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Trazz posted:There is nothing lovely about cutting ties with members of a white supremacist party Trazz posted:Voting for a white supremacist party is "utterly meaningless" and totally something that good people do, right? You want to know the best way to boost white supremacy support in the US? By ostracizing nearly half of the country based on a vague category that they vote for every 2-4 years and nothing else. Kalit fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 05:08
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LLCoolJD posted:Here in Virginia those white supremacists just elected a black woman as the lieutenant governor and a Cuban as the attorney general. Did anyone ever ask those people what they think about the Southern Strategy? readingatwork posted:Not everyone who’s voted for a Republican is a full-on Nazi. Lots of them are just kind of dumb or don’t know anything about the GOP beyond “they’re the party of fiscal responsibility right?” There’s also a lot of people who just don’t know anything about progressive ideas because nobody’s bothered to explain it to them which makes them susceptible to right wing talking points. It’s a lot more complicated than just “all Republican voters are evil”. Actually I'm saying that it's either stupidity or else it's malice. But of course, it's not because the GOP has been spending the last 60ish years running on the Southern Strategy, it's because progressives simply haven't said the right magic words to them(assuming they don't get discredited and/or assassinated by US intelligence first that is)
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Nov 22, 2021 05:11
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LLCoolJD posted:Here in Virginia those white supremacists just elected a black woman as the lieutenant governor and a Cuban as the attorney general. This is insane "the party can't support white supremacy they have a black person in it" it requires ignoring basically everything they've ever done. Kalit posted:You want to know the best way to boost white supremacy support in the US? By ostracizing nearly half of the country based on a vague category that they vote for every 2-4 years and nothing else. If shunning a person makes them more white supremacist then it wasn't wrong to shun them in the first place, this just seems like going out of the way to blame everything on not the right. That said I don't think kicking ever R voter out of your life has much of an effect but some things like telling Grandpa he's a piece of poo poo when he talks about gay people does seem to work, I'm sure there's a line there and it's different for each person.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:13
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LLCoolJD posted:Here in Virginia those white supremacists just elected a black woman as the lieutenant governor and a Cuban as the attorney general. Fox News isn't racist or sexist, have you seen all those Diamond and Silk and Candace Owens segments?!
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Nov 22, 2021 05:17
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Kalit posted:You want to know the best way to boost white supremacy support in the US? By ostracizing nearly half of the country based on a vague category that they vote for every 2-4 years and nothing else. "By talking about how it's raining, you're the one making it rain!" How about you address the decades-long Southern Strategy, and explain how a party that has been deliberately catering to white supremacists for votes is not a white supremacist party?
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Nov 22, 2021 05:21
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Joe Biden is also a white supremacist so it's possible some of you may need to shun yourselves
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Nov 22, 2021 05:21
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socialsecurity posted:If shunning a person makes them more white supremacist then it wasn't wrong to shun them in the first place, this just seems like going out of the way to blame everything on not the right. That said I don't think kicking ever R voter out of your life has much of an effect but some things like telling Grandpa he's a piece of poo poo when he talks about gay people does seem to work, I'm sure there's a line there and it's different for each person. Trazz posted:"By talking about how it's raining, you're the one making it rain!"  Do you not know that shunning/ostracizing humans because of X can push them further towards X? I feel like that's basic psychology, there's plenty of studies on this. For a single, easy example, you can see https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430220917215. From the concluding remarks:quote:Taken together, we believe that the present studies show that social exclusion, especially in combination with the individual trait rejection sensitivity, may play an important role in who becomes radicalized. Moreover, the mechanism seems to be independent of ideological content. In the preventive work on radicalization, policy makers must appreciate the impact of social factors in the radicalization process. This article highlights how basic human needs for affiliation and belongingness may push individuals in a destructive direction. We side with Moghaddam (2005) in stating that we need to focus on the individuals who are still on the ground floor and on preventive work, rather than on those already at the top of the staircase.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:22
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Kalit posted:
Then they'd just be proving me right to have shunned them. "I doubled-down on being a Nazi because you shunned me for being a Nazi, this is YOUR fault and not mine!" I mean, you've already been cut out from my life, so go ahead and triple-down on being a Nazi just to try to spite someone who just cut you out of their life for the sake of their mental health, thus validating their decision to do so! Also you still didn't address the whole Southern Strategy thing. Something tells me you're still going to try to shame me instead of addressing that, though.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:31
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Kalit posted:
So if you aren't super nice to a racist it's your fault they get even more racist?
