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Lumbermouth posted:Is that the “you might as well eat your gun, nothing you do in this game will matter” preamble? No I think it's some stuff to do with the Chauchua, which I agree is hella racist but it's also like a page, not really opening fiction.
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Nov 14, 2021 06:35
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It's been years since I opened the Handler's Guide for anything except rules reference, monsters, spells, etc. I had to go back and look at the opening fiction because I couldn't remember, and it seems pretty benign. It's a riff on one of the ways the characters can die in Future Perfect. The description of the moon is taken right out of the module text. For my money, the best Delta Green short stories are Witch Hunt, Coming Home and Contingencies from Tales From Failed Anatomies, or Ganzfeld Gate, A Question of Memory, Boxes Inside Boxes and The Lucky Ones from Extraordinary Renditions. Through a Glass Darkly is fun, but not worth it unless you're interested in the metaplot between editions of the game.
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Nov 14, 2021 06:50
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Kavak posted:No I think it's some stuff to do with the Chauchua, which I agree is hella racist but it's also like a page, not really opening fiction. At one page total it’s the length of all the chapter-openers and it’s the first one. Close enough to opening for me!
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Nov 14, 2021 07:34
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What page is it on? I'm ctrl-fing for it and it's not showing up.
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Nov 14, 2021 07:39
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On the flyleaf facing the the title page, so page zero I guess? It follows up the Chauchua conspiracy wall spread on the endsheet inside the front cover.   They probably didn’t include the endsheet illustrations in the digital book pdf, which is good I guess.
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Nov 14, 2021 08:04
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Yeah it isn't in the PDF version. It goes cover, back cover, credits page, two pages of TOC, an intro image and then the intro fiction. Tcho Tcho being evil in the new Delta Green is a double fakeout. In Reverberations (the only scenario where they appear) you get the usual blood libel about how anthropologists hate them and other ethnicities fear them. And if the players (who are suggested to start as mundane DEA Agents with no knowledge of the supernatural) are metagaming and already "know" that Tcho Tchos are evil, they can pick a fight and learn nothing. Or they can just talk to them like normal people, and they happily teach the players a magic spell for free that kills the monster at the end of the module.
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Nov 14, 2021 09:27
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Yeah I'm uh going to pass on that particular scenario but I guess they tried?
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Nov 14, 2021 11:17
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What are the upcoming delta green releases? I think I've lost track since impossible landscapes.
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Nov 14, 2021 12:36
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Proud Rat Mom posted:What are the upcoming delta green releases? I think I've lost track since impossible landscapes. There might be further developments posted behind all the various Patreon paywalls the developers have set up. I don't have access to those.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:51
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Siivola posted:Yeah I'm uh going to pass on that particular scenario but I guess they tried? The problem there is that Call of Cthulhu plays looser with "canon" than Delta Green does, because CoC basically provides the toolkit of Mythos horrors and lets you go to town and decide how they apply in your campaign, whilst Delta Green is specifically a sequel to the original 1990s Delta Green sourcebooks (which already had some Tcho-Tcho content) and is much more closely tied to a canonical timeline and series of events. I don't think this is a reason not to rethink and retcon, but it is a thing which makes it harder to do that.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:09
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Warthur posted:The problem there is that Call of Cthulhu plays looser with "canon" than Delta Green does, because CoC basically provides the toolkit of Mythos horrors and lets you go to town and decide how they apply in your campaign, whilst Delta Green is specifically a sequel to the original 1990s Delta Green sourcebooks (which already had some Tcho-Tcho content) and is much more closely tied to a canonical timeline and series of events. I don't think this is a reason not to rethink and retcon, but it is a thing which makes it harder to do that. The odd thing is that the Handler's Guide presents some alternative ideas for how the Deep Ones could work, with the Innsmouth Taint as an infection rather than a hereditary thing, so they're not unaware of the background and implications of certain setting elements. They could have made the Tcho-Tcho a dead and gone cult, like the Karotechia.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:28
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mellonbread posted:The two scenarios we were supposed to have in our immediate future are ICONOCLASTS and a module for Labyrinth called The Language of the Stars. Both are technically late if you go by the timeline posted at the beginning of the year, and the latter appears to just have been folded back into the module pack for Labyrinth (Final Passages) rather than dropped as a standalone. There's probably a not-insignificant amount of capacities behind working on the huge amount of stuff from the recent Kickstarter as well.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:56
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I stand by what I said about that opening flyer being about what to expect from nu!DG at this rate.
