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MarcusSA posted:Literally anything vs what they are making her do now. She did that but people ignored it because it doesn’t play into a dumb conspiracy
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Nov 21, 2021 03:39
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Judakel posted:People were demanding to see that she was alive, so the government made her go to some dumb event. I like how "she is alive" is good enough for the tankies (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 21, 2021 03:40
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Despera posted:I like how "she is alive" is good enough for the tankies You were asking for proof of life, I believe. I guess you're a tankie, then. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 21, 2021 03:41
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Judakel posted:You were asking for proof of life, I believe. I guess you're a tankie, then. Nope I wasn't. It would have been beyond stupid to kill her.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:42
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Despera posted:I like how "she is alive" is good enough for the tankies What’s good enough for you to demonstrate she is alive and not being forced to recite/do things?
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Nov 21, 2021 03:42
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mawarannahr posted:What’s good enough for you to demonstrate she is alive and not being forced to recite/do things? She could comment on her post.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:43
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Wait so you guys satisfied with this appearence accept her post retracting the rape as valid? That's the only way this isn't nefarious.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:44
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Despera posted:Nope I wasn't. It would have been beyond stupid to kill her. Then I must've misinterpreted when you were talking about how proof of life works.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:44
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Judakel posted:Then I must've misinterpreted when you were talking about how proof of life works. I said the screen shots/emails were a lovely way for proof of life. They were.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:45
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There's literally nothing that could prove she's not being influenced in private or simply intimidated by a chilling effect. It's entirely up to you what you think is happening here. A lot of people's theories sound like paranoid fantasy to me, but it's not like they can be properly disproven. Personally, I think people are overplaying nefarious Chinese governmental handlers and undercounting the simple smothering effect of sexism. The government doesn't have to send someone round to intimidate her if her story is confined to the rumor mill where she can't defend herself from people's inevitable darkest assumptions. Standard apologia for relationship rape: "gold-digger", "doing it for attention", "just a messy breakup", etc. I don't know any of this to be fact, but it feels like the most economical way to smother this embarrassing story. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 04:04
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Red and Black posted:This is literally the same mindset that led everyone to think Jack Ma had been "disappeared" when he was just laying low after his company got slapped with anti-trust action. It's also the same mindset that led people to think Lee Bo, Gui Minhai, Zhang Zhiping, Lin Rongji, Liu Shihui, Duan Weihong, Ren Zhiqiang, He Jiankui and Gao Zhisheng (to name but a few) had been disappeared. Just sayin'
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Nov 21, 2021 04:48
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We will see if she is allowed to attend matches or functions outside China and speak freely then I suppose
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Nov 21, 2021 04:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like what? Send her friends a photo privately where she’s messing around with a cat? Maybe she could talk to her family, coworkers, fans, or the WTA? Or post from her own social media accounts? We have no idea who took the photos/video or how they only wound up in the hands of the Chinese state media. Other than the fact that they obtained it from a freshly-made duplicate WeChat account made for the sole purpose of passing along proof of life photos: https://twitter.com/taromilkcake/status/1461735374028513290 Either she's under government detention, or she randomly decided to go radio silent and retract her accusation in such a way as to give her family and fans the impression that she's under government detention. Coincidentally, she made the decision at the same time the CCP scrubbed all online conversations about her accusation.
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Nov 21, 2021 04:53
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I've been challenging myself to try and question some of my western-media-informed assumptions about China and Chinese politics recently, but I have to say that the reaction to this story by a lot of voices I'd been considering reasonable has been pretty gross. Not even in terms of the "was she reprimanded by the state, and how much" question, but just a lot of the reactions to her story itself boiling down to tired, misogynist tropes: That her post reads like an upset teenager, that she was just jealous of his wife, that she's making a big deal over a trivial event because of a personal grudge. Even if the situation only goes as far as the strict facts of: "She made a blog post about a vaguely predatory-sounding affair she had with a much older man, who then invited her to his home years later and pressured her into sex, which was then removed and discussion censored", that's still pretty big injustice. I wish people would at least condemn that much, even if they want to be critical of the west's use of the event. This and the Tara Reade story feel like two sides of the same coin, where a lot of left-leaning people I know - within varying definitions of 'left-leaning' - don't really seem to empathize with victims of sexist power dynamics at all, but only use the aesthetics of the issue to show disgust for people they already don't like. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 04:58
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Honestly just keeping her radio silent would be less weird than whatever this weird 'she totally can talk freely, see here are some pictures' poo poo where the source of the media is literally state media. Well maybe not less weird, really any option other than 'she goes about her life, as normal' is going to look deeply hosed up. Cease to Hope posted:There's literally nothing that could prove she's not being influenced in private or simply intimidated by a chilling effect. It's entirely up to you what you think is happening here. A lot of people's theories sound like paranoid fantasy to me, but it's not like they can be properly disproven. The latter isn't any better, and especially when the government was already complicit in removing her ability to defend herself or communicate her side of the story.
