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Same goes for Mace Tyrell. In-world he's a bit of a blusterer and an amiable fellow, but because the Queen of Thorns called him an oaf (like she calls almost everyone), the show amplified that ten times until he was just a buffoon. Book Mace is actually quite keen to be on the winning side, knows how much his support means and is always securing massive loving rewards for his family, and trying to place more secure hooks in the capital; even Tywin knows not to give him reason to complain. Most of all, he obviously confers with his family before making most decisions, meaning they actually help each other out and avoid the worst fuckups. Like Tywin planning to marry Cersei to his heir, and him going "How about no" after checking in with his people.
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Nov 18, 2021 03:12
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House Tyrell got done the second-dirtiest by the show (after Martel lol) and just got barely saved by Natalie Dormer and Diana Rigg ruling. Where the gently caress is Willas? Dude rules. Show me Willas. I remember thinking the "vengeance, justice, fire and blood" scene by the Queen of Thorns was hype because my dudes would finally get to kick rear end in the show. Except oops, no, they accidentally died off-screen? Diana Rigg and Nikolai Coster-Waldau carry the one farewell scene but still. If gurm ever wrote a book, surely they were supposed to do something given their whole deal was going "oh yes my king, you can definitely beat those anime dragon people, go fight them, take all the armies" and then immediately swearing fealty and getting Highgarden when the obvious happened. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 12:16
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I can't believe how much they butchered Loras.
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Nov 18, 2021 13:29
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The whole revolt of the Faith thing was already a bit dodgy in the books, and an utter shitshow in the series. The whole "gotcha, you queer!!" thing with Loras and the church was just awful, and you know they were high-fiving each other over how great they thought it was. "I've seen that Loras has a birthmark! That proves we banged! In a gay fashion!" "You're my squire. That proves you drew my baths and helped me dress and armor up."
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Nov 18, 2021 15:31
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Sephyr posted:"I've seen that Loras has a birthmark! That proves we banged! In a gay fashion!" Yeah, this is generally my problem with a lot of fiction. One thing that attracted me to GoT in the early seasons is that characters were good at exchanging and interpreting information. As time went on, they just got dumber and dumber because the scripts needed to ratchet up drama with the least amount of effort, so characters got dumber (Take the "no, they don't swim" line and cut back to ONE EPISODE EARLIER when the undead could survive underwater). Spoilers for Stormlight Archive: in the Stormlight books, there is a character named Sadeas. He looks evil, talks evil, and acts evil. At the end of the first book, he betrays a protagonist's (Dalinar) army Dragon Age: Origins style by retreating and leaving them to die. A group of human wave slaves under Sadeas' command, led by another protagonist, defy Sadeas and save Dalinar's doomed army. In return, Dalinar buys those slaves and frees them by trading a priceless magical weapon to Sadeas for their lives. Meanwhile, other characters who see Sadeas during the retreat notice that it looks like his troops put up no fight at all, so it's well-known that he betrayed the friendly army. I only mention this because for the next book-and-a-half, Sadeas gets to walk around, handing out insults and public humiliation, meanwhile defying royal decree and picking up allies who trust him implicitly. Meanwhile, I look at every smarmy line of dialogue and can think of some great own I could have on the guy to humiliate him in front of his allies, like point out that his human wave slaves put up a better fight than his army did, but the author needed to keep Sadeas as a villain, which is a similar problem to how GoT worked. Whenever the writers for GoT needed an antagonist to be threatening, that antagonist was suddenly super badass with unlimited resources, and nothing they could say, no matter how dumb or nonsensical it was, could be countered by the protagonists with basic rational thinking. It's something I really hate. It can even go the other way for protagonists, like with Littlefinger's trial. All of a sudden, he can just be gish-galloped and Branapedia'd into a rushed execution. Granted, to me, the biggest plot hole in the books was a "just talk" moment where Tyrion should have said to Tywin that Littlefinger lied about the dagger so that Catelyn would target Tyrion. It's a simple warning that could have changed the course of the story, and any person with sense in their head would have done it.
