|
Jaxyon posted:Tmac failed because he didn't have anything useful to run on. And yes he should have just straight ignored CRT poo poo, he was never getting those voters. Agreed, and since neither party seems willing to address parents' actual concerns, we'll probably be stuck with CRT for a long time.
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:03 |
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:That's tricking them. They've been tricked into being white supremacists. They've been convinced it's in their best interest even when it isn't. That white supremacy helps rich whites steal from poor whites while telling them it's in their best interest since the beginning. The majority of white supremacy's supporters would be better off in a world without it but they've been tricked into believing otherwise. Republicans are reflective of them, not the other way around. They haven't been "tricked" into being white supremacists, they are white supremacists. This is a white supremacist society and they are white people. They know at a subconscious level what white supremacy is, that it's good for them and they don't want to lose it. Someone just found a legal phrase that would trigger the white supremacy that was already there, and was already being stirred up by a perception that their losing some of the racist power and social position they hold, because brown and black people were gaining some small level of power and equality and respect. If you think that white people were tricked by the elites into being white supremacist you don't have a very good understanding of how white supremacy works. F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Agreed, and since neither party seems willing to address parents' actual concerns, we'll probably be stuck with CRT for a long time. The group "lets make things better" will always be less vocal and passionate than the group "THE MINORITIES ARE GONNA REPLACE US AND STEAL YOUR CHILDREN" and it's a problem Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:06
|
|
|
Biden just said to a reporter live on TV that Taiwan is an independent country and they need to "make their own decisions" about how to run their country. lol Gonna be some apologizing or doubling down in the next 24 hours.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:07
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Biden just said to a reporter live on TV that Taiwan is an independent country and they need to "make their own decisions" about how to run their country. He should double down by sending Taiwan some nukes
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:08
|
|
|
RoboChrist 9000 posted:I'm sick of the Democrats (in general but I repeat myself) pretending that these are 'people' you can negotiate with in good faith. You are describing pretending to negotiate in good faith tho. Allowing them to define CRT like so will never give you a narrow legalistic blurb to simply refute. The CRT they will define in such a conversation will likely hedge closer to some sort of ‘unnecessary idpol in schools.’ such a thing that they’ll be against is tbh necessary, the only real discussions involve moral confrontation not technical definitions. The topics covered by CRT and IDPOL, and whatever the next racially dismissive buzzword is, are good things. Mellow Seas posted:Hell, make a big show of specifically banning the 1619 project from K-12, call them grifters who are monetizing American's racial problems, call them a bunch of phonies. Any "concession" that Democrats can make on "CRT" that doesn't actually affect conditions in classrooms (or deny current systemic racism problems) is probably worth doing. Make a big patronizing show of how you think white children, just like black children, should be judged by their character and not their race. Republicans are okay with banning even “the cuddliest, most non-polarizing parts of African American history” from schools tho, and they actually are trying to do so in many districts. To immediately just give in and put a limit to allowed racial discussions to deliberately cutdown topics will not suddenly just stop such racists’ efforts, giving in to republicans like so, to court R votes or w/e, is just purposefully making things worse for nothing. Jaxyon posted:You're not going to "call their bluff" by asking what this is, you can't reason them out of racism. Everyone involved in this already knows what is going on. It's racists exerting their power to make it clear that white supremacy should not be challenged.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:15
|
|
|
CRT is the same as the Tea Party poo poo that caught on after Obama was elected. It's purely reactionary, and as was the case with the tea party stuff, completely astroturfed into existence.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:20
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The vote to ban the books was 6-0.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:28
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Republicans are reflective of them, not the other way around. They haven't been "tricked" into being white supremacists, they are white supremacists. Wait, do you think every white person benefits more now than they would in a non-white supremacist society? It's tough to argue hypotheticals but I feel like that's not true. So I still stand by my point that it's a trick and racism and white supremacy is used to divide those who have more in common and connect them to a handful of elites as a dillusion. And you make it all sound like magic. If your point is that people will always find reasons to hate I agree but if it's specifically racism, no. That's silly. We're talking a set of beliefs that are only a few hundred years old, invented to justify mass enslavement and to give others a reason to feel no pity. Reinforced by outdated "scientific" beliefs to continue to push the idea of superiority and to explain to newer generations why the world, a white supremacist one, existed. I think as the animals we are humans are always going to have class and hierarchy in their social structures but racism is just the current flavor. It's not some deep evil lurking in all white hearts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:28
|
|
|
SpartanIvy posted:He should double down by sending Taiwan some nukes He has apparently chosen the surprise third option - not apologizing, but not doubling down and instead pretending that this has always been U.S. policy. quote:“I said they have to decide on Taiwan, not us,” Biden said he told China’s Xi. “We are not encouraging independence. We’re encouraging them to do exactly what the Taiwan Act requires. That’s what we’re doing. Let them make up their mind.”