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Nov 21, 2021 04:58
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je1 healthcare posted:Maybe she could talk to her family, coworkers, fans, or the WTA? Or post from her own social media accounts? We have no idea who took the photos/video or how they only wound up in the hands of the Chinese state media. Other than the fact that they obtained it from a freshly-made duplicate WeChat account made for the sole purpose of passing along proof of life photos: Who is reito 🦋 1218公投四個不同意 and why should we listen to them more than any Qanon saying jfk jr is going to kill mike pence?
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Nov 21, 2021 05:00
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Who is reito 🦋 1218公投四個不同意 and why should we listen to them more than any Qanon saying jfk jr is going to kill mike pence? I'm seeing the same info posted in other Chinese-language forums. https://www.reddit.com/r/China_irl/...D%AD%E5%B8%A52/ https://www.reddit.com/r/China_irl/comments/qxixt2/%E5%BD%AD%E5%B8%85%E5%BE%AE%E4%BF%A1%E5%8F%91%E5%B8%83%E7%94%9F%E6%B4%BB%E7%85%A7/ Anyone want to look up the weChat account then? The name is "彭帅2"
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Nov 21, 2021 05:05
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I'm getting "user not found"
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Nov 21, 2021 05:07
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je1 healthcare posted:I'm seeing the same info posted in other Chinese-language forums. That reddit link says “remark names” show up there, instead of user names. So that is just the name the friend has in their address book, instead of being the username. But now she’s appeared in public anyway. Which feels like it proves she is in fact alive and not imprisoned. Not everything that happens in China is a big fun spy movie.
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Nov 21, 2021 05:14
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Well then Peng obviously deleted her own burner account because she is obviously not under any legal duress. It might seem strange that they bothered to blur our the date printed on the door, but fortunately they remembered to blurt out the dates, as one does at dinner in a state-owned restaurant: https://twitter.com/HuXijin_GT/status/1462077244243804170 https://twitter.com/6699xundaozhe/status/1462135384478044168
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Nov 21, 2021 05:21
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:
Oh totally  I don’t think anyone thought she was dead but people do think she was and still is being censored by the state and not actually allowed to do whatever she wants. https://mobile.twitter.com/elisewho/status/1462217602663542788?t=JzEo4l3Uy0sswt5-FX6PQA&s=19 MarcusSA fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 05:22
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je1 healthcare posted:Well then Peng obviously deleted her own burner account because she is obviously not under any legal duress. Is the idea here she was being held in Beihai Park? And that is the base of ccp operations? It’s like... a rock garden. was she held behind the decorative dragon wall?
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Nov 21, 2021 05:34
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Mirello posted:Can someone in this thread explain what exactly detained or disappeared means to them? She's appearing in public. What could she do to prove that she's ok, that you all wouldn't just say is with a gun to her back? If the Chinese state was trying to disappear her, they've evidently done a sht job, by letting her post and go out in public. She should be allowed to leave china and give an interview with journalists about her abuser and her treatment at the hands of the CPC. That shouldn't be a problem right?
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Nov 21, 2021 05:37
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Magic Underwear posted:She should be allowed to leave china and give an interview with journalists about her abuser and her treatment at the hands of the CPC. That shouldn't be a problem right? I haven’t followed this issue as carefully as others, but does she want to do this? I assume it must have said so in an article or social media post you’ve read.
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Nov 21, 2021 05:39
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Nov 21, 2021 05:47
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loving tennis.
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Nov 21, 2021 05:50
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mawarannahr posted:I haven’t followed this issue as carefully as others, but does she want to do this? I assume it must have said so in an article or social media post you’ve read. She made one statement that was deleted after half an hour along with her socials and any mention of her by everyone else on the Chinese internet, I somehow doubt she felt her voice was sufficiently heard. In the fantasy world where what has happened since then has been in no way coercive, what changed her mind about speaking out between the original post and now? Everything about the situation and the past behavior of the CPC points toward coercion.