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Nov 18, 2021 16:50
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Vichan posted:I can't believe how much they butchered Loras. It's a good example of how small changes snowball "Willas and Garlan are pretty minor characters, let's condense these Tyrell siblings into just Marge and Loras to reduce the number of people the audience has to remember" But if they don't have any big brothers, Loras has to be heir to highgarden If loras is heir to highgarden, he can't be in the kingsguard If he isn't in the kingsguard, what do we do with him? Some incredibly fumble-fingered attempt at writing a plot around his sexuality, I guess
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Nov 18, 2021 23:44
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:
That's also a thing in the books, but yes, a lot worse in the show. Even in ASoIaF, they very purposefully never give numbers to the Lannister forces. They lose battles and have whole armies routed through the first three books, but there's never a mention of how large a host they have left, how much manpower they can even use to replenish their ranks, if any vassals have been hurt badly and might be feeling antsy. They just click the barracks and spawn more troops. Comparativelty, we are told how hosed the North is to exhaustion. We know that Robb marched with around 20k soldiers, got another 20k from the riverland, how much they lose when the Karstarks leave, when Roose sends a host to die at Duskendale, etc. They even point out that they can't keep people mobilized for too long because there's alast harvest to bring in before winter (a problem no one else apparently has), and that attrition and desertion have shrunken their forces. Not to mention having a psycho in the ranks waiting for the first chance to kick the sandcastle, and a suicidal moron that basically forced his king to kill him after sending his whole army in small bands into enemy territory to be murderized piecemeal, to kill the guy who killed his sons (while blissfully ignoring his last remaining, captive son and actual heir. What did he think would happen to Harrion if they caught and killedJaime?).
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Nov 19, 2021 01:39
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we hear about the norths hard numbers and such because we are following people integrated with the norths command. we only see inside jaimes head after hes captured and tyrion is sent away from the army quickly and cersei is a complete moron
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Nov 19, 2021 01:44
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We spend time in Tyrion's head while he's acting Hand of the King, then Jaime's, then Cersei, then Kevan. No one talk or thinks numbers, or logistics.
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Nov 19, 2021 01:47
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hes acting hand of the king responsible for the function of the kings government not leading the lannister army. even with his son and daughter in charge and his grandson on the throne tywin is running that poo poo. he wouldnt allow his idiot failchildren to jeopardize the war
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Nov 19, 2021 01:50
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Yeah unless Tywin is telling him directly in a letter, there's not really any way for Tyrion to know any of that.
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Nov 19, 2021 01:58
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Sephyr posted:That's also a thing in the books, but yes, a lot worse in the show. Even in ASoIaF, they very purposefully never give numbers to the Lannister forces. They lose battles and have whole armies routed through the first three books, but there's never a mention of how large a host they have left, how much manpower they can even use to replenish their ranks, if any vassals have been hurt badly and might be feeling antsy. They just click the barracks and spawn more troops. Wait that's not true Tywin's main force is 20,000 strong, Jaime had around 15,000 at Riverrun We don't know about the 3rd army they were in the process of raising, but that was (it appears) more or less completely wiped out before it could do anything Tywin's forces presumably take some casualties in their inconclusive win against Roose and their inconclusive loss against Edmure, then again at the Blackwater, but they could make that up by rendezvousing with the 1/3rd of Jaime's force that got away. At risk of too much  , imo it's pretty safe to say the number of guys the Westerlands have available is around ~20,000, give or take a couple thousand from attrition and minor engagements. The main takeaway of that being that the Tyrells are very much the senior partner in the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at this point - they've got more guys than that even after sending half their forces home. The only question I'd have is have the Lannisters started demoblizing their levies? The War of the Five Kings has been over for a while by the time book 5 ends. this is not to say that GRRM hasn't left a lot of military stuff unaccounted for where have the Crownlands levies been all this time, for instance and the large majority of Stormlanders that didn't go with Stannis PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 02:04
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PupsOfWar posted:this is not to say that GRRM hasn't left a lot of military stuff unaccounted for the crownlanders are most likely sitting at home laughing and telling tywin that they'll send their levies to king's landing any day now, they swear, while having a big party any time they hear a good rumor about daenerys. the stormlanders are a genuine loose end tho.
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Nov 19, 2021 02:20
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The Stormlanders that don't go with Stannis join up with Loras and help defeat (or are at least present for) Blackwater right? But yeah we don't get any info about where they go after that.
