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Blockhouse posted:I have an extreme hankering to play V5 after mainlining so much Vampire stuff in the last few days but I'm stuck in the Forever GM zone   EDIT: What a garbage snipe. Have another piece of, for me, iconic VtES/Masquerade art 
TheKingslayer fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 05:23
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So what's so terrible about Mage 20? Did they turbofuck the rules from Revised?
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Nov 16, 2021 14:16
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I still think nWoD 2e is at best a sidegrade to 1e thanks to the bad xp and bad condition rules.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:58
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Fuzz posted:So what's so terrible about Mage 20? Did they turbofuck the rules from Revised? The rules are largely the same as revised, with added cruft here and there. The thing that I remember most is there's a sidebar early in the book about how "Resonance was explained in multiple ways in prior books, so we're introducing Synergy to try to explain it better, see p XX for more" and then Synergy turns out to just be a part of what Resonance already did, but picked out and named something different, and the interplay between paradigm, cosmic themes, Resonance, and small-"r" resonance are still a goddamn mess. The non-rules stuff is also mediocre at best. Brucato took the opportunity to downplay the core conceit of the game, much more so than Revised ever did. The Traditions and Ascension War are stupid, and you should feel stupid for wanting to play the game that we're writing a 700-page 20th Anniversary edition to celebrate. It just so happens the real heroes of the setting are the factions that happen to align with Brucato's personal outlook on real world magick. Also there's a half-page sidebar that just sort of rambles about the origins of the term "meme" and how, like, Mage is memes, man. As much as M20 core is a 700-page beastly mess full of overwriting and weird antagonism towards the game we're supposedly here to celebrate and love, the worst excesses are actually in the supplements. M20 core includes a very small selection of Merits & Flaws, presumably because they literally could not make the book any larger, and couldn't stand to cut or edit down the hundreds of pages of circular, bloated wankfest of in-character rambling that half-explains the setting. So here comes the Companion with 100 pages of Merits & Flaws and also reintroduces Secondary Abilities just like nobody wanted. The last few dozen pages of this book are also just personal, rambling blog posts from Brucato about Mage, or sometimes not even really about Mage. Contrast this with the V20 Companion, a slim 100ish pages about how to play the game Vampire with, like, one page of new rules in it. The core includes a laughable sidebar about the real psychic harm you risk by having Nephandi in your game. They are mentioned briefly in the M20 core as an obligation, but definitely do not include them in your games. Oh, here comes Book of the Fallen, a whole-rear end book for creating and using Nephandi. It starts with a dozen pages of Brucato patting himself on the back for his understanding of the banality of real evil, including more than one uncomfortable anecdote about other people near to him who suffered domestic violence. The book is littered with sidebars tut-tutting about real world evils like slavery, right next to "yuk yuk this NPC minion stat block is clearly just Cujo, the evil dog" and black lightning katanas. It literally says that despite all the character creation rules and cool evil toys the book gives you, there's no character sheet at the end of the book because you shouldn't be using this book to have fun. To summarize, the rules (in the core) remains largely comparable to the other 20th anniversary editions, but in the case of M20 this seems to have more to do with the lead dev not really caring to update them. The setting sees more significant changes than other 20th anniversary editions, and this seems to have more to do with the lead dev's personal, still very 90's, preferences than any effort to make a very 90's game more suitable for a 21st century audience. MonsieurChoc posted:I still think nWoD 2e is at best a sidegrade to 1e thanks to the bad xp and bad condition rules. The main power sets of every updated game so far are substantial enough upgrades that I'm 2E all day every day, but I do really dislike how Conditions are implemented.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:53
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That Old Tree posted:The main power sets of every updated game so far are substantial enough upgrades that I'm 2E all day every day, but I do really dislike how Conditions are implemented. Eeeeeeehhh, even then I have a bunch of quibbles. Some Discipline reworks are not good. The balance is all wonky. The Coils of the Dragon got murdered.
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Nov 16, 2021 17:11
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Coils of the Dragon got murdered. Yeah I was out as soon as I saw what they did to them. Make them harder to achieve and further up the coil tree if you have to, don't totally change and nerf them.
