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Unfortunately that requires the government to see them as human, which really isn't their strong suit.
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Nov 22, 2021 00:19
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I single Morning Star on the floor of the shop with a loop of rope around it, staff watching patiently from behind the counter as Bobby Deluxe edges closer That would make it bait, a trap suggests they lure you in with custard cream hobnobs or some similar forbidden pleasure, possibly the pavlova donuts they do at the coop, and then they drop the morning star on you and you develop OK opinions on worker's rights but bad ideas about gender and other social issues.
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Nov 22, 2021 00:20
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I'm remembering that 80's sketch (Not The Nine O'Clock News?) with some dodgy looking guy going into a newsagents and picking up a porno mag and a copy of the Express, then quickly tucking the latter inside the former and hoping no-one spots it 
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Nov 22, 2021 00:53
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Starmer announcing that Labour will not throw cash at problems in a blatant attempt to appeal to the Express-reading "government spending is exactly like household spending and owing any money to a bank is bad!" gammons and oh god just  , either you know full well that macroeconomics does not work that way or you really are so obtuse you shouldn't be Leader of the Opposition.Government's job is literally to spend colossal amounts of money; what matters is where it's spent. Billions to your chums with no intention of asking for any return: bad. Investing in poo poo that benefits everyone: good. (Wet egg response: "hurr blurr, what if sumwhurr in middul?")
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Nov 22, 2021 00:56
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:There are probably a fair few qualified medical persons too who could have some sort of 'UK qualifying course' created to check they meet UK requirements. I think there is, but it's got some bullshit strings including loving with your immigration status Three of my neighbours were nurses from Ghana who couldn't afford to get their qualifications sorted, or risk not getting back in post-brexit. They all ended up leaving in early 2020 Payndz posted:Starmer announcing that Labour will not throw cash at problems in a blatant attempt to appeal to the Express-reading "government spending is exactly like household spending and owing any money to a bank is bad!" gammons and oh god just Didn't Rachel reeves have him sent on some neoliberalism indoctrination course before he went on his Tory popularity tour, because he didnt understand enough to know that evidence based policy was evil? Spangly A fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 01:24
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Convex posted:I'm remembering that 80's sketch (Not The Nine O'Clock News?) with some dodgy looking guy going into a newsagents and picking up a porno mag and a copy of the Express, then quickly tucking the latter inside the former and hoping no-one spots it That was NTNOCN, yes. For a frequently topical comedy show that ended 40 years ago, it's painfully timely. About the only jokes that have aged to irrelevance are the ones about Reginald Bosanquet.
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Nov 22, 2021 01:30
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Jedit posted:That was NTNOCN, yes. For a frequently topical comedy show that ended 40 years ago, it's painfully timely. About the only jokes that have aged to irrelevance are the ones about Reginald Bosanquet. My nan used to do tailoring for Reggie Bosanquet's mother.
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Nov 22, 2021 01:49
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Spangly A posted:I think there is, but it's got some bullshit strings including loving with your immigration status So bloody short-sighted of this crap government.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:12
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Poland is very distracted on it's eastern border, no way they could deal with Britain sending migrants in through it's west! I don't think they would stay on the Falklands very long, they'd go back to England. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 02:38
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Quite hard to go back to england from the falklands if england is not cooperating.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:48
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A band of migrants being "evacuated" to Falklands and then taking the island in a rebellion would be the most British outcome
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Nov 22, 2021 03:01
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:A band of migrants being "evacuated" to Falklands and then taking the island in a rebellion would be the most British outcome Overthrow the residents and vote to join Argentina would be the funniest outcome
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Nov 22, 2021 03:07
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forkboy84 posted:Overthrow the residents and vote to join Argentina would be the funniest outcome No, that's the residents voting to join Argentina to stop Britain from sending over refugees.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:33
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endlessmonotony posted:No, that's the residents voting to join Argentina to stop Britain from sending over refugees. Also an amazing scenario. Hope one of these does happen so we can watch bojo bungle it by sending sea faring vessels across the ocean and witness half the fleet get crippled to get rescued by the Portuguese navy.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:52
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According to YouGov, the vast majority of people under 40 voted Labour/Lib Dem in the 2019 General Election. When do these demographic shifts start impacting elections?
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Nov 22, 2021 06:59
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Never, as the Tories will consistently redraw the boundaries so an isolated Cotswold village has the same electoral weight as a London borough with 200,000 people living in it.