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Nov 22, 2021 05:34
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Willa Rogers posted:
What are you getting at with this phrasing? Graham-Cassidy came down to the wire. You can't just flippantly reduce us to dogs like it's something that won't happen. Also, you think I don't give a poo poo what happens to Medicare? I am on Medicare and have had close calls with delayed care fighting through denials and appeals. I have friends that aren't with us anymore and ones who have endured horrific abuse from the state and their mercenaries they hire to run these misery factories. We can't fight to improve the lives of others if we are forgotten in some hole. We have to convince others we matter in order to just survive on the most fundamental and literal level, and it's so. loving. tiring.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:37
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Trazz posted:Actually I'm saying that it's either stupidity or else it's malice. But of course, it's not because the GOP has been spending the last 60ish years running on the Southern Strategy, it's because progressives simply haven't said the right magic words to them(assuming they don't get discredited and/or assassinated by US intelligence first that is) Actually it’s basic class politics. Republicans appeal to people with money (and those that think they will have it in the future) because their goal is the reinforcement of economic and social hierarchies. It’s in the financial best interest of an upper middle class small business tyrant to vote R because they wouldn’t benefit from left wing policies. So I agree, you can’t get most of these people because at the end of the day they’re just looking for excuses to justify their lifestyles. That said there’s a bunch of dumbasses at the bottom of the social ladder (let’s call them temporarily embarrassed millionaires) you might be able to appeal to with the right economic policies. It’s a long shot, particularly once they’ve bought into overt white nationalism, but I think it’s possible. Unfortunately Democrat’s tend to ignore these people in favor upper-middle class POC who will jump ship the second they smell anything left wing.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:38
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socialsecurity posted:So if you aren't super nice to a racist it's your fault they get even more racist? Please tell me where I said this? Unless you think everyone who votes for any Republican is a racist, regardless of everything else. In which case, you should probably realize that the Democratic party isn't great with dismantling systemic racism....
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Nov 22, 2021 05:42
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edit: not worth it
Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 05:43
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readingatwork posted:Actually it’s basic class politics. Republicans appeal to people with money (and those that think they will have it in the future) because their goal is the reinforcement of economic and social hierarchies. It’s in the financial best interest of an upper middle class small business tyrant to vote R because they wouldn’t benefit from left wing policies. So I agree, you can’t get most of these people because at the end of the day they’re just looking for excuses to justify their lifestyles. Spoiler alert: They still don't want those economic policies if the "wrong people" benefit from them; otherwise we'd have them by now.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:46
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Kalit posted:Please tell me where I said this? Unless you think everyone who votes for any Republican is a racist, regardless of everything else. In which case, you should probably realize that the Democratic party isn't great with dismantling systemic racism.... Kalit posted:You want to know the best way to boost white supremacy support in the US? By ostracizing nearly half of the country based on a vague category that they vote for every 2-4 years and nothing else. Kalit posted:
The only way your third quote works is if someone was already racist, or X as you mention, so shunning someone for being racist makes them more racist, which in the second quote you are implying that shunning people for being racist is boosting white supremacy. Doesn't seem very confusing at all. No idea why you are bringing Democrats up maybe as some pointless deflection to call me a lib supporter instead of backing up your argument here.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:48
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Trazz posted:Spoiler alert: They still don't want those economic policies if the "wrong people" benefit from them; otherwise we'd have them by now. No we wouldn't. That's not how our system works
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Nov 22, 2021 05:50
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^^^ also thatTrazz posted:Spoiler alert: They still don't want those economic policies if the "wrong people" benefit from them; otherwise we'd have them by now. For many this is true. But some aren’t that far down the rabbit hole and can be bought off with policies that promise them tangible rewards. But I agree that these would be edge cases though, which is why I generally advocate appealing to non-voters who’ve checked out of the system before trying to peel away Republicans.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:53
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Spoke Lee posted:What are you getting at with this phrasing? Graham-Cassidy came down to the wire. You can't just flippantly reduce us to dogs like it's something that won't happen.  I get it. I come from a family that has advocated for civil rights for people with disabilities for the last 60 years.You and I just have different approaches on the best ways of dealing with it politically. I understand where you're coming from but after a half-century of trying to change within the system I know its failures as well its successes, and I've chosen to approach from an outside approach after finding the change-from-within tactics to ultimately be futile. I truly believe that it'll take a leftist movement withholding its votes from Democrats running at the federal level to effect meaningful change, but I can see why you don't. We'll see how each approach pans out in the coming years.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:54
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socialsecurity posted:The only way your third quote works is if someone was already racist, or X as you mention, so shunning someone for being racist makes them more racist, which in the second quote you are implying that shunning people for being racist is boosting white supremacy. Doesn't seem very confusing at all.  I thought it was obvious that I meantKalit posted:
And I brought up the Democratic party as an insinuation that if you think everyone who votes for a Republican is a racist simply because of the party they vote for, you could also make the same argument for everyone who votes for a Democrat. And no, I do not use "lib" as an insult. Kalit fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 05:57
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Kalit posted:And I brought up Democrats as an insinuation that if you think everyone who votes for a Republican is a racist simply because of the party they vote for, you could also make the same argument for everyone who votes for a Democrat. Oh really? What's the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy, which you still have failed to address or acknowledge in any way, despite it being well-documented historical fact?
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Nov 22, 2021 05:59
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Trazz posted:Oh really? What's the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy, which you still have failed to address or acknowledge in any way, despite it being well-documented historical fact? Wasn't the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy the uh...Southern Strategy?