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Nov 19, 2021 02:24
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That would make sense, but it doesn't show up in the text. The Stormlands military that isn't with Stannis just kinda goes away after Renly gets killed. Then Aegon and the Golden Company land and take the whole place without a fight.
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Nov 19, 2021 03:03
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:That would make sense, but it doesn't show up in the text. The Stormlands military that isn't with Stannis just kinda goes away after Renly gets killed. Then Aegon and the Golden Company land and take the whole place without a fight. He takes like the castle where he grew up by a trick because he grew up there and has a perfect plan to assault it then the
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Nov 19, 2021 04:22
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Yeah and that’s not even Aegon it’s JonCon, who was super gay for Rhaegar and that somehow spurned his whole arc or something dumb.
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Nov 19, 2021 04:34
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pseudanonymous posted:He takes like the castle where he grew up by a trick because he grew up there and has a perfect plan to assault it then the I forget if this is in the published books or the preview chapters.
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Nov 19, 2021 05:50
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Renly somehow raised an army of 100,000 troops in one field army which in Europe was an amount absolutely unheard of between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and probably Louis XIV
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Nov 19, 2021 06:41
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Can't find a Dune thread but I figure one of you would know: I read Dune an eternity ago, and after seeing the new movie I read Dune, Dune Messiah, and I'm halfway through Children of Dune. I keep seeing memes/jokes about Leto II (the Elder) and the wiki is of no use, so, my question is: when the gently caress was there a (first) baby Leto II that was killed by Rabban? I have zero recollection of this despite finishing the book two weeks ago.
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Nov 19, 2021 08:50
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As regards army sizes, again, yeah, that's kind of one of the better points ACOUP makes. All of what Martin is intending to depict as the horrors and problems of the pre-modern period are, in fact, problems and crimes of modernity. Huge armies and battles with massive casualty rates and deliberate targeting of civvies are all generally far more a thing to be found in modernity, than in the medieval period. Martin's basically doing the same thing the Victorians and to an extent the Renaissance folks did; they're pointing to an imaginary nightmare version of the middle ages that never existed and saying 'boy things sure sucked back then, glad things aren't like that today!' when, in fact, nearly every horrible thing they are calling attention to is in fact a horrible thing about their own time period, rather than the past. A GLISTENING HODOR posted:Can't find a Dune thread but I figure one of you would know: Yeah, Paul's first child with Chani gets killed by the Sardaukar when they're sent to Arrakis. It's been some time since I read the books, which I should rectify because I adore them, but I forget if OG Leto II ever gets referenced or mentioned in the ancestor memories of Leto II Wormboi.
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Nov 19, 2021 09:00
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To be fair, it's not like the book comes with a foreword that says "this is what the middle ages were like". Everything from the described outfits to the tech in general (excluding firearms) is much more very late medieval / early modern than actually medieval, with some random bits that are more taken from antiquity, like the whole Qarth / Ghis situation. All fantasy worldbuilding has to pick and choose some things from real history, and honestly without certain factors (Rome, firearms, age of sail which in turn was caused by the collapse of the Mongol empire, firearms etc) the medieval and early modern aesthetic doesn't really make sense in any case. You could theoretically come up with detailed explanations for how exactly every facet of your world came about, but not even Tolkien went that far.
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Nov 19, 2021 09:12
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Yes except like I said earlier, 'that's just how it was back then' is what he and his fans fall back on to excuse certain creative decisions he has made. That Westeros is based primarily upon - supposed - historical realism rather than using historical trappings as a narrative device/framework is not a fan assumption, it's the explicit word of God.
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Nov 19, 2021 10:03
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:
im absolutely certain that that is the point
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Nov 19, 2021 10:32
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:Can't find a Dune thread but I figure one of you would know: IIRC there's about half a dozen total sentences referring to the kid spread out over three separate scenes, so it's a real blink and you miss it deal. I've read Dune several times and every time when I get to that part it's still "Oh yeah that happened."