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Nov 22, 2021 07:56
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Ravel posted:According to YouGov, the vast majority of people under 40 voted Labour/Lib Dem in the 2019 General Election. When that demographic starts turning out at the same rate as the over-65s, which is never while everything every major political party does is only a disincentive to do so.
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Nov 22, 2021 08:09
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<44s voting LAB+LIB/LDEM more than CON is a pretty reliable fact going back to 1945 at least (and this is amongst exit poll voters, not gen pop). nonetheless, there have been Conservative postwar governments, to collective astonishment the level of polarisation by age is arguably a return to the 1966 election landslide, albeit the 1960s-1990s subsequently saw a massive decline in partisan loyalty (as measured by both likelihood of switching party votes relative to previous vote, and by the qualitative intensity of support expressed to pollsters). so that age-gradient landslide in 1966 did not hold across as strongly in the 1970s and 1980s, even as that same cohort aged there are also some really new spanners in that kind of demographic analysis: polarisation by education or urban/rural divide is stronger than ever and the CON gender advantage has flipped to a LAB gender advantage. We know there's a pattern but one could keep an open mind about how the factors are proposed to interact, I suppose ronya fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 08:58
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A lot of time has been spent on various news programmes over the weekend to discuss the migrant issue and I didn't hear a single person give any reasons for why migrants might legitimately want to come to the UK. No mention of family already here, or speaking fluent English, or having worked for us in their home country, it was all framed as coming here for our benefits or other vaguely similar suggestions. There was also lots of "well if they've been through France then they should claim assylum in France" etc with absolutely nobody pointing out that France isn't exactly friendly to refugees either and they were unable to claim in France.
Lungboy fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 09:06
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it's being raised as a dunk a la "if we hadn't left the EU we could have leveraged the Dublin Regulation; now we have even less control of movement than we had previously, because realistically we're not going to walk away from our asylum commitments either, even to purely domestic audiences, and wrangling it Australia-style* is much harder". in that frame the presumption is that said migration is not desirable and/or control of movement is more desirable * Australia is surrounded by countries who are not 1951 Refugee Convention signatories and hence are willing to cooperate with forcibly returning boat people; the UK is instead surrounded by Dublin Regulation members who have every incentive not to cooperate in recognizing a claim
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Nov 22, 2021 09:26
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Payndz posted:Starmer announcing that Labour will not throw cash at problems in a blatant attempt to appeal to the Express-reading "government spending is exactly like household spending and owing any money to a bank is bad!" gammons and oh god just Can I interest you in a dorky book about mmt?
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Nov 22, 2021 09:29
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ronya posted:<44s voting LAB+LIB/LDEM more than CON is a pretty reliable fact going back to 1945 at least (and this is amongst exit poll voters, not gen pop). nonetheless, there have been Conservative postwar governments, to collective astonishment Even if true (and yes it certainly is to some extent, something something that proverb about anyone young voting Tory has no heart and anyone old voting Labour has no head or however it goes) - a) I'm not sure it was /this/ polarised; about 80% of olds vote Tory/Brexit these days and b) the Boomer generation is a thing and there are a lot of them and c) the things that make people vote Tory (like owning houses) are concentrated in them. Politics will be interesting in about 10-20 years when the Boomers actually die off/go senile in significant numbers. Til then we're hosed and by we I mean more or less the entire First World at the very least; I don't know enough about e.g. India to comment on the age gap and its politics there. (Also d) retirees ALWAYS vote at higher rates than people of working age, because they have poo poo else to do. This also is true going back decades) feedmegin fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 09:38
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feedmegin posted:Even if true (and yes it certainly is to some extent, something something that proverb about anyone young voting Tory has no heart and anyone old voting Labour has no head or however it goes) - a) I'm not sure it was /this/ polarised; about 80% of olds vote Tory/Brexit these days and b) the Boomer generation is a thing and there are a lot of them and c) the things that make people vote Tory (like owning houses) are concentrated in them. The strongest voting correlation is with wealth and always has been iirc. It just so happens that older people tend to have more of it, so that tracks pretty strongly too. Therefore, we can solve all of our problems by simply
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Nov 22, 2021 09:55
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sebzilla posted:The strongest voting correlation is with wealth and always has been iirc. It just so happens that older people tend to have more of it, so that tracks pretty strongly too. The problem with that being the more money you have, the more likely you are to vote Tory. Yes, we could redistribute all the wealth of the rich in the UK and make everyone a millionaire. But now all those temporarily embarrassed millionaires who vote Tory are actual millionaires who vote Tory. