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The thing about Snout being incompetent is, how can he be anything else? Characters aren't just strong or cunning or intelligent or kind out of the box. They are shown to be these things by using their talents to overcome challenges. And that's kind of a problem, because outside of the first chapter, there are no challenges! Whoa, this Ink Witch seems kind of manipulative, maybe even abusive, better stay on your toes around her Snout! No wait, that was unintentional, she's here to be his mom. It Arudak! I bet he's up to something! No wait, he's fine the whole conflict between him and IW was because of a bad breakup in college or something, it's fine. Look out, it's the antagonists! Evil Ink Witch....and....this guy! And they totally beat down Snout and erased his diary, Snout's in trouble! No wait, they just gently caress off and leave him there, also erasing his diary had literally no consequences. But wait! Snouts companions are missing, I bet they're in trouble! No wait, they also just hosed off and left him there, this is hilarious. Gasp! a spooky cabin full of necro vines, Snout's gonna need all his wit and talent for.... No wait, they can't effect him because he's deaf, so they mostly just wiggle at him. Oh no, Snouts companions, the ones who ditched him, are like a million miles away, and the only way to get too them is to find a hidden portal and bypass its lock. This will require both survival skills and some understanding of symbols, both things Snout has a passion for, you can do it Snout! No wait, Mom and Dad just text him the password and he literally just walks in one direction until he trips over it. Oh Dear, vine lady is all messed up, in like her soul and stuff, this will require our heroes to go on one hell of a quest to heal her! No wait, some sunflower dork just shows up and fixes it.....whew..... Snout needs a special book and....he left his library card, somewhere? Look, I'll be honest with all of you, I barely read that arc, it was super boring. But it got resolved because the library has a policy that protagonists get whatever they want, which is the most Mookie thing ever. I don't understand why he's even writing this, or why I'm reading it. Nighthand posted:Ink witch needs a Long Rest in between casts of the Ink Ship. Wait, this, this is why I'm reading this!
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Nov 16, 2021 04:21
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| # ? May 26, 2024 12:27 |
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Twelve by Pies posted:True, but they still had special qualities that made them uniquely suited for their narratives. Hobbits were extremely resistant to the lure of the ring, that's why Frodo had to hold the ring, because even Gandalf would've succumbed to its power (this is true of any hobbit, Frodo wasn't any more special than the other hobbits, to be clear, it's just he was the one who volunteered). Luke is a bumbling oaf but he's still Anakin's son and really skilled at using the Force, he's even able to make use of it to a limited extent after receiving the barest of training from Obi Wan, which is something that say, Han wouldn't be able to do. And the Rebel Alliance manage to destroy the Death Star because they look too insignificant to be taken seriously as a threat. Again, as a literal plot point. And Luke isn't a mighty warrior or the best pilot in the galaxy or anything. He gets clowned on by roughly everything he comes up against and his big Jedi super power turns out to be literally "letting go". In the second film he almost gets eaten by a space bear and his cool force powers are just barely enough to save him and he would've died anyway if Han hadn't come along to rescue him. Later, he loses the big boss fight and "lets go" even more literally. In the big climax of the third film he barely wins the boss fight rematch but would've gotten killed anyway if the guy he just beat hadn't saved him. Like in retrospect and in the later films he kinda gets mythologised as a mighty Jedi master, but Luke's actual record in the original trilogy is very lol. I mean both Frodo and Luke work perfectly well as protagonists in the narratives they find themselves in, but it's absolutely not because they're particularly competent or mighty or clever or anything like that.
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Nov 16, 2021 04:54
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seeing things made so poorly makes me hurt in my soul.
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Nov 16, 2021 05:29
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PoptartsNinja posted:Snout's one and only skill is You know as well as I do he didn't build poo poo
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Nov 16, 2021 06:47
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SubG posted:The plan for Frodo was basically to look too insignificant to be taken seriously as a threat, and Frodo's qualifications are personal fidelity and perseverance. Well sure, but hobbits were also uniquely qualified to hold the ring due to it having little influence over them. The same is true of Tom Bombadil too but of course the problem with him was that he would've cared about it so little he would've just forgotten it and left it where someone else would find it. Besides, Frodo looking insignificant stopped the moment he put on the ring in front of the Nazgul, because they immediately knew he had the ring, and pursued him to Rivendell and one of them still followed Frodo around even afterwards. SubG posted:I mean both Frodo and Luke work perfectly well as protagonists in the narratives they find themselves in, but it's absolutely not because they're particularly competent or mighty or clever or anything like that. Oh yeah, absolutely, I didn't mean to say they were competent or clever, just that they had some trait, some quality that made them suited to be the protagonist in ways other characters couldn't be. Frodo had his resistance to the ring's power, and Luke had his connection to the Force. The stories couldn't have played out the same way if Gandalf or Aragorn had the ring, or if Luke had just decided to stay on the burned ranch. Snout on the other hand has shown absolutely no character traits or abilities that makes him special or more suited to find Dominic's legacy than any other random guy, hell not only that we in fact we have two characters (Arudak and the Ink Witch) that do make them more suited to finding it, they have absolutely no reason to keep Snout around since he contributes nothing. Okay, I guess Snout technically has once displayed a trait that made him uniquely suited to succeed in a situation other characters wouldn't: when he went in the creepy shack and was able to avoid the siren vines hypnotizing him due to his deafness. That was more dumb luck than anything, but it counts I suppose. It's just that so far his trip has not advanced anything in any way. Like yeah he met corpselady from that but she hasn't contributed anything to the plot so far, she's just there to be sad with the other characters.