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Nov 19, 2021 12:16
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jsoh posted:im absolutely certain that that is the point Yeah GRRM grew up in the part of New Jersey that's directly next to New York City and then worked entertainment industry poo poo for decades. Most of what goes on in ASoIaF is pretty much straight out of those milieus right down to the horrific sexual politics and byzantine noble hierarchies. Mr. "I've only written seven words in High Valyrian" wasn't spending the 90s doing in-depth medieval/Renaissance research. He was absolutely writing what he knew in a setting where the politically incorrect poo poo could manifest as an "uncanny fantasy" element and hide behind the "lol old timey poo poo sure sucked right?" wall. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 12:46
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jsoh posted:im absolutely certain that that is the point Which is why he has explicitly claimed that he based the Dothraki on actual historical peoples despite the fact they have nothing in common with those historical peoples and everything in common with racist depictions of them? And I mean whatever the intent, 'realism' is absolutely something the fandom has used to excuse stuff. Whether or not Martin intended it, many if not most of the audience absolutely sees the series - the obvious fantastical elements aside - as a depiction of 'how it was.' EDIT: I mean to clarify, I agree he also intended allegory. Dany's Adventures in Iraq are obvious. I'm saying he tries to have it both ways. The books are a 'realistic' depiction of the middle ages when it benefits him, and obviously ahistorical fiction when it doesn't.
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Nov 19, 2021 13:02
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saying your insanely racist pastiche is historical is a pretty good play imo if you are pretending that your work with contemporary political messaging is actually all about history. since it is saying that being horrifically racist about foreign people you dont understand is also a thing of the past. i think in the case of the dothraki grrm is just being a lovely white guy from jersey tho not some mastermind
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Nov 19, 2021 13:06
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That ACOUP article about the Dothraki makes many good points, but the whole "supposed to represent real people" angle is based on one interview where GRRM said something like "Dothraki are based on horse cultures like Mongols and Plains Indians". He never claimed to have done any research, here never claimed that any specific aspect is realistic, just an inspiration. Of course you can still criticize him for repeating racist stereotypes, but the claim that he thinks real world cultures are like that is just unfounded. The argument that GRRM based the actual politics on entertainment industry society is interesting and pretty plausible at first sight. It would also explain how many of the central characters are obsessed with looks.
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Nov 19, 2021 13:18
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Yeah, I'm not into the whole "I know more about Medieval/Renaissance society than George and this is not how it went," discussion, because that's not the point. Ice and Fire is supposed to be exaggerated and fake and more "modern" because like exaggerated sci-fi settings that are used to impart ideas to contemporary readers, Ice and Fire created an exaggerated world about class and power so that he can show it to readers and say "hey, remind you of anything?" I'm sure he used entertainment industry politics, but the messages of power and class in Ice and Fire is a pretty universal message in this world.
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Nov 19, 2021 15:13
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That’s probably fair. At the same time it’s been 11 loving years since the last book so gently caress him.
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Nov 19, 2021 15:13
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I talked to a prison librarian the other day, and she told me two of the things that caused her the most trouble was contemporary artists not releasing their music on cd and trying to convince the inmates that Grrum hasn't written anything in over a decade
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Nov 19, 2021 15:28
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Yeah. It's lovely, and super lovely that he's either lying or not indicating that it's more of a massive undertaking than he wants anyone (including himself) to believe. I think the latter is true and feeds into the former. I think he has progress, but Feast and Dance created a new standard of prose and progression for Winds and Dream, and that those books need to be at least 2k pages each to finish the series. On the other hand, I do appreciate that he's using what clout he's earned and maintained to help push other writers, other peoples' projects, and other industry people into the spotlight. Usually when authors get famous and try to promote someone else, they'll push out some lovely apprentice whose books never sell, then they'll just disappear- if they do anything like that at all.
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Nov 19, 2021 16:18
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jsoh posted:saying your insanely racist pastiche is historical is a pretty good play imo if you are pretending that your work with contemporary political messaging is actually all about history. since it is saying that being horrifically racist about foreign people you dont understand is also a thing of the past. i think in the case of the dothraki grrm is just being a lovely white guy from jersey tho not some mastermind Yeah he definitely wasn't deliberately writing fantasy Mein Kampf, but he still hits a lovely racist take on everyone outside of Westeros and doubles down when called out. Like, my girlfriend is from Kazakhstan. She loathes the dothraki, especially show dothraki, because turns out the steppe gets loving cold. Cold enough you can't spend all your life riding a really fast fantasy horse shirtless in leather bondage gear. Even in summer. They also cast the dothraki as just "anyone brown" which comes off really racist. Like, quoting myself for a photo of us and even my pale ashkenazi rear end is darker than her. But nah, anyone barbaric enough to be from the steppe must be shirtless and dark-skinned because otherwise, they'd look Gurm is also best buds with that white supremacist swedish couple so there is that. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 16:23
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Also just generally while the Dothraki don't track well at all onto any real life people, they do track incredibly well onto racist depictions of native Americans and central Asian people.
