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SNiPER_Magnum posted:I just got an offer where the base is not where I had hoped. It comes with a profit sharing bonus, I currently get no bonus. It also comes with less than half the PTO I currently get. How do I figure out how to weigh these things better than wild rear end guess and gut feel? IMO unless you're brink-of-homelessness desperate this is one of those situations where negotiating is pointless and the best play is "I was very interested in the position but we clearly have drastically different valuations, lots of luck filling the position" and move on with no further wasted time. You can ask for the moon but they ain't going to give it. That company sucks.  That's based on the information you gave, maybe the bennies are really amazing I dunno. But lousy salary, lousy PTO and dangling bonuses you almost certainly will never actually get, yikes the flags are so red I'm blinded. e: vvv TMA, I laughed when I saw your name because I'm in the middle of reading your awesome old Angband LP. Are you still making a game? Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 05:23
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I would treat profit sharing as like shares in a startup -- you can't count on it for anything necessarily. You can (and should, if you're going to pursue this), ask for data on how much the profit share has been worth in the past few years, which would give you some idea of how likely it is to be worth real money, but there's no guarantee. Bad PTO is a red flag IMO. It signals to me that the employer doesn't understand that rested employees are productive employees, and that they care more about butts in seats than about getting things done. Not that this is a particularly uncommon state of affairs, of course. Definitely push back on this. That said, if the base rate is bad, the PTO is bad, and the bonus is unreliable/undesirable...why are you interested in this job, exactly?
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Nov 16, 2021 05:24
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I just got a verbal offer back after my counter, they went up 8% instead of the 10% on base comp I was asking for but I overshot and the 8% was what I was going for anyway. The bonus, RSUs and signing bonus all stayed the same but I'm fine with that. Very nice improvement on an already decent offer. I definitely would have just taken the first offer before reading this thread but the "never don't negotiate" thing meant hey just go for it. Thanks thread! It's funny because so often when I told someone I was countering they were "why??" and I said "well why not, now's the time?" and they said "but what if they pull the offer?" and I said "then the place sucks to work for and gently caress em!" This was about 5 different people. My dad told me I needed to have a bullet point presentation on why I needed the 10% raise in base salary and I said "nah, I don't", lol.
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Nov 16, 2021 06:08
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Congrats!
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Nov 16, 2021 06:10
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Eric the Mauve posted:IMO unless you're brink-of-homelessness desperate this is one of those situations where negotiating is pointless and the best play is "I was very interested in the position but we clearly have drastically different valuations, lots of luck filling the position" and move on with no further wasted time. You can ask for the moon but they ain't going to give it. That company sucks. I think I'm painting the wrong picture. The offer at New Company is more than I make now at Old Company and more than I'd make after an internal move. More than I'd make after an internal move and figuring bonus+PTO? Dunno. I guess I'm already telling myself PTO is worth a lot to me and bonus is not. Benefits of New Company: -Will be working on cool new stuff -Work/life balance seems better -Location means I could easily get back into a hobby I miss -I can probably go back to Old Company later, I know many who have It's not really wasting my time either. I'm WFH for now and I've got some of that PTO left due to COVID.
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Nov 16, 2021 06:44
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HR interview today, 4 interviews planned for Friday, 2 more on Monday. I wonder if I'll hit my PB of 11. e: had a bit of hard sell from the HR person trying to get my current salary, and that they will need my expectation to make an offer. I said I am not allowed contractually to share my compensation, and am sure they will make a good offer consistent with their position as a market leader blah. She came back with the usual line about needing to make sure I was within the salary bands. I didn't say anything, will just ask what the salary band is next time if they push it. So the ball is in their court. They will cover my RSUs that vest within 6 months and will cover my bonus, but she wants to know what bonus %age I get, which would obviously reveal my base salary. I will work out a way of redacting my last bonus statement, or maybe will just say a number. She seemed a bit surprised that I didn't just roll over and give up the details, which I guess is the norm in the UK. I feel in a strong position as I have a great alternative of being promoted where I am currently so will see what they come up with. knox_harrington fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 12:46
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SNiPER_Magnum posted:I think I'm painting the wrong picture. you painted a super weird picture and this doesn't match what you said before - am I correct that you are getting paid more in base salary than you currently make, and more than you would make after an internal move? why is this so far below your expectations, then? better work/life balance can definitely make up for some PTO loss, depends on how you balance that in your mind. you may want to probe on PTO as what one company considers PTO may not be what another does - for instance, we also have a sick time bucket and fixed holidays, so while true "vacation" use-it-whenever-you-want type time is 15 days/year, total time off is somewhere between 32-42 days a year depending on how much sick time you use.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:32