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Nov 16, 2021 07:59
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SubG posted:That's the thing that really gets me about Legacy. It's not just that it's bad. I don't even have a word for it. It's kinda like the uncanny valley or something. Like when someone who doesn't know how to draw at all tries to draw something it can end up looking like nearly incoherent scrawlings. And while that's bad, it's mere technical incompetence, and mere technical incompetence doesn't really register. Like yeah it's bad, but it's not offensive or anything. It's just that the guy doesn't know how to draw. And with Mookie's art...and writing...and plotting...and everything else...it's not just that it's bad, but it's got just enough...whatever...to elevate it above being mere incompetence and puts it in that uncanny valley region. Where it's not just bad it feels wrong or something. It's an anti-narrative. It is what you would write if you wanted to mock basic storytelling conventions, like character motivations, pacing, or plot hooks. It's just that, instead of being some sort of deliberate critique, it's entirely unintentional. Nighthand posted:Ink witch needs a Long Rest in between casts of the Ink Ship. Incredible. 
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Nov 16, 2021 08:25
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Nighthand posted:Ink witch needs a Long Rest in between casts of the Ink Ship. My god, what a shop.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:14
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Nighthand posted:Ink witch needs a Long Rest in between casts of the Ink Ship. 
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Nov 16, 2021 16:54
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Twelve by Pies posted:Oh yeah, absolutely, I didn't mean to say they were competent or clever, just that they had some trait, some quality that made them suited to be the protagonist in ways other characters couldn't be. Frodo had his resistance to the ring's power, and Luke had his connection to the Force. The stories couldn't have played out the same way if Gandalf or Aragorn had the ring, or if Luke had just decided to stay on the burned ranch. In both cases the author requires something of both Frodo and Luke, and that's that they be completely ordinary. In the case of Tolkein this is because of his larger narrative agendas: making points about hubris, the corrupting influence of power, the effect of warfare on everyday people, and so on. The original Star Wars trilogy has a similar large-scale narrative framing (the Empire is row after row of gleamingly identical stormtroopers and ponderously huge space battleships and the Rebel Alliance is farmboys flying busted-up old space jalopies that belch smoke and really could use a washing) and Luke's big wins as a Jedi are literally a) letting go and b) reconciling with his Dad. Like the only thing the narrative really needs out of Luke is that he has an estranged father. I mean I think we're mostly in agreement: when they both start out, neither Frodo nor Luke have anything particularly special about them except that they've become swept up in larger events. My point is that this isn't accidental, and I think you end up misunderstanding the point the narrative is trying to make if you're arguing that there was something special that made them particularly well-suited for their quests or whatever. A lot of other science fiction and fantasy narratives do involve "fated" characters and that kind of thing--Paul in Dune, or I dunno, the Stark kids in A Song of Ice and Fire. And of course The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars have a lot of other characters that are "special" in various ways. But Frodo and Luke are, as a deliberate narrative conceit, bland everymen.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:39
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They both step up to the moment, and are relatable as protagonists though. I think the thing I hate the most about Snout is how unrelatable he is. His manchild attitude towards everything is really what kills it. And that the narrative actually does bend over backwards to make Snout special. His Mongrelfolk nature is directly tied to why he could access the info in the Library, even though his connection to the action is so far completely by chance. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 01:12
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Beelzebufo posted:They both step up to the moment, and are relatable as protagonists though. I think the thing I hate the most about Snout is how unrelatable he is. His manchild attitude towards everything is really what kills it. And that's the problem Legacy has: it's completely directionless and lacks stakes and so there's never any tension, even in the "cliffhangers". This is compounded by the fact that the characters are ciphers who are poorly defined behind a couple defining mannerisms. Like we spend essentially the entire comic with inside information on Snout's thoughts and you can't really say much about him other than he's mopey. The comic keeps insisting that he's curious, but his actions sure as poo poo don't demonstrate this, and we're not really given anything which explains why the other characters are drawn to him. Like we get strips like the one where Arudak says that he admires Snout's simplicity of purpose or whatever, but that's more or less identically the same thing everybody says and it doesn't feel like something that's happening organically based on what we're shown, it feels like something the narrative is just insisting is true in spite of what we're shown. Like I guess this could all be retconned into Snout being Asimov's Mule or something, but it really feels like a big ball of lukewarm bleh. And Snout's the character Legacy spends the most time with.