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Nov 16, 2021 17:27
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VtR's really the only 2e where the powers got screwed up, to me. Werewolf: Much more interesting implementation of renown and gifts than we've gotten before. Aspects are a cool way to distinguish each other in hunts. Mage: Fix some of the weirder categorizations of practices to effects and it's a flat upgrade, and I'm a sucker for the nimbus system. Changeling: Needs more guidance on making your own stuff (which could happen if books didn't come out roughly once a presidential administration) but contracts are well-executed and really give you the ability to be a tiny horrible god of a lovely little niche, which is strong faerie bullshit feel. Mummy: [ERROR GAME NOT FOUND] Promethean: Once you get past the fat drat dictionary of terminology sitting on top of everything, it's a novel setup that really emphasizes the pursuit of humanity through getting a sampler platter of 'what do people do' in terms of roles, and getting powers in line with how you get weird with those. Geist: Leaving aside the fact that the 1e>2e shift for this one is fundamentally "hey we gave you stuff to do and a reason to play the game beyond 'we put out this book' ", they took a power setup whose 1e was all over the place and tried to standardize things some. It's mostly a success, except that it is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the worst culprit of Condition-ization in all of CoD 2e. Tracking your powers in terms of "Applies ___ Condition <printed elsewhere in this book>" but then having the actual power ranks be "As <Condition> but now ___" just reads too clever by half, and ends up over-complicating how to read and learn most of what your characters can do. I won't even get into the ghost-aura deal you have going on, because: hey it's all Conditions only applicable to this one specific thing! Hope you like tracking those instead of just being told what they do up front! Hunter: Didn't have a lot to change, so I don't think it changed a lot? The one I'm the least familiar with next to Mummy so I could be wrong. Deviant: Only 2e, and it's a point-buy game in the ST system so your mileage may vary, but I'm mostly bringing it up to say: It's less reliant on Conditions than Geist. Jesus Christ, Geist. And even when it leans on Conditions, it's because it's something like "you apply Deafened (severe)" or "you get the Sick condition when ____" and not "we modeled this unique ability as a series of tiered Conditions."
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Nov 16, 2021 17:27
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That Old Tree posted:The rules are largely the same as revised, with added cruft here and there. The thing that I remember most is there's a sidebar early in the book about how "Resonance was explained in multiple ways in prior books, so we're introducing Synergy to try to explain it better, see p XX for more" and then Synergy turns out to just be a part of what Resonance already did, but picked out and named something different, and the interplay between paradigm, cosmic themes, Resonance, and small-"r" resonance are still a goddamn mess. The non-rules stuff is also mediocre at best. Brucato took the opportunity to downplay the core conceit of the game, much more so than Revised ever did. The Traditions and Ascension War are stupid, and you should feel stupid for wanting to play the game that we're writing a 700-page 20th Anniversary edition to celebrate. It just so happens the real heroes of the setting are the factions that happen to align with Brucato's personal outlook on real world magick. Also there's a half-page sidebar that just sort of rambles about the origins of the term "meme" and how, like, Mage is memes, man. Most telling is how the Traditions are sort of called out as screw ups with a huge dose of eurocentrism which, sure, fair but then Phil the Thrill pushes forward nine NEW splats - the Disparate Alliance - as the ones that really have it all figured out this time, man. Are they better than the Traditions from a concept perspective? I don't think so, even on top of being the group that gets the Hollow Ones.
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Nov 16, 2021 17:32
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One thing I wish Deviant had, and I know it's a relatively niche request, would be some guidance on roughly what Chronicle Power Level matches a mixed-splat group. Because: - It's one of the only instances I can think of where your starting power level (Magnitude / Variation dots to allocate at chargen) are entirely group fiat/non-xp-linked - Even xp-linking on Variations doesn't work well, because it's a flat 4 xp per Variation, of explicitly any Magnitude you wish as long as you have a Scar to entangle it with - On the other end of things, without Variations, Deviants effectively have no special abilities at all. The origin-based Adaptations give you bonuses to your Variations / mitigate Scar penalties / allow additional uses of 1/scene/chapter/etc. Variations, and a Deviant gets: Adaptations and Variations. The core Deviant chassis is pretty much an alternate morality system (Touchstones with Loyalty/Conviction) and that's kind of it. I assume this is something that's hard to offer guidance for too, because the other groups aren't created equally to begin with---on the one hand, a starting vampire's passive abilities by themselves take some points to model, but their Disciplines are all over the place. And how would you even attempt to stack it up against Mage? So simultaneously it's about to create a situation for our group where it's like, okay, does the Deviant player get 10 Magnitude worth of Variations, and the Mage players get bonus xp? Should they? What about the Promethean in the group? Or the Changeling? Or should the Deviant get more Variations or more xp? Etc.
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Nov 16, 2021 17:49
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https://www.worldofdarknessnexus.com/ So uh, thus us gonna be a thing now. If it actually works and isn't like, Gamespy meets MS Teams for PnP, that could actually be realy cool.
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Nov 16, 2021 18:21
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I would say that Requiem and Forsaken 2E are the big sidegrades/arguable downgrades because of how goofy they get with powers (by "powers" here I include both the ones you buy with XP and your innate splat capabilities) and how much ridiculous cruft they add in the course of building that stuff out. 2E Gifts are almost inarguably better, for instance, but the Gauru form is awful and giving each Tribe a favored enemy is bizarre. Mage on the other hand has way more improvements than it has mistakes.
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Nov 16, 2021 18:31
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Fuzz posted:https://www.worldofdarknessnexus.com/ They have me sold if this is roll20 with dark mode by default.
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Nov 16, 2021 18:32
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My main feelings about F2 are that the moon conspiracy stuff is very cool and the light brown text on off white pages loving blows.
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Nov 16, 2021 18:59
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That Old Tree posted:To summarize, the rules (in the core) remains largely comparable to the other 20th anniversary editions, but in the case of M20 this seems to have more to do with the lead dev not really caring to update them. The setting sees more significant changes than other 20th anniversary editions, and this seems to have more to do with the lead dev's personal, still very 90's, preferences than any effort to make a very 90's game more suitable for a 21st century audience. The base rules are also just bad. Vampire Revised was basically sound and V20 makes a few minor changes for balance's sake and the occasional racism and pruned what it didn't need, but M20 is a straight copy of basically everything ever written for Mage, including every skill form every supplement, which leads to ridiculous skill bloat. On top of that the descriptions are written by a madman who thinks that paying points to be bad at something or know everyday stuff like how to navigate your home town or use an electric blender is good game design. Options are spiteful, the GM advice tells you not to use the rules, the skill and merit examples are ancient pop culture references, and it rambles on for page after page after page, complaining about not having enough space for things but still insisting on ranting for half a page to the last word in in arguments from the 90s, telling you the author's patronizing attitude towards trans people, or giving you a playlist of music genres that only exists in the author's head.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:08
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I need to get Deviant at some point. Probably when I've finished my Trinity 2E collection.Kavak posted:Yeah I was out as soon as I saw what they did to them. Make them harder to achieve and further up the coil tree if you have to, don't totally change and nerf them. They didn't even need to nerf them, they weren't that strong in 1E!
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Nov 16, 2021 20:28
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MonsieurChoc posted:They didn't even need to nerf them, they weren't that strong in 1E! "I basically never frenzy" and "I don't have to worry about having to drink Vitae as I get older and stronger" are pretty strong.
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Nov 16, 2021 21:11
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The Coils were very SIGNIFICANT, but that's not the same as being strong. Efficiency and consistency measured on the scale of days or weeks isn't really better than being rich, or just putting an equivalent amount of XP into Vigor. The problem is that they were rewritten by Gamers who were like "holy poo poo +5% Vitae rouse efficiency?? obvious best in slot, need to nerf ASAP". Rhetorical weight was mistaken for, like, PvP effectiveness. See also how they murdered Protean claws and how they replicated half the 3E Fighter feat list in combat merits. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 21:31
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The three games on the front page for https://www.worldofdarknessnexus.com/ are VTM, WTA and HTR. Is Hunter The Reckoning coming back? Missed that is so.
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Nov 16, 2021 21:41
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:One thing I wish Deviant had, and I know it's a relatively niche request, would be some guidance on roughly what Chronicle Power Level matches a mixed-splat group. Because: Yeah - it's far too complicated a question to do in the corebook. (Along with what it does to the Conspiracy rules if your conspiracy is composed of something other than humans - people turned into Deviants by Ordo Dracul blood magiscience experiments, or using Deviant to stat Seer of the Throne Servitors, for example). I believe Eric intends to answer such things *somewhere* in one of the extras funded by the kickstarter. Probably a better bet than waiting for a Player's Guide.
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Nov 16, 2021 21:41
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Pakxos posted:The three games on the front page for https://www.worldofdarknessnexus.com/ are VTM, WTA and HTR. Is Hunter The Reckoning coming back? Missed that is so. Yeah they're making H5. Or was it H2O?
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Nov 16, 2021 21:42
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Ok, found the blurb for the new edition. I know the company that owns WOD sees them as IP slot-machines, but it is weird how they aren't even trying to distinguish HTR from Hunter The Vigil.