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Could use some advice Boss found out I'm applying for other work, and I found out from the Sales Manager at work that he's going to sit down and discuss pay. The issue is that jobs I'm applying for are basically a 55-75% increase on my pay, primarily because I'm not being paid enough in my current position. I'm slowly starting to get callbacks from applications, so I know I'm worth at least the amount I'm going to be asking for. My question is how to I respectfully broach the "Hi I'd like a $25-35k pay rise?" with the boss when we sit down? I am applying for jobs around the 70-80k AUD mark. For reference I am Accounts Receivable and have been filling the roll of Administration Officer for the company, and am expected aid in Sales at the same time. My workload has been gradually increasing, and it's becoming untenable - hence why I am applying elsewhere. Infinitum fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 13:47
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Just tell your boss that $X is the market rate for your skills. But if the workload is becoming unmanageable now then it almost certainly won't get better if they give you a raise. If you and your boss have a good relationship then maybe you can work out an agreement about WLB but if not then just take whatever raise they give you & continue looking.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:55
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Infinitum posted:Could use some advice Even if you manage to finagle market rate out of your current job, they'll punish you for it by never giving you a raise again. They've already demonstrated that they're one of those companies that overworks and underpays. Believe them when they show you who they are.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:14
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air- posted:Small org, finance/accounting software (not quite fintech). The range sounded decent until I saw the full offer and benefits package which made the whole thing kinda ehhh - no equity, employer doesn't cover 100% of insurance premiums, and their yearly pto accrual ends up with fewer days off per year vs where I currently work Another update, so the original offer expired on Friday and like I posted before, I figured this company rescinded the offer since the recruiter told me in these exact words "sorry we are at the top of our range and can't meet your counter, we will have to go with another candidate" Yesterday I get a voicemail from the recruiter asking to reconsider because the org is a "great family business" etc etc, which was also why they can't compete on the salary range and then lmao the best part - him mentioning if he was in my shoes interviewing for opportunities with a stronger comp/benefits packaged, he said he'd go for it too, man what a cringe voicemail that reeked of a gaslit desperate vibe  I saw another goon brought up the family business thing and gotta note were exactly right, the top management/exec leadership is all family soooo  
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Nov 16, 2021 14:26
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you painted a super weird picture and this doesn't match what you said before - am I correct that you are getting paid more in base salary than you currently make, and more than you would make after an internal move? why is this so far below your expectations, then? Yeah I don't even know what to say now, except this: you can't really know what work/life balance is like until you start working there, unless you have sources you trust on the inside. All you have to go on is descriptions given by people who are incentivized to exaggerate or lie. Whereas PTO is a hard fact. Unless there's something else about it OP didn't share, a stingy PTO policy is a gigantic red flag for me. Anyway, OP's next play is textbook, ask for what he wants plus 15%--but based on his two posts it sounds to me like the salary on offer might be already in the fair market range, even if the rest of the package sucks.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:27
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the other thing you could do is ask for more PTO, that's always possible
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Nov 16, 2021 14:46
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air- posted:Another update, so the original offer expired on Friday and like I posted before, I figured this company rescinded the offer since the recruiter told me in these exact words "sorry we are at the top of our range and can't meet your counter, we will have to go with another candidate" "What do you mean, he didn't take the job? A firm handshake and our family values should be enough for anybody. No one wants to do an honest days work anymore. Call him back, I am not taking no for an answer!" Poor recruiter. Mario-sized bullet dodged.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:11
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air- posted:Another update, so the original offer expired on Friday and like I posted before, I figured this company rescinded the offer since the recruiter told me in these exact words "sorry we are at the top of our range and can't meet your counter, we will have to go with another candidate" Good job ducking under that banzai bill
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Nov 16, 2021 16:08
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Lockback posted:"What do you mean, he didn't take the job? A firm handshake and our family values should be enough for anybody. No one wants to do an honest days work anymore. Call him back, I am not taking no for an answer!" Poor recruiter. Mario-sized bullet dodged. lol this characterization keeps being proven correct, that sounds like exactly what happened... Inner Light fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 16:19
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air- posted:I saw another goon brought up the family business thing and gotta note were exactly right, the top management/exec leadership is all family soooo That always comes to mind when I hear someone describe their workplace as "we're all one big family" or (worse) family-owned.