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Nov 17, 2021 02:03
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SubG posted:But Frodo doesn't resist the Ring's power Ultimately, no, because the ring is a corrupting influence on anyone who holds it. I know it finally takes him at Mount Doom, but anyone else, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, even Gandalf, would never have lasted anywhere near that long. They probably would've fallen to the ring's power in a few days, whereas Frodo was able to last (almost) the entirety of however long the events of LotR last (I don't actually know!). That's why he's resistant to it, which is different from being immune to it (only Tom Bombadil was immune to it).  And again, this isn't special to Frodo: Bilbo had the ring for many years and was (mostly) fine, Sam had it for a little while too but he wasn't hesitant to give it back to Frodo at the first opportunity. And that's pretty incredible that both Bilbo and Sam were able to willingly give up the ring, if a non-hobbit had to hold the ring even for just a little while they would very likely would have hesitated to return it. And if they had actually worn the ring like Bilbo and Sam had to do a couple of times, they almost certainly would have been controlled by it.SubG posted:I mean I think we're mostly in agreement: when they both start out, neither Frodo nor Luke have anything particularly special about them except that they've become swept up in larger events. My point is that this isn't accidental, and I think you end up misunderstanding the point the narrative is trying to make if you're arguing that there was something special that made them particularly well-suited for their quests or whatever. We are mostly in agreement I think, though I am arguing that they were particularly well-suited for their quests, but I'm not arguing that they were fated or destined to be heroes or great people, or that they were some sort of chosen ones. And hell, I don't even know if you can say Frodo is a hero in the end, he basically became the villain and it was only luck that Gollum happened to show up and was able to bite Frodo's finger off and then accidentally fall into the lava. If it hadn't been for that, Sauron wins because of Frodo's actions. I agree completely that Frodo and Luke are deliberately bland everymen. In LotR's case that's the entire reason hobbits as a whole are resistant to the ring's power. Being bland everymen is the reason why Bilbo and Sam are almost completely unaffected by it, and why Frodo is able to resist it for so long before finally succumbing to it. If they weren't bland everymen they would've been consumed by the ring. That's why hobbits are particularly well-suited for the quest of destroying the ring (although again, as you have mentioned before, Frodo did ultimately fail in his quest). I guess Luke's ability to use the Force wasn't really that big of a deal in the first Star Wars movie though. It's possible anyone on Tattooine who used to bullseye womp rats in their T-16 could've made that shot.
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Nov 17, 2021 03:34
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Twelve by Pies posted:We are mostly in agreement I think, though I am arguing that they were particularly well-suited for their quests, but I'm not arguing that they were fated or destined to be heroes or great people, or that they were some sort of chosen ones.
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Nov 17, 2021 04:58
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I predict the conversation is about to shift dramatically
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Nov 17, 2021 06:21
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i am deeply concerned by the motion lines on the arm that is reaching into her vagina
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Nov 17, 2021 06:24
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mookie wtf
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Nov 17, 2021 06:28
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Oh my.
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Nov 17, 2021 06:48
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I just looked at this page and sighed.
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Nov 17, 2021 06:51
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This could go a lot of ways and I don't think I'll like any of them.
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Nov 17, 2021 06:53
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Rotten Red Rod posted:This could go a lot of ways and I don't think I'll like any of them. There may even be loving, consensual sex scenes if the story calls for them. We’ll see what happens.
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Nov 17, 2021 07:05
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This was not called for
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Nov 17, 2021 07:51
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SubG posted:I think what Tolkein is trying to convey is that it could be more or less literally anyone, with the exception of guys like Gandalf and Aragorn...specifically because they're too powerful/magical/talented/fated/whatever. That is, those guys are traditional heroic figures, and the only qualification to be the ringbearer is, essentially, that you have to be non-heroic. Then we are in complete agreement. Anyway My reaction to this was basically that gif from Italian Spider-Man. So, okay, ignoring the bottom third of the comic, I think it's kind of amazing that Snout's reaction to seaweed orc either testing Arudak/corpselady or telling them harsh truths to force them to be introspective is to say "Come immediately solve their problems for them." It really does show that Snout has everything given to him without having to do anything, because his demand is for seaweed orc to do exactly that. Is Arudak's quest right or wrong? Is he chasing an idealized version of his lover? Does he truly love her if he feels she deserves to stay dead for (maybe) cheating on him? Is it possible there isn't One True Love for people and that everyone may love multiple people in their life? Is he trying too hard to live in the past, and he should look forward and try to make sure he's doing his best right now? Is that what would make her happy? gently caress all those questions, those are too hard for poor Arudak, come to town and tell him if he should resurrect her or not so he doesn't have to think about them.