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Nov 16, 2021 10:00
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Thanks for your contribution I guess.
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Nov 16, 2021 10:14
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:I stand by what I said about that opening flyer being about what to expect from nu!DG at this rate. Could you expand upon this thing that you said? Because it's vague as all hell and I just assume there's some kind of snarky standoffishness about it. Genuinely curious because I never got into Delta Green until "nu!DG" happened and so I have no idea what something like this even means.
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Nov 16, 2021 11:10
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What I mean is all the blood libel tropes for the tcho-tcho are par for the course of what we've seen in the new edition and they have zero intention of easing up on how racist those are, except for the one adventure mentioned above that punishes you for engaging the game on its own terms (which is another thing nu!DG really likes to do). The game has an absolutely rancid ideology, even by the standards of modern Cthulhu Mythos games, and ppl call me crazy when I dismiss it.
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Nov 16, 2021 12:31
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Nov 16, 2021 12:52
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It’d be easier to engage with you if you presented some kind of, I dunno, point, instead of just posting "well what did you expect" over and over.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:24
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:The game has an absolutely rancid ideology, even by the standards of modern Cthulhu Mythos games, and ppl call me crazy when I dismiss it. I don't really see this at all and I'm honestly not sure if we're even reading the same game. If anything, Dennis Detwiller and Shane Ivey belong to that part of the terminally-online left that is just a bit too uncomfortably woke, so I'm not really sure what kind of phantoms you're seeing. You're making all of these claims but not really saying anything about why you have them. You just kinda seem to have feelings about Delta Green that are either not based in anything, or are based in some personal bugbear that you haven't really publicly defined. Either way, you do you, friend.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:26
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:What I mean is all the blood libel tropes for the tcho-tcho are par for the course of what we've seen in the new edition and they have zero intention of easing up on how racist those are, except for the one adventure mentioned above that punishes you for engaging the game on its own terms (which is another thing nu!DG really likes to do). The game has an absolutely rancid ideology, even by the standards of modern Cthulhu Mythos games, and ppl call me crazy when I dismiss it. so hang on, you're saying "the game says racist things" then "the game shows you racism is bad"
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Nov 16, 2021 14:40
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Drone posted:I don't really see this at all and I'm honestly not sure if we're even reading the same game. If anything, Dennis Detwiller and Shane Ivey belong to that part of the terminally-online left that is just a bit too uncomfortably woke, so I'm not really sure what kind of phantoms you're seeing. And to be even fairer, TK has made some specific criticisms: the Tcho-Tcho stuff, the way a scenario punishes you for taking the game on its own terms. (Even if the intended reading there is "Racism is bad"... that still doesn't change the fact that the Tcho-Tcho stuff is largely unreconstructed Derlethian bigotry, with some new flavours of bigotry like "anti-racism advocacy organisations are a front for something horrible".) There's at least one other scenario (if I recall rightly it's one of the Afghanistan ones they did) where "purge the village, they are all corrupt" seems to be, if not the intended reading, at least a reading which is supported by the text. I like Delta Green but I would like it more if they showed the same level of due diligence on avoiding indulgence of Lovecraftian racism that Chaosium are. And, like, that's not much but they did stuff like getting Chris Spivey onboard to do the Harlem Unbound sourcebook and a sidebar about racism in the starter set, and even before that they made sure to expand on the Harlem section of Masks of Nyarlathotep so there's actual sympathetic human beings living in Harlem too rather than just cultists. Warthur fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 14:41