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Nov 16, 2021 17:04
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air- posted:Another update, so the original offer expired on Friday and like I posted before, I figured this company rescinded the offer since the recruiter told me in these exact words "sorry we are at the top of our range and can't meet your counter, we will have to go with another candidate" I had a job offer like this. They were offering a lower base than I was already earning and no bonus, plus permanent crunch time. I politely declined. The recruiter told me that this is a poor startup that simply can't afford to pay any more or hire enough people to do the work they need to survive, while the CEO also called me and boasted about how great the business is doing and how many ex-FAANG developers they had that I could learn from. Years later they tried to reach out to me again and lol
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Nov 16, 2021 17:19
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Sorry I'm being super vague and weird. I'm mostly trying to figure out what my number is for walking away. My BATNA is just walking, which I'm not afraid to do. This would be the first time I'd be walking from an offer rather than walking during the interview process. I think I've already tuned myself up to walking, which gave my post that tone. The offer came with lower base and higher bonus than I was expecting. I'm not used to dealing with a bonus at all. I've read before that when negotiating, count your salary + bonus at 100%, and the offer at only salary and bonus at 0%. Seems unreasonable to me. Also does not seem to come from this thread because it goes against Never Say a Number. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you painted a super weird picture and this doesn't match what you said before - am I correct that you are getting paid more in base salary than you currently make, and more than you would make after an internal move? why is this so far below your expectations, then? Correct, base is more than I'd make after an internal move laterally. This job comes with a title change which I don't put much weight on (Engineer vs Senior Engineer). Based on what I've heard from other interviews, I feel I'm underpaid and the offer isn't quite up to market or at the low end. I currently have 34 days PTO, 7 holidays, and no sick leave. Offer is 15 days PTO, 10 holidays, and apparently no sick leave. They sent the PTO schedule, they already bumped it a week. This is where I don't think it meets my expectations. Could I live with less PTO? Maybe. Do I think the offer adequately compensates for it? No. Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah I don't even know what to say now, except this: you can't really know what work/life balance is like until you start working there, unless you have sources you trust on the inside. All you have to go on is descriptions given by people who are incentivized to exaggerate or lie. Whereas PTO is a hard fact. Unless there's something else about it OP didn't share, a stingy PTO policy is a gigantic red flag for me. Well my next move really is to figure out what want+15% is.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:33
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the thread advice isn't never say a number EVER, it's never lead with a number before the other side has given a number, which you have already received from them. you can say whatever number you want. i suggest you post the salary and bonus targets of your current and offer. if you are really weird about posting actual numbers like some of the doctors on this dead forum, you can do it as indexed to current salary. ultimately it's up to you how you value different pieces but it seems to me like you're valuing that extra PTO really highly compared to what you posted was good about the new joint.
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Nov 16, 2021 22:50
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Ensign Expendable posted:the CEO also called me and boasted about how great the business is doing and how many ex-FAANG developers they had that I could learn from. I print these emails, frame them in solid wood and hang them on my wall
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Nov 16, 2021 23:30
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I didn't want to post actual numbers. Comparing this to an internal move I just turned down, offer is base+10% and up to 15% bonus.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the thread advice isn't never say a number EVER, it's never lead with a number before the other side has given a number, which you have already received from them. you can say whatever number you want.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:49
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SNiPER_Magnum posted:I didn't want to post actual numbers. Comparing this to an internal move I just turned down, offer is base+10% and up to 15% bonus. And you don't get a bonus at all right now, right? Or in this new role? I think it's somewhat of a mistake to consider bonus 0, but you definitely shouldn't think of it as 100%. So let's call it a 15% pay bump, which is about what I'd consider bare minimum to move. The pto loss is significant. If I were you I'd ask for a bigger chunk of pto or a fairly significant pay bump. By the numbers a week of pto is worth 2% of your salary but I think most people value it more than that. If your losing 3 weeks I'd easily say that's worth 10% right there, maybe more. Kinda kills the pay raise. Of course, how this stuff and other considerations are valued is your judgement call. But I think your view that this is not a good offer is correct.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:49
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10% is nothing for 20 days of pto, bonus is correctly not highly valued here Figure out what those 20 days are worth to you and ask for that. Or just walk away because this isn’t the right fit for you. I wouldn’t take 3 weeks of vacay either.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:51
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On paper, 16-19 days off (whether you count the 3 holidays with it) is like 6-7% of the work year, so that eats up that 10% pretty fast. e.g. if you currently worked as if you had 15 days of PTO and got paid out for those extra PTO days not taken, your “base” would be about 6-7% higher.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:00
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yeah i agree with the incoming offer being too low given the numbers, it's probably OK provided you believe in the QoL stuff and are really in to the new interesting projects, but you don't seem to really care about/value that so I agree you need to figure out what you would need to get paid to give up that PTO
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Nov 17, 2021 00:07
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The new interesting projects are why I'm even considering this. I guess I'll shoot for the moon and see what I can get. Thanks everyone, this has been incredibly helpful.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:16
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SNiPER_Magnum posted:The new interesting projects are why I'm even considering this. I guess I'll shoot for the moon and see what I can get. If you're ambivalent at base+10 and don't terribly care about not getting it, you can try countering at base+50-75. Probably won't get all the way there, but if you're their first pick they might reach as far as they can.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:52
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Got a call back this evening about a job offer incoming. External recruiter tried the tell me your current salary about a dozen different ways and then tried to anchor me at $75k. Market is $100 and I know that so we eventually danced around to that number. Given my situation, market is fine with me. After all this, she told me that the client was willing to pay market. Just lead with that. Don't try to anchor me at market -25%. Hopefully the offer is incoming tomorrow. But, gently caress. If I was a pushover I could be making $25k less per year for the foreseeable future. Note: numbers aren't real, but the ratios are.
