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One of the somewhat more senior developers on the ticket team has been given the job of coordinating the teams efforts, but they're not really a manager as such. I don't actually mind the work itself, the tickets are easy, and helping someone who actually cares about a problem is validating to me. I do mind that there's does not seem to be as much room for personal growth. It seems to me like people get recognition and clout here by proposing and delivering on larger individual projects; if half my time is taken up by working on these tickets that's a lot of time spent doing work I probably won't get any recognition for. It could hurt my salary growth, especially as it seems like some very well compensated on-call duties will be limited to the people on the a-team. Rotating the duty seems a lot fairer, but yeah, I don't think I will make a lot of friends by speaking up. thotsky fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 02:24
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Gibbon posted:Sounds like that CEO hasn't learnt to let go, maybe they started the company Yeah, it's this Generally they just want to see who is coming on board and they want the final veto in case some real shitlord made it through the gauntlet It's a neutral sign, but yeah it's probably the founding CEO. Ask him/her a lot of questions about the history of the company and what kind of risks they had to take to get there, and if he/she thinks there's still room at the company to think big and grow further, they'll eat that up and it'll possibly be a memorable discussion for them
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Nov 17, 2021 03:13
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thotsky posted:One of the somewhat more senior developers on the ticket team has been given the job of coordinating the teams efforts, but they're not really a manager as such. I don't think that "probably" or "it seems" is going to be enough to change anything, you'll have to bring up specifics to your manager. For example, if you are an Intermediate Computer Toucher and the rubric says to be a Senior Computer Toucher you need to be a go-to expert for touching a certain kind of computer, but the tickets assigned to the B team make it impossible for you to achieve this then you have a pretty good case for shifting some workload around. Ideally, at this point your boss will either rearrange some tasks to help you meet your career objectives or can work with you to slot the tickets you are already working on into the promotion/raise rubric. You're right that coming at the boss with "some of the work I do isn't glamorous" is not a productive way of handling this situation.
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Nov 17, 2021 04:54
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thotsky posted:One of the somewhat more senior developers on the ticket team has been given the job of coordinating the teams efforts, but they're not really a manager as such. Ok, so one of my teams that I manage is your B team, essentially. You must put effort into growing those people or they will stagnate. Sure, I have several people who like the work and have no intention of growing out, that's great! I can give them a very nice career. But for those who want to move on to a more feature oriented SDLC team you have to actively be working them towards that. My main person is usually someone doing a career change and having gone through a bootcamp. I get usually a responsible, experienced person who just needs real software experience (at a good, junior engineer pay) and then we can figure out where in the company is a good place to land. The fact that the team is not going to be actively managed and there is no real rotation is a big red flag. I would strongly consider having a frank, but calm discussion with your manager on what this means and what a timeline looks like. If it's truly "Sure, we'll rotate people after 2 quarters" (and you trust your manager, big if) then sure, this could be fine and not a big deal. But I doubt it. The longer you wait the less likely they will want to do anything beyond make the ticket queue go away. I'd also strongly recommend brushing up your resume and starting up that engine, because this isn't a good look. To be clear: This kind of team can actually be very fun and a very good job, but only if it was clear this was the work from the beginning. I'd liken it to being hired to do software engineering and then getting switched to QA. QA can be really great! But it's not the job you were hired for.
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Nov 17, 2021 05:19
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Yeah, I was hired to work only on one part of the architecture, one particular technology, and this was meant to be my career move away from tickets, at least tickets not relating to this specific thing, to a more senior/architect/independent role. It feels like a step back. I guess they could have decided it's not as an important area for them after all, or that I am not as senior as they expected. Unfortunately, our contract gives them a lot of room to change the nature of the position, so I don't think I have a strong case.
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Nov 17, 2021 08:52
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Lockback posted:I'd also strongly recommend brushing up your resume and starting up that engine, because this isn't a good look.
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Nov 17, 2021 14:07
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thotsky posted:Yeah, I was hired to work only on one part of the architecture, one particular technology, and this was meant to be my career move away from tickets, at least tickets not relating to this specific thing, to a more senior/architect/independent role. It feels like a step back. I guess they could have decided it's not as an important area for them after all, or that I am not as senior as they expected. Unfortunately, our contract gives them a lot of room to change the nature of the position, so I don't think I have a strong case. That's definitely not good then. If you trust that your boss cares about your career, bring it up at a 1:1. Either way Lockback posted:
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Nov 17, 2021 15:40
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Don't talk to the CEO about work-life balance. That's one of the "normal" things that we discuss that apparently CEO's can't stand to hear about. (Got a "everyone liked you, but *insert CEO's name* felt that you wouldn't be committed to the product." All I said was that WLB was and important aspect of my search and I felt like their company had a good culture for that...).
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Nov 17, 2021 16:52
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Talk to the CEO about work/life balance and get rejected from bad jobs
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Nov 17, 2021 16:54
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While work-life-balance is important it's not a good topic of conversation in an interview with a (founding) CEO of a 400 person company. Among other reasons, that CEO almost certainly does not have good work-life-balance given they've invested a significant part of their career and personal investment growing the company towards success, even if it's something that's OK in the rest of the company culture. Beyond that though, you probably want to say something about yourself that's memorable in a good way. Since you're (potentially) one in a sea of 400, tell the CEO something interesting about yourself that might make them say "oh you're the ___ guy" the next time they see you, lest you be entirely forgettable.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:11
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kayakyakr posted:Don't talk to the CEO about work-life balance. That's one of the "normal" things that we discuss that apparently CEO's can't stand to hear about. disagree. i fly the "im a dad and my son is more important than my job" flag as high as i can get it. if somebody screens me out based on that, then good. he is. any company that tries to make me choose is not gonna work. it really helps to have the child "excuse" though. most people can't imagine themselves as the good guy if they don't like what i say above. but someone just saying "i care about work life balance" can be rationalized as being lazy or whatever dumb thing they make up. of course, admitting you're a parent opens you up to a new exciting level of being screened out. fwiw i've had my thing go both ways - it's screened me out, but has also led to a half hour bull session where the CEO and i talked about our kids and my dissertation. it owned.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:20
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ExcessBLarg! posted:While work-life-balance is important it's not a good topic of conversation in an interview with a (founding) CEO of a 400 person company. Among other reasons, that CEO almost certainly does not have good work-life-balance given they've invested a significant part of their career and personal investment growing the company towards success, even if it's something that's OK in the rest of the company culture. I'm inevitably "the tank guy", so I can ask whatever questions I want without repercussions.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:33
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Is it very stupid to try to transition into some form of graphics programming if I’m not specifically looking to get into games? Are there actually a decent number of non-games roles out there? Do they pay as bad as games because that’s the talent pool they’re mostly drawing from? I’m totally over programming after 10 years of working on engineering tools and processes (I guess I’ve been like a SETI at Google though I’ve never worked there and my role is just called software engineer) and am looking for something more concrete, close to the hardware, and mathy that made me enjoy it in the first place.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:15
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Scientific computing might be an option. What's your educational background?
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Nov 17, 2021 18:21
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I would imagine autodesk/adobe/solidworks are hiring for roles like that, there's probably other professional products adding new/improved features. Probably pays better than most gaming companies, with better WLB
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Nov 17, 2021 18:22
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ultrafilter posted:Scientific computing might be an option. What's your educational background? Ten-year-old BSes in CS and Math, never went to grad school. I have a mortgage and child now so don’t really have time to get more schooling but I was hoping some self-study and making a little portfolio of projects on GitHub might get my foot in the door.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:24
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A guy I know started a relatively successful company (revenue positive, dozen employees) building out CATIA plugins.
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Nov 17, 2021 19:18
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people also do work for museum installations and fancy building lobbies etc.