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Nov 21, 2021 05:56
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Magic Underwear posted:She made one statement that was deleted after half an hour along with her socials and any mention of her by everyone else on the Chinese internet, I somehow doubt she felt her voice was sufficiently heard. In the fantasy world where what has happened since then has been in no way coercive, what changed her mind about speaking out between the original post and now? Everything about the situation and the past behavior of the CPC points toward coercion. I believe what she says but I’m still not sure means she wants to leave the country and talk to CNN about it for a whole range of possible personal reasons. I won’t try to read her mind as a survivor, but from an athletics perspective, China is still the world’s largest country fighting for COVID zero — athletes in the west face serious risks of lifetime disability due to the uncontrolled pandemic. There are a lot of reasons someone wouldn’t want to leave the country, so insisting on it as the only thing proving she is acting if her own will is a little confused IMO.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:03
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Magic Underwear posted:She made one statement that was deleted after half an hour along with her socials and any mention of her by everyone else on the Chinese internet, I somehow doubt she felt her voice was sufficiently heard. In the fantasy world where what has happened since then has been in no way coercive, what changed her mind about speaking out between the original post and now? Everything about the situation and the past behavior of the CPC points toward coercion. There is a difference between government bullying and pressure and weird fantasy “Hillary Clinton is in prison, what we saw was a duplicate clone” Style weird rear end stories about what people think China is like. She is both probably not having a great time right now and also not being held in a lake or having her cat be part of some government staged photo
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Nov 21, 2021 06:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:There is a difference between government bullying and pressure and weird fantasy “Hillary Clinton is in prison, what we saw was a duplicate clone” Style weird rear end stories about what people think China is like. Because it's so absurd to believe China would detain its own civilians without charge because they criticised members of the regime?
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Nov 21, 2021 06:18
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Magic Underwear posted:She should be allowed to leave china and give an interview with journalists about her abuser and her treatment at the hands of the CPC. That shouldn't be a problem right? rofl dude, nobody wants to leave china and get covid in america/europe. so bizarre. so literally anything she does / says in china is unreliable/ under duress? but her original statement was in china, and is therefore unreliable right? people in this thread are amazing. the amount of magical thinking is unbelievable. you'll literally disbelieve what's right in front of your eyes . in order to believe your priors. it's crazy how fast its gone from "she's in a reeducation camp/ dead" to "shes allowed out of her house and to give public statements, but they're coached" do you all who have made that leap not see how totally different those two situations are? but as long as you can somehow spin it out in your head that china is a totalitarian hellhole, it all makes sense to you, no matter how many contradictions there are. I don't deny that she was censored. censorship and limits to freedom of speech are a rule everywhere. I'd be censored here if I posted about my intention to harm other people or the american government. The chinese govt goes further, and does not believe that social media is the place to hash out discussions of sexual assault / abusive relationships. Something I happen to agree with. I hope she gets justice for whatever happened with that guy, and he sounds like a real piece of poo poo. The way this has been propagandized in the west is insane. lol, like people in this thread have no idea how common "dissent" is in china. I live in bj and hear and talk about how incompetent the local government is all the time. nobody's scared of "reeducation camps" the worst thing that might happen is you'd get a call from the censors saying to take something down (which is what I think happened to peng). My wife is a big keyboard warrior, always fighting in the comments about women's rights, discrimination against foreigners, animal rights. she's never been censored or anything like that. the "red lines" are very clear, and nobody crosses them. It's similar to how (i assume, I haven't personally experienced this) in western europe you cant really post pro nazi poo poo without having a big problem. just because in america people can post lies and poo poo up every single discussion, doesn't mean every single country needs to allow that.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:25
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Mirello posted:I don't deny that she was censored. censorship and limits to freedom of speech are a rule everywhere. I'd be censored here if I posted about my intention to harm other people or the american government. But that's not what she did, and if you made a post on these forums about how you had been sexually abused, your post would not be deleted and the American government would not suddenly restrict your access. Mirello posted:The chinese govt goes further, and does not believe that social media is the place to hash out discussions of sexual assault / abusive relationships. Something I happen to agree with.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:There is a difference between government bullying and pressure and weird fantasy “Hillary Clinton is in prison, what we saw was a duplicate clone” Style weird rear end stories about what people think China is like. She is both probably not having a great time right now and also not being held in a lake or having her cat be part of some government staged photo No one here is speculating that she's in a literal gulag. Fan Bingbing was detained for 3 months in a resort, over what should have been a straightforward case of tax dodging. But the CCP detained her and ordered the media to squelch the story because they're inept and insanely paranoid about image management that they can't let high-profile legal cases play out in the public sphere of consciousness, unless they themselves kick it off. Mirello posted:
You realize neither you or your wife are international celebrities with massive social media followings, right? Do you think that might make a difference in whether the CCP sees you as a threat to power?