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:30
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1460767301213507591?t=Bb0dmcnamq9xOehT2wQA2w&s=19 Where does this fall on the principled stand/performative bullshit spectrum? I know what I think but I'm curious what the wider internet left thinks
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:42
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Republicans are reflective of them, not the other way around. They haven't been "tricked" into being white supremacists, they are white supremacists. Gumball Gumption posted:Wait, do you think every white person benefits more now than they would in a non-white supremacist society? It's tough to argue hypotheticals but I feel like that's not true. So I still stand by my point that it's a trick and racism and white supremacy is used to divide those who have more in common and connect them to a handful of elites as a dillusion. I think we could agree that many or most of these people don't or won't think of themselves as white supremacists, which unfortunately isn't true of everybody you meet. That would be an important distinction considering how much of the country and culture is "tricked" into white supremacy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:43
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:Then pray do tell which states and which candidates do you think are more or less likely to follow this 'didn't go hard enough on CRT' advice? That would come down to who listens to which viewpoint expressed in the article, since there’s more than one of them? I’m not saying I have any special knowledge here, I’m describing the content of the piece itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:50
|
|
|
Fame Douglas posted:This is very much why US schools suck so bad and they're not getting better. You should be able to tell parents that no, their dumb ideas aren't working and that they'll just have to accept that their kid got a bad grade without threatening to sue and throwing a tantrum. Having parents very involved with everything is a big part of why teaching is such an unattractive proposition. But then we need to have a conversation of why college is required for a poo poo ton of jobs that it really shouldn't be, which is one of the reasons that parents pressure schools to give students better grades because if they don't the kids don't get in to schools and that relates back to racial education and bias and oh God it's all connected and yet another way everything is super hosed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:52
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The vote to ban the books was 6-0. Would anyone like to remind me again how calling these people nazis is hyperbole and non-productive? I'll wait.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:54
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Would anyone like to remind me again how calling these people nazis is hyperbole and non-productive? I'll wait. It's only non-productive if your goal is winning elections. It hasn't worked great as a tactic. If your goal is anything else it is super productive and very true.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 01:59
|
|
|
atriptothebeach posted:Republicans are okay with banning even “the cuddliest, most non-polarizing parts of African American history” from schools tho, and they actually are trying to do so in many districts. Well, yeah, a lot of them are - but there are a lot of people who vote for Republicans (and who serve in government as Republicans) who think "of course Rosa Parks, Jackie Robinson et al are a vital part of American history and overcome great obstacles to..." you know, who think standard uncritical Black History Month-style celebrations of "Black greatness" are just fine. But right now when those people think about CRT they think about how Republicans want to teach history and Democrats want to teach a bunch of crazy hokum about how all white children are inherently evil. Make it about how Democrats want to teach history and Republicans want to pander to racists. A big key is making sure that the target of the message doesn't think you're calling them racist because that's about the least persuasive thing you can possibly do, due to quirks of our cultural context and human psychology. I'm absolutely not suggesting Democrats just abandon advocacy for the black community - just focus on doing it through policy, and try to meet people halfway on the messaging. "Just never talk about race" isn't even an option for the Democrats because Republicans will always bring it up - it's their top seller.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:01
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Wait, do you think every white person benefits more now than they would in a non-white supremacist society? It's tough to argue hypotheticals but I feel like that's not true. So I still stand by my point that it's a trick and racism and white supremacy is used to divide those who have more in common and connect them to a handful of elites as a dillusion. No. Deal with what I say instead of whatever argument you'd like to be having. quote:And you make it all sound like magic. If your point is that people will always find reasons to hate I agree but if it's specifically racism, no. That's silly. We're talking a set of beliefs that are only a few hundred years old, invented to justify mass enslavement and to give others a reason to feel no pity. Reinforced by outdated "scientific" beliefs to continue to push the idea of superiority and to explain to newer generations why the world, a white supremacist one, existed. I think as the animals we are humans are always going to have class and hierarchy in their social structures but racism is just the current flavor. It's not some deep evil lurking in all white hearts. Reply to my actual posts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:04
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I wonder what happened to that whole occupy movement. They sure we're a bunch of leftists who were making charges in the discourse and were getting people to listen to them and pay more attention to what's going on. Honestly you really can point to them as the start of a lot of the public awareness in how influenced things are. What's your point? That happens to a lot of movements and it hadn't ended them. Hell, look at the history of the ALF/them being labeled as a domestic terrorism threat and what's now become of the national conversation about animal consumption since then. If anything, it should make you realize that going along with the mainstream is the easiest way to sway public opinion. Since, going back to my analogy about animal consumption, that's what largely happened when Beyond/Impossible broke that barrier with nation-wide chain restaurants. Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:05
|
|
|
rscott posted:https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1460767301213507591?t=Bb0dmcnamq9xOehT2wQA2w&s=19 It's a principled stand that is performative bullshit because it won't be disseminated by media as a point worth making so the people plugged in enough to even see it will most likely agree, but literally nothing will change. He could try to rally support and block it but, you know, capitalism
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:05
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:No. I did. Maybe I don't understand your point and you can have a productive conversation by clarifying instead of insulting. Kalit posted:What's your point? That happens to a lot of movements and it hadn't ended them. Hell, look at ALF and what's now become of the national conversation about animal consumption since then. My point was that the left faces more than mean words and write in candidates. And Beyond/Impossible is a weird example but I kind of agree. I do agree that if conditions change and the barrier to solving these problems is lowered they become easier to solve. Like inventing a new technology like the burgers. But the more abstract these problems are the harder they're going to be solved with new technology. We can and should improve material conditions but the current Democrats are pretty flakey on that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:11
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I did. Maybe I don't understand your point and you can have a productive conversation by clarifying instead of insulting. No you didn't, and asking you to reply to my posts instead of saying "wait do you think" is not insulting. I don't think that and didn't say that. Here's what I did type: Jaxyon posted:Republicans are reflective of them, not the other way around. They haven't been "tricked" into being white supremacists, they are white supremacists. And your reply was: Gumball Gumption posted:Wait, do you think every white person benefits more now than they would in a non-white supremacist society? You both misinterpreted what was being said, and then intentionally expanded it to be an absolute("every") that I didn't make. Instead of writing a post about an interpretation, engage with what I have actually written. I don't want an actual disagreement on white supremacy to become a slapfight because you want to rephrase my posts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:21
|
|
|
I do not know what to tell you that is my earnest interpretation. Since I didn't understand your reply should I have responded rudely instead of with an honest response from what I read? My point I, guess, is that most people who support white supremacy gain very little benefit from it. That's what I mean by a trick. They would benefit more in a world without white supremacy. That's the whole point. I legit just do not understand what you wrote.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:36
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I do not know what to tell you that is my earnest interpretation. Since I didn't understand your reply should I have responded rudely instead of with an honest response from what I read? My point I, guess, is that most people who support white supremacy gain very little benefit from it. That's what I mean by a trick. They would benefit more in a world without white supremacy. That's the whole point. I legit just do not understand what you wrote. The white majority in the country is not economically anxious dullards who have been bamboozled by the southern strategy into becoming racists. They were always racists. The politicians are appealing to sentiment that was already there. Does white supremacy hurt whites? Of course it does. It just hurts them less than it does everyone else. Would everybody be better off without it? Yes again, we all would, even whites. They are white supremacisists, they have not been tricked into becoming white supremacists by political elites. The problem is much deeper than that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:41
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Would anyone like to remind me again how calling these people nazis is hyperbole and non-productive? I'll wait. Right, this is what I'm talking about. It's all true. 100% agreed. But there's two levels to the nazis. There's the ones that are doing it because they know, and there's the the idiots that are just team sporting. Both suck. But yelling at the second group that they are Nazi's doesn't help anything. What does help, and we know this by pure numbers, is running on the stuff that is more popular, and then putting in place better safe guards to stop the nazi's from doing poo poo when they are in power.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:44
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Would anyone like to remind me again how calling these people nazis is hyperbole and non-productive? I'll wait. By "these people" do you mean the book-burners cited in that tweet, or all of the 150 million people who chose to not vote for Joe Biden for president last year?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:44
|
|
|
Nah they were bamboozled into becoming racists, there's no racist gene Kids aren't born hating black people or catholics or whatever, if an Irish Catholic family adopted a baby whose parents happened to be Protestant Unionists the baby's first words wouldn't be "God save the Queen, Ulster says no". You gotta condition kids into believing that poo poo so they voluntarily sign up as footsoldiers for imperialism when they get big VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:50
|
|
|
I seriously do not know how "race is a made up concept" is controversial here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:54
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I seriously do not know how "race is a made up concept" is controversial here. It's not. Please don't turn "I am having a disagreement on something nuanced with someone" into "actually I will just make up their beliefs" VitalSigns posted:Nah they were bamboozled into becoming racists, there's no racist gene You too. Knock it off.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 02:56
|
|
|