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Nov 16, 2021 21:51
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Probably a better bet than waiting for a Player's Guide. Do you have any insight on why you can share? One thing second edition seemed to be focusing on was getting out a basic trio of books for each gameline, Player's Guide, ST Guide, and Night Horrors. Not that it was planned it just doesn't seem like any of them are even suggested anymore.
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Nov 16, 2021 21:52
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Ferrinus posted:The Coils were very SIGNIFICANT, but that's not the same as being strong. Efficiency and consistency measured on the scale of days or weeks isn't really better than being rich, or just putting an equivalent amount of XP into Vigor. Yeah, maybe you take less blood to unlive, but you'll get owned by the Invictus who owns the city or destroyed by the cultists with blood magic.
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Nov 16, 2021 22:42
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Strange question that popped into my head as I'm preparing a MtAw Chronicle: If someone who's blind Awakens, how does their Mage Sight function? Is the same information found in their other senses?
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Nov 16, 2021 23:41
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Kavak posted:Yeah they're making H5. Or was it H2O? H5 and it'll be out Very Soon. A Renaissance Nerd posted:Strange question that popped into my head as I'm preparing a MtAw Chronicle: Daredevil vision. 
Fuzz fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 23:50
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A Renaissance Nerd posted:Strange question that popped into my head as I'm preparing a MtAw Chronicle: Yes. Smell, taste, hearing, etc have always been ways for a mage to interpret the magic around them. It’s just everyone assumes it’s vision because of the name. It makes sense, but use whatever you want to get the same mechanical effect.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:52
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MonsieurChoc posted:I still think nWoD 2e is at best a sidegrade to 1e thanks to the bad xp and bad condition rules. I though the flat XP costs for nWoD 2e were overall considered an improvement? Like no more having to play 7 sessions to raise a Discipline from 2 to 3 dots. Or do you mean like the Beat system?
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Nov 17, 2021 00:38
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nofather posted:Do you have any insight on why you can share? One thing second edition seemed to be focusing on was getting out a basic trio of books for each gameline, Player's Guide, ST Guide, and Night Horrors. Not that it was planned it just doesn't seem like any of them are even suggested anymore. Bearing in mind it's been two years since I quit, so have literally no inside information... I don't know how long nuWW will keep approving new Chronicles books.
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Nov 17, 2021 01:21
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Pretty sure their whole Nexus thing is a test bed to try for a wholly digital subscription based RPG system where you just sub and get access to everything, all the time, and then you can play on a tabletop or online if you get the premium sub or whatever. That's my prediction, at least. Eventually you'll stop seeing books and it's more just piecemeal rulesets getting DLC like additions of whatever to them, they'll bust out phone and iPad apps, probably try to get some sort of interactive table edition, if you want to go that route eventually (assuming it's even successful) and just generally turn RPG PnP gaming into a subscription vs a point of sale process.
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Nov 17, 2021 01:38
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Geist: Leaving aside the fact that the 1e>2e shift for this one is fundamentally "hey we gave you stuff to do and a reason to play the game beyond 'we put out this book' ", they took a power setup whose 1e was all over the place and tried to standardize things some. It's mostly a success, except that it is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the worst culprit of Condition-ization in all of CoD 2e. Tracking your powers in terms of "Applies ___ Condition <printed elsewhere in this book>" but then having the actual power ranks be "As <Condition> but now ___" just reads too clever by half, and ends up over-complicating how to read and learn most of what your characters can do. I won't even get into the ghost-aura deal you have going on, because: hey it's all Conditions only applicable to this one specific thing! Hope you like tracking those instead of just being told what they do up front!
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Nov 17, 2021 02:45
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Dawgstar posted:Most telling is how the Traditions are sort of called out as screw ups with a huge dose of eurocentrism which, sure, fair but then Phil the Thrill pushes forward nine NEW splats - the Disparate Alliance - as the ones that really have it all figured out this time, man. Are they better than the Traditions from a concept perspective? I don't think so, even on top of being the group that gets the Hollow Ones. The Disparate Alliance is an astonishingly daft idea because if any of those Crafts felt co-operative enough to throw their lot in with other factions, they'd have joined the Traditions already. The Eurocentrism of the Traditions might gall some, but then again the Disparates include the sodding Knights Templar who should have zero problem with that.
