In a perfect world, sure yeah.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:01
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thats why I said with a minimum of planning, but its funny how gop politicians seem to have poo poo lined up and waiting for say, a judge who is pro-life to take the bench, but dems never have time/funds/whatever for a major national role to be prepared for a role defining bill to pass.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:04
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Thwomp posted:I cannot recall a single Secretary of Transportation that served during my lifetime. Was it LaHood for Obama? No idea. I get that and agree. It felt odd for some reason. Personal bias? Maybe. Maybe I expected more from someone who was trying to be the President. If the day to day wasn’t much, why wasn’t he helping lobby for the bill? Now that I write the above I’m beginning to think that my displeasure seems to be more generally directed at the administration as a whole, his circumstances are providing me a target. Frankly, I expected more of a “full court press” from the admin, not this disjointed whatever we’ve gotten.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:05
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Thwomp posted:I cannot recall a single Secretary of Transportation that served during my lifetime. Was it LaHood for Obama? No idea. It was Mitch McConnell's wife, Elaine Chau, under Turdp. Can't say I remember more than that, though, and only because of the obvious conflicts of interest with her even being there in the first place.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:06
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RFC2324 posted:thats why I said with a minimum of planning, but its funny how gop politicians seem to have poo poo lined up and waiting for say, a judge who is pro-life to take the bench, but dems never have time/funds/whatever for a major national role to be prepared for a role defining bill to pass. This is exactly what sets me off. I know it’s “everyone” in the party, but drat, this should have been nonstop “progress” rammed down America’s throat.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:07
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Sign up for secret satan you ingrates
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Nov 14, 2021 21:09
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RFC2324 posted:thats why I said with a minimum of planning, True. I know when I took paternity leave, I made sure to plan for things that could’ve happened so they could be handled. You’re absolutely right that something could’ve been tied up to be given the go as at least a photo op.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:12
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Thwomp posted:I cannot recall a single Secretary of Transportation that served during my lifetime. Was it LaHood for Obama? No idea.  Oddly enough I was never able to partly this knowledge in career or social benefits. I guess talking about Norman doesn't get people DTF.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:16
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What worries me is that Trump was right about one thing: Americans like winners. Right now, countrywide, no matter where, there's only about a 5-10% delta between Red and Blue. In too many places, it's within the margin of error. I'm in Virginia, and we just lost a Gubernatorial race in large part because Northern Virginia became ~3% chuddier since Biden took office. Guess how much Youngkin won by. One of John Oliver's most recent pieces had to do with the homeless, and he put a lot of focus on Austin, TX. And I remember one woman saying something to the effect of "every time I have to clean up human poo poo, my 'liberal' side dies a little bit more." That's why social programs are getting eliminated at a record pace, and why there's so much renewed vilification of subsidies and social support. Why the minimum wage *can't* go up. Because the fascists need an Other that the liberals want gone, too. Something that'll capture that last 5-10% they need to silence progressivism for the next 50+ years. A *win*, and unfortunately, the best *kind* of win, the one that (at least initially) comes at the cost of a segment of society we demonstrably don't give a poo poo about. A segment of society that gives the vanishing middle class a sense of pride of being "above." When democracy dies it won't be to the sound of jackboots, it'll be to the sound of rising property values, and people too blinded by the prospect of profit and societal ascension to realize they've already been dealt out of a fixed game they finally thought they'd be able to buy into. But it won't end there. The problem with Others is that there's a finite supply so long as you don't manufacture more of them. But thanks to  and the ever-rising cost of living, there'll always be new Others. People who "failed" America, people (and families) who "lost the game" and don't deserve their shot at the American Dream. I foresee a world where debtor's prisons are brought back (formally, not in the subtle way it's being done now) and made akin to concentration camps, where people (and families) will be sent to work off their debts, but will never reach that goal through sharecropper math. Of course, first it'll be the homeless (proof of concept), then minorities (probably starting with the Native Americans again as a trial case), then predominantly non-whites, and finally, the "enemies from within" who've always been "against the Party."And here's where I'm going to lose the Neo-Maoists (again): this is why I'll never come over to your side. As much as you want to deny or explain it away, China is already doing this. They're providing the rest of the world with a blueprint on how to cow your population into complacency amidst atrocity even in the era of 24/7 news cycles where everyone has a 4K+ video camera in their pocket. A constant drumming into their brains of "be happy with what you have or we'll take it away from you." It makes you *not* question the government (or the massive corporate conglomerates doing their dirtiest work), to turn away when you should look and speak up. It encourages blind support of those in control in the hopes of earning social capital. It makes you work a job you hate for only enough money to subsist and never thrive. But hey, BE HAPPY because YOUR TRIBE is winning! Sound even vaguely familiar? It's happening here, a cancerous tumor growing on the country's conscience, in the empathy centers of our brains. But it's not Stage IV yet. Stage III, maybe, but there's still a chance, however slight, to burn it out before it takes everything down. Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk and I'll have a Dave's Double with Cheese, no tomato. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 22:12
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Not commenting on anything else in you historic description there, I think your final point has become fairly commonly felt and widespread since a couple years back. This is why the "no reason to vote/blue no matter who hurrrrr" people bother me. No, a vote for Biden absolutely doesn't fix anything. Not at all. But it kept Trump out of office for four years. Unfortunately, I think these people will have their way in 2024, with the lovely center-right establishment Democrat losing the election. God knows who that will give the White House to, but it's certain to be worse.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:17
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Godholio posted:This is why the "no reason to vote/blue no matter who hurrrrr" people bother me. No, a vote for Biden absolutely doesn't fix anything. Not at all. But it kept Trump out of office for four years. Unfortunately, I think these people will have their way in 2024, with the lovely center-right establishment Democrat losing the election. God knows who that will give the White House to, but it's certain to be worse. The only thing I’m taking solace in right now is that things would be far, far worse with Trump in charge.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:49
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