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appropriatemetaphor posted:Dwarven Weapon Familiarity (Dwarves don't know their own weapons by default??) Well, sure. Do humans all know how to use human weapons by default? Stuff like "literally every dwarf, no matter how much of an unathletic nerd they are, knows how to use the battleaxe" is one of the sillier of the D&Disms that PF2 is trying to quietly tiptoe away from.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:06
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Roadie posted:Well, sure. Do humans all know how to use human weapons by default? Stuff like "literally every dwarf, no matter how much of an unathletic nerd they are, knows how to use the battleaxe" is one of the sillier of the D&Disms that PF2 is trying to quietly tiptoe away from. why do you dislike that
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Nov 15, 2021 20:09
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Roadie posted:Well, sure. Do humans all know how to use human weapons by default? Stuff like "literally every dwarf, no matter how much of an unathletic nerd they are, knows how to use the battleaxe" is one of the sillier of the D&Disms that PF2 is trying to quietly tiptoe away from. But human fighters know the "human" weapons like swords and axes. Why would a dwarf know how to use a human axe but a dwarf specific one needs a feat? Seems like having human fighters be experts in dwarf weapons but then gotta take a feat for "human weapon specialization"
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Nov 15, 2021 20:24
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appropriatemetaphor posted:What would damage focused mean? My current build I've got a Dwarven War Axe with a Steel Shield, Dwarven Weapon Familiarity (Dwarves don't know their own weapons by default??) and Power Attack feat. Yeah, damage focused just means either 2-handed(probably not reach) or dual wield. You can build a fighter 5 ways more or less: 2Hand, Sword&Board, Free hand, dual wield, or bow. 2hand or dual wield are the most damage focused of those, probably 2hand is the most straightforward. You can customize it quite a bit within those categories, but honestly not a ton from 1-3. Everyone knows the best fighters are sent off to gnomish boarding schools for optimal adopted ancestral weapon knowledge.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:27
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appropriatemetaphor posted:But human fighters know the "human" weapons like swords and axes. Why would a dwarf know how to use a human axe but a dwarf specific one needs a feat? Seems like having human fighters be experts in dwarf weapons but then gotta take a feat for "human weapon specialization" Looking more closely at one of the ancestry feats, it seems like the intent is to either let someone without martial weapon training gain access to some kinds of martial weapons or give martial characters access to uncommon advanced weapons. https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=14 Advanced weapons tend to be pretty powerful overall so gating them behind a feat makes sense, mechanically. This is also a gateway to later racial feats that give you access to critical effects, which many classes do not get natively. Story-wise, it still makes sense. Classes come with a basic set of proficiencies that represent your training. If you’re an elf rogue, you’ve spent your time learning how to pick locks and stab people. You know how to use a shortbow, because those are useful in a down-and-dirty fight like rogues get into, but you never really needed to learn how to use a longbow because you’re never actually shooting things a hundred feet away. However, your parents wanted to make sure you had a proper elf education, so they sent you to elf school where you learned how to shoot a longbow. Similarly, if you’re an elf fighter, you’ve spent a lot of time familiarizing yourself with every weapon you can get your hands on, which gets you proficiency in all martial weapons. The elven curveblade, though, is mostly seen as a dueling weapon, because they’re unwieldy and impractical, so they’re uncommon to see. You think they’re elegant and cool, though, so you spent some time hunting one down and taking lessons from a master.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:58
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So what's the overall verdict on Gunslinger in 2e? It's one of those classes that always looks interesting to me at first, but then the rules are so terrified of guns accidentally being OP that they get nerfed to oblivion and back until they become pointlessly complicated slogs. That said, I checked out the Guns and Gears book, and my gut says that the class really isn't that great. I wanted to dig that Spellshot archetype since I'm a sucker for Outlaw Star and therefore anything that would get my character closer to having a Caster gun of some form, but for the most part, I don't think there was very much in there that made the class seem good to me outside of a couple fun looking Spellshot feats.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:04
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Yeah a dwarven war axe is an advance weapon, so you need special training as a dwarf or through some other means. Because not every nerd dwarf learns to use that axe.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:06
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Guns are pretty poo poo but the gunslinger gets a bunch of mechanics to mitigate their shittiness. The end result is that gunslingers are pretty good, at least on a purely mechanical level. Having fighter's profiency progression goes a really long way
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Nov 15, 2021 21:10
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Guns in 2e are fine - if you're a Gunslinger. Gunslingers are like Rogues and Investigators in that they're based around having one attack and making it count - though instead of precision damage making up the difference like those, guns loving explode people on crits and Gunslingers have Fighter-level accuracy with guns, making crits actually a thing you'll be seeing pretty often. The special reloads are all great and you have enough feats to make ammo not really a hassle at all. Shoot someone's head off and then debuff the guy standing next to him with intimidation. Basically you can't look at either guns or gunslinger in a vacuum because they mesh together in such a way that makes them both actually work. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 21:11
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all dwarves including the nerds shoudl be competent with the dwarven war axe and any system that does not incorporate this is fundamentally flawed
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Nov 15, 2021 21:17
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sugar free jazz posted:all dwarves including the nerds shoudl be competent with the dwarven war axe and any system that does not incorporate this is fundamentally flawed But are all Dwarves competent with beard oil?
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Nov 15, 2021 21:20
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GoGoGadget posted:But are all Dwarves competent with beard oil? are they dwarves if theyre not
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Nov 15, 2021 21:31
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M. Night Skymall posted:Yeah, damage focused just means either 2-handed(probably not reach) or dual wield. You can build a fighter 5 ways more or less: 2Hand, Sword&Board, Free hand, dual wield, or bow. 2hand or dual wield are the most damage focused of those, probably 2hand is the most straightforward. You can customize it quite a bit within those categories, but honestly not a ton from 1-3. Then I guess my question is is it worth it to take Dwarven Weapon Familiarity to get access to the Dwarven War Axe. Which would let me freely use a shield as needed, or do the ONE HAND MUST BE FREE poo poo like trip or shove. Or just take some other ancestry feat and just use a regular two handed weapon. In my head i'm imagining that vs weaker enemies I could get up in their face with a shield and basically take no damage, but then put away shield to trip or shove buffer enemies then switch to two handed grip and POWER ATTACK for the big damages. Only getting up to level 3 so things that are good at low level are preferred.
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Nov 16, 2021 00:02
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Then I guess my question is is it worth it to take Dwarven Weapon Familiarity to get access to the Dwarven War Axe. Which would let me freely use a shield as needed, or do the ONE HAND MUST BE FREE poo poo like trip or shove. Or just take some other ancestry feat and just use a regular two handed weapon. So, really the question is how much do you care about it the Sweep trait. Because other than that, the Dwarven War Axe is mechanically identical to the Bastard Sword. And both are great choices that will let you play the switch hitter you envision. So what you’re paying the feat tax for is a +1 circumstance bonus to hit on your second attack, so long as it is against a different target from your first attack. That’s… not great. Later when you get crit specialization, the axe will let you get a free non-crit hit against a target adjacent to the target you crit. That’s pretty good, but somewhat situational in terms of positioning. At the same time, the bastard sword will let you leave your targets flat footed on a crit. That owns, basically every time. Tl;dr, stop getting hung up on the war axe, just use a bastard sword.
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Nov 16, 2021 00:24
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dwarven war axes are however substantially cooler
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Nov 16, 2021 00:49
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Sweep is a perfectly good trait. Circumstance is good, on the second hit means it stacks with Aid on the first, and it combos with stuff like Swipe to get the bonus on both hits at zero MAP.
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Nov 16, 2021 03:05
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Sweep is fine but it's not really worth a feat IMO (especially since dwarves have some really good ancestry feats)
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Nov 16, 2021 03:19
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yeah what’s a good level 1 ancestry feat? Going to go with a bastard sword, didn’t know it was the same as the fancy axe (basically) but sans sweep. was looking at the one that gets rid of the armor movement penalty?
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Nov 16, 2021 03:47
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appropriatemetaphor posted:yeah what’s a good level 1 ancestry feat? Going to go with a bastard sword, didn’t know it was the same as the fancy axe (basically) but sans sweep. If you're wearing medium or heavy armor that feat (Unburdened Iron) is the one you want to get. Rock Runner is also pretty good.
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Nov 16, 2021 03:53
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How can I reliably get combat advantage as a burly ruffian rogue using a spear? Only one other melee person in the party so flanking is a little irritating to set up
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Nov 16, 2021 03:56
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Cyouni posted:Sweep is a perfectly good trait. Circumstance is good, on the second hit means it stacks with Aid on the first, and it combos with stuff like Swipe to get the bonus on both hits at zero MAP. It’s a fine trait but it isn’t a worth a whole-rear end feat trait. For OP’s stated goals it is not a good trade and a bastard sword is a better choice.
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Nov 16, 2021 03:59
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Kitfox88 posted:How can I reliably get combat advantage as a burly ruffian rogue using a spear? Only one other melee person in the party so flanking is a little irritating to set up Feint.
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Nov 16, 2021 04:00
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Piell posted:If you're wearing medium or heavy armor that feat (Unburdened Iron) is the one you want to get. Rock Runner is also pretty good. Shameful medium armor for now, so i'll go with Unburdened Iron. What are people's thoughts on Sudden Charge vs Power Attack? I guess Sudden Charge is 3 actions for 2 points, but seems like if you don't move twice then it's just the same as moving once and attacking?
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Nov 16, 2021 04:50
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Shameful medium armor for now, so i'll go with Unburdened Iron. Power attack is pretty bad mechanically. Sudden charge, on the other hand, is pretty good. There are a lot of fights that start out between 2 and 3 movements away that will let you save an action.
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Nov 16, 2021 05:01
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Piell posted:Power attack is pretty bad mechanically. Sudden charge, on the other hand, is pretty good. There are a lot of fights that start out between 2 and 3 movements away that will let you save an action. Is having an extra damage die just not that good? Seems like you could power attack every turn almost, but charge you'd just charge once at the start? I suppose this is a "what am i doing with my actions as a fighter" question
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Nov 16, 2021 06:36
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Is having an extra damage die just not that good? Seems like you could power attack every turn almost, but charge you'd just charge once at the start? Power Attack is great at low levels when you don’t have other things to do with the actions; it’s essentially two attacks with no MAP, and is just as good as (arguably better than!) the much vaunted Double Slice before striking runes come online at a level outside the scope of your 1-3 plan.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:08
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Kinda depends on the size. A power attacked d12 will be some hot poo poo at low levels.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:29
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Harold Fjord posted:Kinda depends on the size. A power attacked d12 will be some hot poo poo at low levels. Power Attack is at its worst at low levels, to the point where its worse than just straight out attacking at most of low levels
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Nov 16, 2021 14:56
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Kitfox88 posted:How can I reliably get combat advantage as a burly ruffian rogue using a spear? Only one other melee person in the party so flanking is a little irritating to set up Ask your GM for Free Archetype or the cheeky beloved by Hobbits 2nd Free Archetype and then take Beastmaster. If the GM is a meanie its still relatively cheap feat wise. Have your animal friend flank with you. 2nd Beastmaster Dedication 4th Mature Beastmaster Companion: Key as it increases your animal companions stats and gives it a free Stride or Strike if you didn’t Command an Animal 6th Your choice 8th Incredible Beastmaster Companion: Pick Nimble, it’ll end up with better AC than yours. 10th Your choice 12th Your choice 14th Side by Side: Get a flank if both you and your companion are adjacent to the same foe.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:03
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What do you guys think of offering Free Archetype OR Ancestry Paragon? They both seem like "hey, you get some free feats!" in roughly same amounts.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:19
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Piell posted:Power Attack is at its worst at low levels, to the point where its worse than just straight out attacking at most of low levels The real takeaway here is not Power Attack Bad - it’s honestly close enough you’d not feel the real difference - especially at 1-3 where the charts pretty clearly show it to be basically the same as or better than normal unless you’re doing power attack and then a -10 attack - so much as that Exacting Strike is really really good in any sort of stand and deliver attack spam situation.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:23
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Megazver posted:What do you guys think of offering Free Archetype OR Ancestry Paragon? They both seem like "hey, you get some free feats!" in roughly same amounts. I think if interchangeable it seems pretty cool. Forcing players to pick one or the other path from the outset might feel bad for the people that pick ancestry. Some players plan well ahead but even doing that sometimes you make changes and ancestry has a lot less things to play around with overall then the world of free archetypes.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:27
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Harold Fjord posted:I think if interchangeable it seems pretty cool. Forcing players to pick one or the other path from the outset might feel bad for the people that pick ancestry. Some players plan well ahead but even doing that sometimes you make changes and ancestry has a lot less things to play around with overall then the world of free archetypes. I am pretty open to players rebuilding their characters (or even retiring them and introducing something completely different) if they're tired of their current character or their build. I am considering this for a short game of Malevolence, so they'd start at Level 3 and go to maybe 5? I haven't researched every single Archetype and all the Ancestry feats and I suspect Archetypes might be straight up stronger but hey, I am giving them a choice and either option is already on top of how powerful the game math supposes them to be.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:22
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Megazver posted:I am pretty open to players rebuilding their characters (or even retiring them and introducing something completely different) if they're tired of their current character or their build. In the 3-5 range, it’s basically fine; Archetypes are clearly and definitely stronger, but also, with only 2 archetype feats to work with, they won’t all come into their own and low level ancestry feats are designed to just do stuff out of the gate most of the time which might be more desirable at that point anyway. I think something like this could break down pretty badly at higher levels (or, not break down, but just become a player trap) if you use Paragon as written since it explicitly only gives you a level 1 Ancestry feat. Honestly, I’d open it up to “a General Feat” with Paragon as availiable even and it would be fine. If you were to ignore that level 1 restriction, at high levels, you’d be enabling some kind of stupid stuff that you probably don’t want to do (for example, flying-eventually ancestries like kobolds need a 3 feat chain to get there, and are basically trading away all the other ancestry stuff to do it. That’s a pretty good trade for folks that want it, but if it’s not actually a trade off, you can start to expose some real imbalances)
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Nov 16, 2021 16:53
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I think the Ancestral Paragon alternate ruleset is more frequent bonus feats at various levels, not just the feat that gives you another level 1 feat
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Nov 16, 2021 17:02
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Harold Fjord posted:I think the Ancestral Paragon alternate ruleset is more frequent bonus feats at various levels, not just the feat that gives you another level 1 feat Oh yeah, so it is, I always forget because they gave it the same drat name as the level 3 general feat. 
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Nov 16, 2021 17:16
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https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1336 When creating an ancestry paragon character, instead of starting with one ancestry feat and gaining another at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels, the character starts with two ancestry feats and gains another at every odd level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and so on) for a total of 11 ancestry feats.
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Nov 16, 2021 17:50
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I made this! Spent a lot of time last year playing one shots over discord and originally made this as a tool for the players that had not DM'd before, and the idea took off from there.   https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rollthedicegames/the-dungeon-master-deck
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Nov 16, 2021 18:30
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Piell posted:Power Attack is at its worst at low levels, to the point where its worse than just straight out attacking at most of low levels Hmm ok so I won't take power attack. Either Sudden Charge/Exacting Strike then Aggressive Block at level 2?
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Nov 16, 2021 20:20
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I really don't like Exacting Strike, because it's basically only usable if you stand there attacking three times in your turn, and only that.
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Nov 17, 2021 05:48
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