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I'm sympathetic to the difficulty of updating Delta Green for an age where we're living through a literal man-made apocalypse without any snarks or grumpkins sleeping under the sea to blame for it. I think they did a reasonably good job, though admittedly like TK I also had to do some modification to how the Tcho-Tcho were presented (which is maybe what 1-2%, tops, of the word count in the GM book?). Of course the tone is gonna be bleak. I remember the old "official DG agent shooting stances" meme from the 90's game. I don't know what "punishes you for engaging with it on its own terms" means. Every scenario pushes paranoia and supernatural angles that can mess with you and feel like "gotchas." The core book of the original game had a scenario where the agents were turbofucked if they so much as had a glass of water at a restaurant on ostensibly a supernaturally infected missing person case. The only real "ideology" I detect in it is bland west wing natsec center-right liberalism (the "default" media-permissible political ideology in the US) married to grim apocalyptic cosmic horror.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:43
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Owlbear Camus posted:I don't know what "punishes you for engaging with it on its own terms" means. Every scenario pushes paranoia and supernatural angles that can mess with you and feel like "gotchas." The core book of the original game had a scenario where the agents were turbofucked if they so much as had a glass of water at a restaurant on ostensibly a supernaturally infected missing person case.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:46
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Ah yeah. The Tcho-Tcho stuff is really hard to defend, and I'm not gonna. I mentioned a few pages ago , I am currently running the Tcho-Tcho themed module out of the most recent Unspeakable Oath. My players are all blanco ninios but I still want to approach it with a little caution. They did note that I was all too happy to do an accent for the French Canadian guy, but didn't gently caress with trying to Mickey Rooney it up for any of the AAPI/Tcho Tcho characters. As I mentioned, I was looking for an angle to make it a little less fraught and finding a few threads and ignoring the "don't be a snowflake" and "just don't use them" advice found one to expand upon that really worked for me: The Aklo language as a mimetic virus. It's often fascinated me how language shapes thinking. It's not for no reason that political subcultures and cults have their own argot. "Proletariat," "property defender," "RINO," "Suppressive Person" etc etc. You instantly know someone who says "sex worker" has a very different mental model of their fellow human beings, power dynamics, consent, and social relationships than someone who casually says "hooker." Having the language to describe things, and describe them with a specific nuance is POWERFUL. It shapes not just how we communicate externally but how we process the world internally. So to me SE Asia just happened to be the spot where someone first learned this truly alien language through the first contact with it, and spread it around like a Pontypool-style language virus. The language warped entire communities around it. It's a geographical accident that Aklo twisted minds there instead of ancient Thebes or in the Iroquois nations or the Russian Steppes. The amount of Aklo you know tends to proportionally not only warp your worldview, but also grant greater power over others as one tends to learn it in order to acquire ritual power over life and death and big dumb burrowing monster worms. This not only gives at least a little distance from the whole skull caliper race science angle, but adds some tension to the game. Maybe one of the Agents has to learn a ritual only transcribed in this malign language. But in so doing they themselves become a little Tcho-Tcho. They start to process work and personal relationships as brutally heirarchal and exploitative. They become nakedly ambitious or utterly terrified of the people they report to in the mundane office component of their jobs, seeing them as either ineffectual for not using their position to solidify their power and exploit supplicants, or viewing every threat of an OPR review or a FLIPL as a portent of their director/sergeant major planning to eat their heart. Also I ditched the Council on Tcho Tcho Relations or whatever it's called. "What if racism is right this ONE TIME but the drat WOKES are keeping us from doing the needful purging" is a little to cute for it's own good in the current climate. Plus that kind of subtle glib PR just seems out of character for them: once you're Tcho-Tcho enough you don't really bother trying to grift the outsiders, you just enslave and eat them. Warthur posted:I think TK's referring to the way Reverberations is set up such that if you are racist about the Tcho-Tcho it screws you, when all the other setting stuff makes it clear - if you run it as written - that Tcho-Tcho are inherently corrupt and should at the very least be treated with suspicion - which means that if you run Reverberations with PCs who have run into other Tcho-Tcho stuff run as written they're likely to get screwed. Yeah that's my reading comprehension bust, I took it as a critique of the whole line. I'm absolutely not going to cape for the Tcho-Tcho content. To whatever degree DG is good it's in spite of it. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 14:53