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Nov 19, 2021 16:37
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Yeah he definitely wasn't deliberately writing fantasy Mein Kampf, but he still hits a lovely racist take on everyone outside of Westeros and doubles down when called out. Like, my girlfriend is from Kazakhstan. She loathes the dothraki, especially show dothraki, because turns out the steppe gets loving cold. Cold enough you can't spend all your life riding a really fast fantasy horse shirtless in leather bondage gear. Even in summer. They also cast the dothraki as just "anyone brown" which comes off really racist. Like, quoting myself for a photo of us and even my pale ashkenazi rear end is darker than her. The way current day Kazakhs look might have something to do with Russian colonization, soviet collectivization and subsequent famine
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Nov 19, 2021 16:57
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Mr. Grapes! posted:The maneuver that the Northmen pull off during the TV show Battle of the Bastards would only work with highly trained elite footmen, rather than the rabble that they are supposed to be. I'm okay with it. I don't think I've ever seen a 'realistic' ancient battle on film. Typically we get invincible horses that can just roll over anything and absolutely confused mishmash melees with no one wearing helmets. I think the closest we've ever got was during a short sequence in the HBO Rome TV show where the legions are fighting in a proper line and rotating men. One of the hotheads runs out to do the typical Hollywood poo poo and gets chewed out by his centurion. It's an everlasting crime that Rome was as good as it was and we got so little of it while ASOIAF ran for 8 seasons and rarely matched Rome's quality. Even with the stuff that wasn't historically accurate it was just a good show to watch. Edgar Allen Ho posted:I was never clear on if movie Frodo was faking the injury when the troll gets him or not. I always read the scene as one of two things: 1. The mithril caused him to get wedged between the spearhead and a prong because hobbits are small and the side prong would hurt like hell and he'd be bruised but otherwise survive the blunt force trauma. 2. The troll's stab was off enough that the spear glances down his side instead of ripping him open and he's not killed by the force because the spearhead hits the stone behind it and there's enough space between the wall and cross bar(?) that he isn't crushed, but again suffers a very painful hit to the gut. Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Spoilers for Stormlight Archive: You're missing/ignoring that culture's leadership considers actions like that to be a good thing. That it happens and people react the way they do is kinda the point.
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Nov 19, 2021 16:57
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Whizzing Wizard posted:The way current day Kazakhs look might have something to do with Russian colonization, soviet collectivization and subsequent famine Kazakhs have always been pretty diverse, but yeah, that picture is definitely not a typical look for an ethnic kazakh person living a steppe lifestyle.
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Nov 19, 2021 17:06
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Evil Fluffy posted:You're missing/ignoring that culture's leadership considers actions like that to be a good thing. That it happens and people react the way they do is kinda the point. There's a difference between a situation where "Dalinar/protagonists are afraid to snap back for logical reasons" and "I as a reader can see that the author is making characters not snap back because he's afraid he'll lose control of how the narrative views the antagonist." The fact that Sadeas can just say "Oh, look at Mr. Crazy Man" around other politicians and Dalinar/Adolin/others can't come out and say or even think internally to say "Oh, look at the big treasonous coward whose human chaff fought more bravely than him or his soldiers" around those same politicians to gain even some temporary leverage is a noticeable gap to me, especially when the story keeps outright saying that certain protagonist characters are witty or clever. I like Stormlight a lot, but there are issues with it like there are issues with any story. The example I'm talking about was fresh in my mind and shared some common threads with what we were talking about.
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Nov 19, 2021 18:24
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Whizzing Wizard posted:I talked to a prison librarian the other day, and she told me two of the things that caused her the most trouble was contemporary artists not releasing their music on cd and trying to convince the inmates that Grrum hasn't written anything in over a decade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-CUJxIQkpA
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Nov 19, 2021 18:25
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