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Nov 17, 2021 01:28
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Dik Hz posted:
For a minute I was like "poo poo dude let's talk"
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Nov 17, 2021 01:40
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Lockback posted:For a minute I was like "poo poo dude let's talk"
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Nov 17, 2021 02:25
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a dingus posted:Just tell your boss that $X is the market rate for your skills. But if the workload is becoming unmanageable now then it almost certainly won't get better if they give you a raise. If you and your boss have a good relationship then maybe you can work out an agreement about WLB but if not then just take whatever raise they give you & continue looking. I'd just like to say thank you for this advice. Just had the meeting with the boss and it was good to walk in knowing how to approach it. I mentioned what my market rate was for my skillset, told him I had been applying 5k higher, if they wanted to retain me it needed to at least meet that expectation. It's going to be a pay increase either way, which is helpful while I'm still looking, but if I get what I asked for it's at least a 55% increase over my current pay packet.
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Nov 17, 2021 02:28
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Dik Hz posted:Got a call back this evening about a job offer incoming. External recruiter tried the tell me your current salary about a dozen different ways and then tried to anchor me at $75k. Market is $100 and I know that so we eventually danced around to that number. Given my situation, market is fine with me. After all this, she told me that the client was willing to pay market. Just lead with that. Don't try to anchor me at market -25%. Hopefully the offer is incoming tomorrow. But, gently caress. If I was a pushover I could be making $25k less per year for the foreseeable future. I politely told them it was their turn to throw out a number. I'm beginning to understand why this job is still open. Amongst other things, I told the recruiter that I wasn't keen on negotiating against myself. She then told me that they want to make me an offer; they just need me to name another number. I told her that I would love to entertain an offer if they decided to extend one. Ugh. I really need out of my current job but also gently caress you pay me.
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Nov 17, 2021 20:28
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Dik Hz posted:Welp. Client isn't willing to pay market and told the recruiting firm to tell the recruiter to tell me to name another lower number after sharing their admittedly generous benefits package and indicating they were flexible on vacation. Sounds like the new number is $110k
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Nov 17, 2021 20:38
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Democratic Pirate posted:Sounds like the new number is $110k
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Nov 17, 2021 20:39
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Arquinsiel posted:I was just gonna post "Name a higher number" too. Literally go Darth Vader v. Lando Calrissian on them.
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Nov 17, 2021 20:59
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Democratic Pirate posted:Sounds like the new number is $110k Unfortunately I'm currently in an untenable situation (my role was made redundant by virtue of being acquired by a bigger company this year and my boss demoted me and posted an org chart without my team on it) so I'm probably going to take whatever. The number is going to determine whether or not I stop job hunting after taking it, but obviously I can't say that.
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Nov 17, 2021 21:04
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Previous offer minus $1.00 Seriously, I'd probably reply with something like "When you are ready and prepared to make an offer for this role please let me know. I am happy to talk further".
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Nov 17, 2021 21:09
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Yeah I don't know exactly how much your current job sucks but if they are really going to hold the line with that kind of aggressively gently caress-you-you-need-us-more-than-we-need-you posture I would give it a hard pass if at all humanly possible. Office Spacing your way to a severance at your current job is a viable option if it comes to that. e: wait, you were demoted? Was your pay decreased? I usually advocate raising holy hell and forcing them to fire you before accepting a demotion, it's really terrible for your resume. So yeah if they're offering you something parallel to your previous/highest role then I guess it's better long term to take it and keep job hunting. You get to under-one-year job-hop maybe once a decade or so, this might as well be it for you. e2: Demoting managers that you want to see leave is a really weird move, damaging their resumes is not a good way to get them gone ASAP. Much more standard if you're really bent on avoiding paying severance to your recently acquired company's surplus managers is to leave them in the same nominal role but take away their reports and stop giving them anything to do (notwithstanding it's cheaper and easier in the long run to just pay severance and fire them). Demoting them is bizarrely and self defeatingly aggressive. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 21:38
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