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The one time I ran Reverberations, the Agents completely ignored the Tcho-Tcho hook in favor of splitting up into multiple simultaneous clown shows, in which: one group tried and failed to bribe children (they literally walked up to some kids playing on the street and said "hey, here's $20, can you tell us where the drug dealers are?" the children were, shall we say, not receptive) while the other group walked into a police station to interrogate a witness, examined some evidence in lockup, panicked when asked to sign for it, and attempted to steal the box of evidence and run out of the police station. unsuccessfully.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:26
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Warthur posted:There's at least one other scenario (if I recall rightly it's one of the Afghanistan ones they did) where "purge the village, they are all corrupt" seems to be, if not the intended reading, at least a reading which is supported by the text. I've not read the scenario but I'm willing to say it's a valid reading. I don't like how Delta Green the org is written as believing the Unnatural is basically the Warcraft Purple Stuff and any exposure to it will lead to apocalypse, because I can only purge Stratholme so many times before it gets boring. Siivola fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 15:37
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I'm not sure if we're supposed to read the fish man blood quanta purge as a pragmatic good instead of a drastic overstep, though. I mean canonically the officially sanctioned DG is pretty compromised, and the implied arc of a long enough running campaign that delved into the background would have the PCs asking questions about March Technologies and poo poo that have them turning against their masters. As a broad criticism I'd say there are certainly sensitivity issues. I would never run Lover in the Ice or Khali Ghata. I am never going to use all but heavily veiled and implied at a football field's length sexual violence in my game. I think in part that's just a pitfall of the horror genre: It has to transgress, and transgression is going to by its nature alienate people depending on what boundary isn't respected. You can round it off a little bit, but it still has to have corners or it just stops being horror. Perfectly round and safe becomes like Chill, just a sort of Scoobie Doo adventure team with spooky trappings.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:56
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Owlbear Camus posted:I'm not sure if we're supposed to read the fish man blood quanta purge as a pragmatic good instead of a drastic overstep, though.  " and the Handler is explicitly told to not delve into the background to keep the conspiracy mysterious. The implied campaign is about finding out if there's anything the PCs wouldn't do to prevent the apocalypse, like some kind of less nuanced rehash of 24, and I absolutely can not be bothered.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:17
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The Director of the Program is all-but explicitly stated to be a detestable and utterly broken human being who's become obsessed with eradicating Deep Ones. And elsewhere in the Handler's Guide, it's explicitly stated that SOMERSAULT targets individuals as young as six years old. The players aren't meant to cheer this on—the game wants you to feed these facts to them over time, so they can come to understand that the Program and their "partners" at March Technologies is just as warped and twisted as MAJESTIC that came before it. e: Siivola posted:Yeah, that's the implied arc. The actual text just goes "DG has done and continues to do bad poo poo imo it's less about "What wouldn't the players do to prevent apocalypse," but instead recognizing that the organization they're working for is irrevocably hosed, and are certain operations really preventing the apocalypse, or are they satisfying an old man's delusions? It's not made explicit in the Handler's Guide, but there's plenty of material in there to run a game where the Program/March Technologies is the ultimate enemy that must be destroyed or overthrown. (And in fact there was supposed to be a whole supplement about March and all the hosed-up poo poo they were getting up to, not sure what ever happened to that) double edit: There's even a line in the Handler's Guide where it explicitly states that the Program's Director of Security has determined that, at some point, the Director has to die—"For the good of the program. For the good of the world." Which could certainly make for a hell of a campaign! Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 16:19