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Nov 17, 2021 19:26
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Eggnogium posted:Is it very stupid to try to transition into some form of graphics programming if I’m not specifically looking to get into games? Hadlock posted:I would imagine autodesk/adobe/solidworks are hiring for roles like that, there's probably other professional products adding new/improved features. Probably pays better than most gaming companies, with better WLB I worked for one of those. Better WLB and probably better pay than most games but definitely below SE as a whole for the graphics side. Still a pretty good job though. Are you sick of the industry or have you just had 1-2 bad jobs?
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Nov 17, 2021 19:30
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Ensign Expendable posted:I'm inevitably "the tank guy" What does this mean?
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Nov 17, 2021 19:55
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Lockback posted:I worked for one of those. Better WLB and probably better pay than most games but definitely below SE as a whole for the graphics side. Still a pretty good job though. Just sick of the industry I think. Honestly I would call my job "good": pay is average, my manager is supportive, WLB is good, my team makes real progress and improves things. I'm just totally bored by the work, every obstacle is just an annoyance, and since I'm senior I can't just grab tasks off the queue and do them. I'm expected to drive direction a little which seems impossible when you don't give a poo poo.
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Nov 17, 2021 19:58
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Eggnogium posted:Ten-year-old BSes in CS and Math, never went to grad school. I have a mortgage and child now so don’t really have time to get more schooling but I was hoping some self-study and making a little portfolio of projects on GitHub might get my foot in the door. Breaking into scientific computing without a master's degree is tough but doable. Your best bet is to get a normal programming job at a place that does it, and then either start working with the specialists or pursue further education as part of your job.
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Nov 17, 2021 20:06
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Armauk posted:What does this mean? I'm a military historian on the side, which is a topic that almost always comes up with upper management. The stereotype of men of a certain age getting into WW2 is very real.
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Nov 17, 2021 20:07
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Lockback posted:My main person is usually someone doing a career change and having gone through a bootcamp. I get usually a responsible, experienced person who just needs real software experience (at a good, junior engineer pay) and then we can figure out where in the company is a good place to land. Can you speak a bit more about this? I am one of those doing a career change having gone through a bootcamp (coming from 10 years of legal practice). I have some university computer science from before boot camp but I've continued to self-study things like DSA and design patterns on my own time after work. After 1 year of experience I was leveled as intermediate by several companies and now 2 years out I'm doing tech presentations at work and getting feedback from seniors that my code reviews with them are making them better developers. I'm at CAD$90k right now and I want to get into the $150k TC range at a company in the 15-200 employee size in the next few years. I still feel behind other developers in pattern knowledge but I think I'm much stronger than most of my team in understanding business logic and representing it in code, particularly in naming things and putting responsibilities in the right place. Sharing this knowledge is where the focus of my technical presentations at work has been. From your experience in growing bootcampers, how can I get to where I want to be?
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Nov 18, 2021 04:09
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Mantle posted:Can you speak a bit more about this? I am one of those doing a career change having gone through a bootcamp (coming from 10 years of legal practice). I have some university computer science from before boot camp but I've continued to self-study things like DSA and design patterns on my own time after work. After 1 year of experience I was leveled as intermediate by several companies and now 2 years out I'm doing tech presentations at work and getting feedback from seniors that my code reviews with them are making them better developers. Time. No one cares that you came from a bootcamp before, now that you have a couple of years under your belt. You're just a normal developer and your experience will speak more loudly than your education.