It would be suicidal for the Dems to call those Nazi bookburners Nazis because they are the affluent Panera Bread suburban voters that Dems have made the linchpin of their future strategy and they sure aren't going to let the working class back in lol Or at least not if courting the working class imperils those sweet sweet Blackrock donations, you and Blackrock can't both own your house after all. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:00
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:The white majority in the country is not economically anxious dullards who have been bamboozled by the southern strategy into becoming racists. It’s infantilism, “Boys Will Be Boys”-ing an entire population out of having free will. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:07
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:By "these people" do you mean the book-burners cited in that tweet, or all of the 150 million people who chose to not vote for Joe Biden for president last year? The Democrat (sexual predator) means that all Republicans are Nazis, of course.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:09
|
|
|
When a right-wing party wants to hold a bonfire for CRT books [but will actually burn To Kill a Mockingbird] I don't think that it's good for society for the left-wing party to see that bonfires are polling well, and sign on for the CRT bonfire. Especially because in its appropriate place in University / Grad School, CRT is legit and cool and good as a way of considering how the law interacts with race. I'm not sure what the correct messaging could have or would have been in Virginia, but it makes me really loving nervous that left-leaning people in this thread are being really gung-ho about piling on to the right-wing rhetoric for banning CRT, just because "technically it's not actually CRT being taught right now, got 'em". When your opposition has an awful sentiment, but is expressing it inaptly, if you publicly agree with them, you are boosting the awful sentiment, not the inapt expression that they don't even understand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:18
|
|
|
Devor posted:I'm not sure what the correct messaging could have or would have been in Virginia, but it makes me really loving nervous that left-leaning people in this thread are being really gung-ho about piling on to the right-wing rhetoric for banning CRT, just because "technically it's not actually CRT being taught right now, got 'em". When your opposition has an awful sentiment, but is expressing it inaptly, if you publicly agree with them, you are boosting the awful sentiment, not the inapt expression that they don't even understand. It's really strong "if we fix class we will have fixed race so lets work on class first" white leftist vibes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:21
|
|
|
Devor posted:When a right-wing party wants to hold a bonfire for CRT books [but will actually burn To Kill a Mockingbird] I don't think that it's good for society for the left-wing party to see that bonfires are polling well, and sign on for the CRT bonfire. Especially because in its appropriate place in University / Grad School, CRT is legit and cool and good as a way of considering how the law interacts with race. "If we have no good way to campaign with our options, gain electoral power...disengenuously(?) and then implement good policy" is a natural reaction from the discussion though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:24
|
|
|
Devor posted:I'm not sure what the correct messaging could have or would have been in Virginia It’s that simple a pivot, but it’d involve a politician 1) caring enough to learn a fact, and 2) having a plan to pivot to. So, never going to happen. AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:28
|
|
|
BRJohnson posted:"If we have no good way to campaign with our options, gain electoral power...disengenuously(?) and then implement good policy" is a natural reaction from the discussion though. If Democrats are guaranteed a win in all 50 states by explicitly campaigning "disingenuously" for a white ethno-state, I don't want them to do that campaigning. I think that when the entire political nation is speaking with one voice on a subject, you can't really un-ring the bell.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
Someone mentioned republicans taking credit for infrastructure projects after the BIF passed and lol. This dude voted no. https://twitter.com/usrepgarypalmer/status/1460367601700421644?s=21
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:33
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:My mind went straight to Chris Mathews having an on air panic attack about Bernie's storm troopers sending him to the gulag. This gets brought up as an example of liberal media's hostility towards leftists, but everyone else on that stage looked at him like the drooling moron he was, Chris Hedges told him he was being absurd, and he was fired shortly afterwards. Dude was one of the longest tenured hosts on MSNBC and basically lost his career because of that outburst. That's not to say that liberal media isn't hostile to leftists, just that Chris Mathews' stupid rant about being shot in central park isn't a good example.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:35
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:It's not. Please don't turn "I am having a disagreement on something nuanced with someone" into "actually I will just make up their beliefs" Maybe it would help if you explained what you mean by saying they aren't bamboozled into being racist they "just are" racist. How do people "just be" racist what's the mechanism? I think they're taught it by people and institutions that have a vested interest in dividing us up and turning white kids into footsoldiers of capitalism and white supremacy, do you agree and if not could you tell me how you think it happens? Racist gene? Original sin? Fairy curse? Racism is rational and they derive it from first principles or arrive at it scientifically somehow? Something else? E: Jaxyon posted:It's really strong "if we fix class we will have fixed race so lets work on class first" white leftist vibes. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:03 |
|
|
Jaxyon posted:They are white supremacisists, they have not been tricked into becoming white supremacists by political elites. No one is born hating another person because of the color of their skin. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love. It's really easy to just say people are naturally white supremacists, that they were born with hate in their hearts, and there's no point in trying to redeem them. But it's absolutely not true, and you can't build a better world with that as a fundamental assumption. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Nov 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2021 03:38
|
|