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Nov 21, 2021 06:33
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Mirello posted:rofl dude, nobody wants to leave china and get covid in america/europe. so bizarre. This reads like weird performance art.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:34
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mawarannahr posted:I believe what she says but I’m still not sure means she wants to leave the country and talk to CNN about it for a whole range of possible personal reasons. I won’t try to read her mind as a survivor, but from an athletics perspective, China is still the world’s largest country fighting for COVID zero — athletes in the west face serious risks of lifetime disability due to the uncontrolled pandemic. There are a lot of reasons someone wouldn’t want to leave the country, so insisting on it as the only thing proving she is acting if her own will is a little confused IMO. Is this some kind of joke? Can anyone be this naive? She accused a retired high party official of sex crimes, but since the party is notoriously accepting of criticism her disappearance must be simple coincidence, oh except the comprehensive internet blackout of her name and her accusations, that they can't deny. But other than that she's free to rest at home and send bizarre proof of life videos directly to state media outlets and talk to no one else, as a normal person often does of their own free will. I'd love for you to come up with a compelling narrative that explains these facts that doesn't involve coercion. The point I am trying to make is that I would not trust any statement supposedly made by her unless it was made outside china, and once her safety is guaranteed giving interviews to a free press would be consistent with the bravery that made her post the accusations in the first place and also one of the only ways to protect her family from reprisals.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:41
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je1 healthcare posted:No one here is speculating that she's in a literal gulag. Fan Bingbing was detained for 3 months in a resort, over what should have been a straightforward case of tax dodging. But the CCP detained her and ordered the media to squelch the story because they're inept and insanely paranoid about image management that they can't let high-profile legal cases play out in the public sphere of consciousness, unless they themselves kick it off. rofl, this has to be some of the funniest poo poo that I've seen. I know in the west the concept of a rich person / celebrity actually being punished for their crimes is insane, but it's actually a feature of good government. I wannna frame this post. you know in america (land of the free) people are sent to prisons like rikers, for months and sometimes years before they've ever been declared guilty in a court of law? luckily though, rich people can just pay bail, or if their lawyers are good enough, never go through the process at all. I'm happy that in CHina the rule of law applies even to rich people and celebrities, something that is obviously not true in America. in before this post is quoted and I'm probated for "whataboutism". yes I'm comparing america and China. I live in china (and have for many years) and I'm american. I assume most posters in this thread are american. this is how we discuss ethics, by comparing different situations. if china is a totalitarian dictatorship because they "detain" or "dissapear" people, then it shouldnt be singled out if america does it too. especially since america is the one (internationally) doing the singling out.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:42
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Mirello posted:rofl, this has to be some of the funniest poo poo that I've seen. I know in the west the concept of a rich person / celebrity actually being punished for their crimes is insane, but it's actually a feature of good government. I wannna frame this post. you know in america (land of the free) people are sent to prisons like rikers, for months and sometimes years before they've ever been declared guilty in a court of law? luckily though, rich people can just pay bail, or if their lawyers are good enough, never go through the process at all. I'm happy that in CHina the rule of law applies even to rich people and celebrities, something that is obviously not true in America. Speaking out about rape by a member of the government is a crime...?
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Nov 21, 2021 06:48
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Kchama posted:Speaking out about rape by a member of the government is a crime...? Well apparently it shouldn't be handled in public at a minimum, because...  Also ironic to go off on celebrities and the wealthy getting off easy, since that pretty much explains any high-ranking CCP member that ever commits a crime.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:52
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Honestly I think the most straightforward explanation for her behavior is she received pushback for the statement she made from some social force (maybe the state, maybe her social circle, something like that) and decided trying to get justice wasn't going to be worth it. Like that absolutely loving sucks, but it's not a China is an authoritarian hellhole thing, it's a patriarchy and rape culture thing.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:55
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Mirello posted:rofl, this has to be some of the funniest poo poo that I've seen. I know in the west the concept of a rich person / celebrity actually being punished for their crimes is insane, but it's actually a feature of good government. I wannna frame this post. you know in america (land of the free) people are sent to prisons like rikers, for months and sometimes years before they've ever been declared guilty in a court of law? luckily though, rich people can just pay bail, or if their lawyers are good enough, never go through the process at all. I'm happy that in CHina the rule of law applies even to rich people and celebrities, something that is obviously not true in America. Do....you think it's rare for Hollywood celebrities to get charged for tax evasion? Because it's not, there's just no weird performance art of making them disappear and squelching all news reports about it. Making Willy Nelson or Martha Stewart vanish for several months would probably get them a lot of attention and sympathy they otherwise wouldn't deserve! But yes, thank goodness Chinese rich people can be denied legal council in accordance with chinese law, that really helps ease any concern that they aren't just moving to enrich other billionaires with tighter party connections. And again, China is being "singled out" because this is the China thread for talking about things happening in China.
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Nov 21, 2021 07:01
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