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Nov 18, 2021 15:33
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Mantle posted:
Oh man, legal experience and then got through a bootcamp? Jesus that's like a unicorn. The venn diagram of "Can think rationally and organize thoughts to succeed in a legal practice" and "Can code and doesn't get fight or flight triggered by abstract constructs" is such a thin line. Also, Canadian market is unfortunately lower. I've done some pokes into the CA software engineer market and basically thought it was like 20% lower than Midwest US salaries, probably half or less of west coast US. That was over a year ago and it does depend on where in Canada, so it might be different now. Anyway, actual advice. I tend to find the growth path for your "type" is usually "Takes about the same amount of time as a junior, speeds through intermediate, at senior it becomes more about specialization". $150k CAD is probably more in the senior range in Canada (depending on market), and honestly it sounds like right about where you are, or at least where you'll be soon. I don't know that you're ever going to be a master at a language or architect type person, that is an easier path to build foundations when you're young. However, understanding the business and being able to rationally explain how things work is super valuable. Have you thought about management career paths? Engineering managers who can do what you can do and have even just a couple years of experience coding are usually very successful. I also think, realistically, you are probably going to need to jump ship reasonably soon if you're still on your first job. Some places will usher you up pretty fast but its pretty rare to go from where you are now to where you want to be in the same place within a tight timeframe.
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Nov 18, 2021 15:59
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Lockback posted:Oh man, legal experience and then got through a bootcamp? Jesus that's like a unicorn. The venn diagram of "Can think rationally and organize thoughts to succeed in a legal practice" and "Can code and doesn't get fight or flight triggered by abstract constructs" is such a thin line. I think there are tons of similarities, especially surrounding modelling of business workflows in technical language. Contract drafting is like writing code in the sense that there are defined terms and meanings and the objective is to describe a business outcome or process. Writing code is the same thing but using a different shared language. Once you get beyond the point where you can just "make the program (or the contract) work", the craft of communicating ideas and intentions clearly, changing the emphasis without changing the meaning, etc. is very similar. And that's just the hard skills. quote:I tend to find the growth path for your "type" is usually "Takes about the same amount of time as a junior, speeds through intermediate, at senior it becomes more about specialization". $150k CAD is probably more in the senior range in Canada (depending on market), and honestly it sounds like right about where you are, or at least where you'll be soon. I don't know that you're ever going to be a master at a language or architect type person, that is an easier path to build foundations when you're young. However, understanding the business and being able to rationally explain how things work is super valuable. I have, and in SDE interviews, internal recruiters have actually asked me to apply for PM roles. I just really enjoy being an IC and I want to keep going down this path, at least for now. Are there different archetypes of "seniors"? i.e. Is there such thing as a "senior" where I don't have the experience of leading and building a product from scratch? I don't see being able to do that at my current company within the next year. However, in the end titles aren't as important as comp. quote:I also think, realistically, you are probably going to need to jump ship reasonably soon if you're still on your first job. Some places will usher you up pretty fast but its pretty rare to go from where you are now to where you want to be in the same place within a tight timeframe. I'm currently in my second job and have been here for less than a year. I jumped from my first role after a year at $53k when I told them I was looking for a raise to the $70k area and they came back at $60k. Looking back I don't think they could have paid $90k at the time, even if they wanted to because the company was bootstrapped. I think they were having trouble attracting and keeping developers and I heard everyone got raises after I left which coincided with an announcement of outside investment. From the places that were ok with paying the salaries I was looking for, they were all funded. I think that might be the key thing to look for if I am not able to get the jump in comp that I'm looking for over the next year.
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Nov 19, 2021 02:42
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I would love to learn more about applications of legal theory to software development. Sounds fascinating. I had actually considered law before I started college, but I heard a lot of horror stories and it sounded kinda fallow.
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Nov 19, 2021 17:34
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Pollyanna posted:I would love to learn more about applications of legal theory to software development. Sounds fascinating. I don't think it's really applications of legal theory. It's more like similarities in thought processes applied to both domains. I've never formally sat down to write these ideas down so I don't have a super clear thesis about it. In the practice of law I didn't get to exercise these skills with as much regularity as an IC dev does. A lot of my time as a lawyer was spent reporting, explaining, managing, billing, positioning, and advocating. I suppose my experience in those areas makes me a stronger dev. However I'm much happier now that I can spend more time unravelling and writing logic, which is also the fun part of practicing law.