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My main complaints about Delta Green is that the system is mechanically very sound and it makes my brain happy to gently caress around with it, and I like the idea of the Agents being slowly abraded by rubbing against the grain until they're raw and rattled and openly questioning if things were worth it. But I'm at the creative point in my life where Lovecraft poo poo just plain sucks a ton of rear end and is the boring MCU of nerds completing a puzzle out of disparate parts found at multiple estate sales, and also the devs want "Nothing Matters, This Is Bleak Horror, Cruelty, Kindness, Torture, Nuture, It's Cosmic Existentialist Horror Babey!" to be the core theme and motivator of the game. Detwiller had a whole thread on Twitter that I can't find right now (because that guy tweets like someone's gonna take it away from him) that amounted to just openly saying that's the point, that the government is hideously corrupt and unethical and crashing ships against the side of a mountain moving ever closer and sure you can play things a lot lighter and softer because he fundamentally can't police what you do with the work when you have it, but that's the pure authorial intent. And then you combine it with the Lovecraft poo poo which is just generally impersonal in addition to being inexplicable, bad stuff happens and you inspect it and react to the situation, probably with guns, and it sucks that it's married to a substantially better system and doesn't stick the landing because there's the looming specter of "Nothing You Do Matters" that makes it hard to kind of care if you know what's up, y'know? Adventures and mission lines end with characters either dead, apathetic by way of San loss/knowing how the universe really works, broken or on the run. And I don't think future iterations are going to change because, I'll be real: some of the devs of the game are pretty deeply politically poisoned by some measure of despair/apathy for the future as politics keep going the way they're going because they're older folks who have been watching poo poo erode for decades. I know some of them have straight-up left America and they also know a lot about how the geopolitical sausage is made and that's the main motivator for why Nothing You Do Matters is baked so deep into the core design of the game's adventures and stuff. It's hard to make a game about the future when you just don't have hope, and I really hope they're talking to people about it.
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Nov 16, 2021 19:09
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's not made explicit in the Handler's Guide, but there's plenty of material in there to run [. . .] a hell of a campaign! 
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Nov 16, 2021 19:19
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"Nothing Matters, Least of All You" seems like the thesis statement of cosmic horror so I see that as more feature than bug. I tend to be a philisophical absurdist IRL so I tend to answer it by saying: gently caress you I'm making it matter. It matters to the one person out of a thousand you save. It matters to the people who get to savor the 5 minutes you hit snooze on the apocalypse. This is my boulder and I'm rolling it. These are my fellow prisoners and I'm showing them all the kindness I can until the headsman comes. To me the heroic agents being flawed and doomed and in the long view their efforts being futile both mirrors the enormity of reality where on a long enough timeline all is dust, and adds to the tragic romance of performing one's moral duty even in the absense of all hope. e: I'm not saying you gotta agree or even that that's conveyed well in the text. I think one of the little nods towards it is published modules tend to have San regain rewards that scale with how much you mitigated the alien spaghetti monster destruction Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 19:27
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Owlbear Camus posted:As a broad criticism I'd say there are certainly sensitivity issues. I would never run Lover in the Ice or Khali Ghata. I am never going to use all but heavily veiled and implied at a football field's length sexual violence in my game. Since the villains in that one are fairly clearly indicated as having extensive interactions with shoggoths, to the extent of one of them having a half-shoggoth son, I took out the mass rape and made it more a "mass immersion in a pool of shoggoths" deal, the shoggoths want to play with human bodies to better disguise themselves as human and the cult leaders want the shoggoths to help them overcome the limits of the static human body by creating people who've somewhat regained the plasticity of their shoggoth ancestors (remember, At the Mountains of Madness strongly implies that all life on Earth is descended from Shoggoths, so in my personal canon where we see shoggoths as plastic horrors the shoggoths would see us as ossified shoggoths). Overall aesthetic was very much comparable to the "shunting" scene in Society, which still has sexual assault connotations but is at least more veiled and more interestingly depicted than most drab "and then there's a rape dungeon" stuff.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:10
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Owlbear Camus posted:e: I'm not saying you gotta agree or even that that's conveyed well in the text. Okay there's a bit of romance in the part about foiling Nazi plots.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:30