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Nov 17, 2021 02:58
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Really, M20 should've just gone hard on the 2e tone, scrubbed down the racism some, and then stuffed the Avatar Storm and Apathy Ascendant in an appendix. If you're going to significantly transform the setting/focus of the game, you're not really making a 20th anniversary edition in the same vein as all the other ones. And if you're going to fix Mage's problems, you should be doing a hell of a lot more than just taping a note to the Dreamspeakers write-up that says "the other Traditions are reductive about other cultures, anyway here's a giant grab-bag where most of the black and First Nations people go." Pick a loving lane.
That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 03:11
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Zereth posted:How many of those powers apply Condition that's only used by that power? Boneyard: Applies the Boneyard Environmental Tilt. Only used by Boneyard. Caul: Applies the Caul condition. Only used by Caul. Curse: Inflicts the Curse condition. Only used by Curse. Dirge: The subject gains the Dirge condition. You'll never guess! Marionette: Targets gain the Marionette condition. Sometimes it applies the Servant condition (only used for Marionette). Memoria: Sin-Eater gains the Memoria condition. Sometimes it also inflicts the Actor condition (only used for Memoria). Oracle: Sin-Eater gains the Oracle condition.This one's at least funny because on a dramatic failure you get the Dead Condition. Which is: You're dead (Sin-Eaters get better at the end of the scene). Rage: Sin-Eater gains the Rage condition. Shroud: Sin-Eater gains the Shroud condition. Tomb: Subject gains the Tomb condition. This is the full list of both Haunts, and Haunt conditions. So being less demonstrative: All of those powers do it. Sometimes they apply a second condition only useful for that power, too. At least they get their own section, "Haunt Conditions & Tilts," which is 4 pages long, and 200 pages after the Haunts section.
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Nov 17, 2021 03:18
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Gatto Grigio posted:I though the flat XP costs for nWoD 2e were overall considered an improvement? Like no more having to play 7 sessions to raise a Discipline from 2 to 3 dots. Flat xp cost is good, but the way you gain beats is FUBAR and also you get maybe one xp per game as written which ends up with slower advancement than in 1E in some cases. The fix is easy, just give 1xp or 2 per game, but this fucks up the already bad condition system and oh boy.
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Nov 17, 2021 03:49
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I'd actually prefer scaling XP and array-based chargen ala V5 (but not the incredible stinginess with which V5 actually hands XP out). I thought it was cute how Mage 2E kinda sneaks in scaling XP by increasing everyone's cost past the "limit", but the limit's quite high on everything but your inferior Arcanum.
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Nov 17, 2021 03:51
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Zereth posted:How many of those powers apply Condition that's only used by that power? They're not as core to the system as Geist, where literally every Haunt revolves around applying and using its respective Condition, but Promethean sure does have a separate unique Condition for each Refinement (as an Agenda Condition style ability - except Demon has four Agendas instead of ten) and each Transmutation (as an alternative consequence to showing your disfigurements when charging that Transmutation's powers).
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Nov 17, 2021 05:44
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:
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Nov 17, 2021 09:03
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Zereth posted:So, effectively, the Haunt rules are split in two two sections, 200 pages apart. White Wolf Game Design! Stupid and lovely since 1990
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Nov 17, 2021 18:03
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joylessdivision posted:White Wolf Game Design! Stupid and lovely since 1990 I'm even more willing to give Deviant a pass than Geist on this, because again, its conditions and tilts are largely standard blinded/stunned/etc., used across multiple places either for or against you, and standardizing effects in the way one expects out of the-entire-point-behind-making-Conditions-a-thing. So you're probably going to be referring to that same back section a bunch, but for different reasons.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:08
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Blinded, stunned, arm wrack, etc are to me all examples of conditions done well. They’re things that can happen to a character in a lot of different ways, and it can be a sort of short cut to that sort of rule. Those are things that already existed in concept anyway, but now there’s a neat little mechanic to use, and they put them all in a handy appendix. That was the ideal way to use conditions. Couple this with tilts (I guess we need two names for it? Could have just been AoE conditions), and you have a neat short appendix of frequently used rules all in one place. Then beats got attached to them. Okay, cool, so you get a fraction of XP when you overcome an obstacle. I guess that makes sense, but this is where it became a problem. Now you want to take conditions so you can progress as a character. Could you have gotten beats or XP for this sort of thing, sure. But now there’s a mechanical demand for more conditions so that everyone gets their XP. So lots of conditions get added that are really just power effects. And it snowballed from there and we ended up with all the single use Haunt powers that are also conditions.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:25
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