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Nov 19, 2021 18:34
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Today is my last day at my current place. They've asked me to work overtime investigating a bug in a portion of the code I've never touched before. I get paid by the hour so I'm not going to turn down the extra money, but it seems singularly futile.
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Nov 19, 2021 22:08
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 , not surprised you're leaving
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Nov 20, 2021 04:52
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Eggnogium posted:Is it very stupid to try to transition into some form of graphics programming if I’m not specifically looking to get into games? Have you considered working on GPU tools or drivers? You could ask around at NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, Arm, Imagination, et al. I work in this field but I’m based in Europe, for what it’s worth. I don’t know what pay is like compared to other fields because it’s the only thing I’ve ever done. But the WLB has been good so far. I’ve never been asked to crunch etc.
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Nov 20, 2021 12:56
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Mantle posted:I have, and in SDE interviews, internal recruiters have actually asked me to apply for PM roles. I just really enjoy being an IC and I want to keep going down this path, at least for now. Are there different archetypes of "seniors"? i.e. Is there such thing as a "senior" where I don't have the experience of leading and building a product from scratch? I don't see being able to do that at my current company within the next year. However, in the end titles aren't as important as comp. Yes, but it all depends on the firm. Some seniors will fill in on lack of management or scrum master duties, some will provide more thought leadership or provide velocity on ambiguous projects, some will just be domain experts or architects. I usually don't expect a level of expertise like that getting into a senior role, but I'd usually expect some proficiency in those areas with some expectations that people will grow in those directions. And Lots of people get to senior or principal or even further without ever working on a product from scratch. However, I think it is important to work on initiatives from the ground up at some point in this phase of your career. And I think you know this, but for the most part the Canadian software market isn't quite like the US one, so be careful using stories you hear on this board and applying them to your career. And I'd generally agree, if you are looking for solid base pay you usually have an easier time finding that at stable, profitable firms.
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Nov 21, 2021 22:30
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Btw does anyone know why we'd use a spaghetti DI framework like guice over explicit dependency injection? I feel like the benefits of DI are lost by using a confusing framework.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:24
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oliveoil posted:Btw does anyone know why we'd use a spaghetti DI framework like guice over explicit dependency injection? Mamma Mia this is a bad one
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Nov 22, 2021 21:36
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Mamma Mia this is a bad one I'm curious about the answer, as I don't think I've been in a situation where "pass it in via constructor or parameter" was insufficient, but maybe I didn't know any better!
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Nov 22, 2021 22:27
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For our release process any dependency injection config would be essentially static for a single release (any emergency modifications would look more like a rollback or cherrypick) so there is really no value in using a second framework just for arranging components when we can do that in-language just fine and even get some nice validation from the compiler and downstream presubmits. Yes there is value in using DI patterns in the first place to enable various different configurations for testing scenarios, but these as well remain static enough that there is no value to doing it in a framework vs in-language.
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Nov 22, 2021 22:40
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Yeah I've used dependency injection since my first job. Only had the misfortune of using a runtime DI framework once and it was unpleasant but bearable as it was a small project that involved a java microservice. Now it looks like my new team has a bigass monolith that uses guice and I'm remembering how unpleasant it was on a small, straightforward project...
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Nov 22, 2021 23:54
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Today sucked... And then today was good. Meetings scheduled from 9am until 6:00. Rough. But that 4:00 was an interview that went well and we may have filled out our team! And in the 5:00, we tried the thing that our devops team had been struggling with, and suddenly it's working! Good ending.
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Nov 22, 2021 23:56
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If Guice is "spaghetti", what is using Spring/Micronaut for DI? A pan of lasagna? If I have to pass certain things around a lot and manual constructor DI is painful, I'll sometimes reach for Guice (just the basic stuff, MultiBinder and the like usually aren't worth it). That could be a smell that things aren't laid out well though. These libraries and frameworks make it easy to add complexity. Sometimes that's good and gives you ROI, but my experience is that people grab what they've always used because it's comfortable.
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