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This is all hilarious to me, as I'm halfway through Reverberations, my first exposure to TchoTchos and I honestly figured they were going to do a 'hahHAH, you thought these guys were bad but actually racism is the true evil!'. Like, Disney's Pocahontas level moral storytelling, but that's fine a twist is a twist. I liked the idea enough of Reverb I submitted a shotgun scenario where an ending is convincing the guardian of a reverb-addicted infant to adopt it into the Tcho Tcho community. Because I was certain that I'd learn that they are actually misunderstood magic users, some good some bad, it's just part of their religion like Peyote. You know, like how literally every other religion on earth has good people and loving bastards who all believe the same religion motivates their actions. Forgot that Lovecraftian fiction considers all members of a race to have genetically determined morality. And every race that is not the default normal (white guy) to be suspect at best if not incorrigibly evil. Anyway the last two pages were quite the rollercoaster. "Oh poo poo! Did I present handing a kid off to cannibal cultists as a good ending!?" "Oh good! I kinda spoilerd myself for the module but it turns out that the blood libel was a red herring and treating them as human is the right move and I was gonna do that anyway" "Oh what? They're still canonically all evil monsters but just in this one particular module are reasonably helpful to outsiders to achieve an aim, instead of like, bloodlust orcs." Anyway, this is why headcanon exists. Maybe they do cannibalism, big loving whoop, the dominant American religion participates in ritualized cannibalism every Sunday. If they actually have access to magical powers that means that eventually one of them will be a right bastard and memories are longer for evil wizardry than simple mind your own business peacefulness. I was worried I'd embarassed myself and two pages later I'm suddenly not worried about being  about 'well ackshually these subhuman mudmonsters would never care for a helpless infant'. That's a way more embarrassing way to present lore.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:32
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The one time I ran Reverberations, the Agents completely ignored the Tcho-Tcho hook in favor of splitting up into multiple simultaneous clown shows, in which:
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Nov 16, 2021 20:40
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I enjoy this semi-recent trend in Mythos fiction - Winter Tide, The Ballad of Black Tom, etc. - where Mythos worshippers/practitioners are marginalized groups trying to survive in the face of the oppressive WASP establishment. I'd like to see a campaign with DG-style characters where they slowly come to realize that they are The Baddies, but it'd be tricky to pull that off. It certainly wouldn't work for all groups: some people just want to
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Nov 16, 2021 20:43
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Anyway if I had to pick one game to buy it'd be CoC 7E just because I enjoy the goofy pulp art way more than DG's creepy mixed media stuff.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:44
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Hostile V posted:Mthe devs want "Nothing Matters, This Is Bleak Horror, Cruelty, Kindness, Torture, Nuture, It's Cosmic Existentialist Horror Babey!" to be the core theme and motivator of the game. Detwiller had a whole thread on Twitter that I can't find right now (because that guy tweets like someone's gonna take it away from him) that amounted to just openly saying that's the point, that the government is hideously corrupt and unethical and crashing ships against the side of a mountain moving ever closer These guys know they're in the business of selling escapist fiction right? I want to live through an unavoidable slow motion apocalypse where all the power centers are actively malign or so incompetent as to make no difference, and in any case unassailably remote and unaccountable, I can just closeread the political news for a week. Reminds me of this bit: https://twitter.com/flglmn/status/1457681059714326528 But yea there's room for that of course, in a bleak setting, but if the devs are starting out from a point where the players have literally no agency to effect even minor changes and win even pyrrhic victories that what the poo poo. Learned Helplessness Simulator. E: I also would 100% be down to kill the head of DG in a module. Mankind can not be free until we strangle the last Handler with the guts of the last Cult Leader. Think I got a scenario seed right there for next year. PipHelix fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 20:49
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PipHelix posted:These guys know they're in the business of selling escapist fiction right? I want to live through an unavoidable slow motion apocalypse where all the power centers are actively malign or so incompetent as to make no difference, and in any case unassailably remote and unaccountable, I can just closeread the political news for a week.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:57
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