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Nov 22, 2021 06:08
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the_steve posted:Wasn't the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy the uh...Southern Strategy? No, the GOP started doing it as a response to the passage of the Civil Rights Act.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:10
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the_steve posted:Wasn't the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy the uh...Southern Strategy? ...no? not at all? that was the republican strategy (centered around Richard Nixon) to pull the weird historical rich fat white southern racists from the democratic party to the republican party and it did that pretty goodly
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Nov 22, 2021 06:11
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the_steve posted:Wasn't the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy the uh...Southern Strategy? This doesn't make any sense, you know the Southern Strategy is literally a thing right?
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Nov 22, 2021 06:15
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What exactly do you mean by 'Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy'?
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Nov 22, 2021 06:20
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Ghost Leviathan posted:What exactly do you mean by 'Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy'? I mean exactly what I said.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:26
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How can you call Joe Biden a white supremacist. He beat the orange man that's all we needed to being forward 1000 years of democratic party rule!!!!!!! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 22, 2021 06:27
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the_steve posted:Wasn't the Democratic equivalent of the Southern Strategy the uh...Southern Strategy? How about you provide some evidence for this?
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Nov 22, 2021 06:30
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Zero emissions is hard anywhere outside of super small, wealthy, educated places like Switzerland and even then they're still occasionally struggling. South Australia's doing a good job of getting to that, and they have the lowest electrical rates in Australia.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:46
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Solkanar512 posted:How about you provide some evidence for this? I think they're referring to stuff like when Biden was opposed to integrated busing back in the day. Oh I'm sorry, I meant opposed to the Department of Education FORCING busing on people. Which is different and was definitely not a talking point among bigots at the time.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:56
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Still waiting!
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Nov 22, 2021 07:00
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LLCoolJD posted:Here in Virginia those white supremacists just elected a black woman as the lieutenant governor and a Cuban as the attorney general. "I'M NOT RACIST!", Thomas Jefferson yelled as he finished impregnating his
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Nov 22, 2021 07:04
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Trazz posted:I mean exactly what I said. That's not enough. What do you mean? Evidence that the Democrat are racist and use racism to benefit them electorally? (because in that case, the joke is that the Democrats are racist even when it actively hurts them electorally)
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Nov 22, 2021 07:14
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Still waiting!
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Nov 22, 2021 07:21
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stop talking past each other, please trazz, please state what you mean?
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Nov 22, 2021 07:22
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Trazz posted:I mean exactly what I said. E: meh
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Nov 22, 2021 07:29
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GreyjoyBastard posted:stop talking past each other, please I mean, the GOP has spent the last 60-ish years deliberately catering to white supremacists for votes, and is thusly a white supremacist party. Therefore, if certain posters want to assert that "both sides bad" or whatever, they need to present some equivalent to this on the Democratic side. So far this has yet to manifest. Now you're caught up.
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Nov 22, 2021 07:31
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If the policies end up systemically reinforcing white supremacy regardless, how much does it matter if one just doesn’t say the quiet part loud? That’s why I don’t think it’s a meaningful distinction. Minneapolis isn’t red, same as countless others.
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Nov 22, 2021 07:34
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Somehow I’m skeptical that these are the people the left should be courting https://twitter.com/hutchinson/status/1462508677659725832?s=21
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Nov 22, 2021 07:34
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Republican voters support Republicans -- the actual policies that Republican voters support is all over the place. Most of them support fascism only incidentally, via supporting Republicans. A vote for a party does not mean you support every crime committed by that party, and the only logically consistent endpoint of the argument that you own every crime is to not vote at all. I don't care at all if you want to poo poo on Republicans for voting that way, the reason this matters is because plenty of people would dump the fascism for something else that appeals to them. It's not the fundamental basis of what makes an "American conservative." Well, I honestly have not seen the evidence that people who vote for Republicans are as politically disengaged as you seem to paint them as, just because they don't understand politics. Very few fascists ultimately do, and those who don't are unlikely to be won over by nice words. And even if they were, the left isn't in any position to offer them anything until they gain power, and they won't gain power if they waste their time, money or energy on Republican voters. I don't believe that single-issue Republicans are any less fascist though, once you start to analyze their beliefs deeper. Usually if you're willing to throw out everything else out of the window for your pet issue, you're OK with whatever authoritarian actions taken to support your pet issue. This is nothing new either. Sedisp posted:This is some coooooomically privileged posting. I have severed every connection with the fascists in my life beyond ones I literally cannot. Since you know I have to work in the US of A. I've got more than one friend however who lives with a fascist parent that will become homeless should they sever. You didn't read that correctly. I don't think it is a sin. readingatwork posted:As someone who has relatives with lovely politics: LMAO no you wouldn’t. You’d do what everyone else on the planet does and avoid politics altogether during family gatherings before going home to roll your eyes about their awful opinions behind closed doors. Trust me, this is not exactly an uncommon situation and most people get by without needing to resort to drastic measures. It's weird how Americans think that what they're going through is what everyone else is going through. I can give you examples of even Americans cutting ties with fascists though. Most people don't have politics in the same universe of "terrible" as the GOP. And even if a fascist isn"t directly abusive to me, a member of their in-group, they sure as hell participate in the willing abuse of people who are not me through supporting that abuse.
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Nov 22, 2021 07:39
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