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Nov 17, 2021 07:59
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Ugggghhhhhhhhhhh
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Nov 17, 2021 08:03
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SubG posted:Yeah, that's my point. The problem isn't that Snout is incompetent. There are plenty of narratives driven by protagonists who lack the sorts of "heroic competencies" we usually want to associate with high fantasy adventures. Characters loving up or getting their asses handed to them is one of the things that makes a narrative interesting. Think about the very first time we meet Indiana Jones. He's apparently really good at this adventuring stuff, right? He knows just how to carefully and laboriously sneak past all these elaborate traps. That lets him get within grasping distance of the golden idol, and he carefully measures out enough sand to counterbalance it...and he fucks it up. At which point he has to barrel his way back through all the traps he had just got done carefully circumventing, setting most of them off in the process. And after getting dirtied up and lightly battered he emerges from the tomb with the treasure...only to get it ganked by the bad guy, who walks off with the treasure without having raised a sweat. Now compare this with a version where Indy just kinda strolls through the tomb using his +5 legendary thieves tools to disarm all the traps and successfully retrieves the treasure without a hitch. That's the biggest crime any narrative, and in particular any adventure narrative, can commit: it's boring. And then there's the Legacy option: Snout blissfully strolls through the temple, avoiding all traps by accident, drools over the shiny object, grabs it and then has to run when all the traps activate. Once outside, he looks sad for a millisecond because he had to leave the shiny behind, then a naked woman appears, gives him a "Wanna gently caress?" smile and hands him the item. In other news, did Snout just write the letter to naked orc woman while walking towards her, interrupt himself when he saw she was masturbating? naked? nakeder than before? whatever? and wrote "Oh my" in his journal to show how impressed he was? Because I know this is an old complaint but what the gently caress, this is not how writing works!
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Nov 17, 2021 08:05
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I wouldn't be surprised if arudak and the ink witch worked together to put a spell on him that makes his every thought fall out of his head written down on a piece of paper for his convenience
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Nov 17, 2021 08:10
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Mookie's so dedicated to passivity on the part of his protagonists that they can't even introspect on their own.
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Nov 17, 2021 08:42
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What are the odds that this is the real abuser that Ink Witch the Ink Witch is going to save Scrunt from?
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Nov 17, 2021 09:25
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PoptartsNinja posted:What are the odds that this is the real abuser that Ink Witch the Ink Witch is going to save Scrunt from? it does feel like mookie specifically wrote this character to be like "no ink witch isnt the abuser check out this extremely questionable scenario i wrote"
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Nov 17, 2021 09:53
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I don't know where this is going but I know it ain't good.
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Nov 17, 2021 09:56
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PoptartsNinja posted:What are the odds that this is the real abuser that Ink Witch the Ink Witch is going to save Scrunt from? I am willing to bet it's exactly this
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Nov 17, 2021 10:07
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You will be remembered for your kindness except when you get horny then you'll leave your friends out to dry.
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Nov 17, 2021 10:20
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lol he's loving going for it.
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Nov 17, 2021 10:47
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no
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Nov 17, 2021 10:49
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YES
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Nov 17, 2021 10:50
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Nov 17, 2021 10:54
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Why's he freaking out? He's seen her naked before. And vice versa. Earlier that day. Like why's this being coded differently than literally every other time Snout's been around a naked woman before? Like are we supposed to think she's particularly attractive? Or perhaps Ink Witch and corpsemom are supposed to be particularly unattractive?
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Nov 17, 2021 11:01
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PoptartsNinja posted:What are the odds that this is the real abuser that Ink Witch the Ink Witch is going to save Scrunt from? Nah, that would entail conflict. She greeted them with the symbols for "renewal", "challenges", and "order", so she's having them confront their inner doubts or fears so they can overcome them and face their quest with renewed confidence or whatever.
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Nov 17, 2021 11:02
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SubG posted:Why's he freaking out? He's seen her naked before. And vice versa. Earlier that day. She was making "gently caress me" eyes at Snout during the whole thing too so it can't be the look on her face either. I wonder if she really is supposed to be masturbating, since even if you've seen someone naked before, walking up on them doing that would be a completely different situation.
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Nov 17, 2021 11:26
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SubG posted:Why's he freaking out? He's seen her naked before. And vice versa. Earlier that day. it's because she's jacking it, op
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Nov 17, 2021 11:59
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this strip made me feel like I (mid30s f) need an adult which I think might be the first time this comic has made me feel anything other than disappointed and annoyed
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Nov 17, 2021 12:08
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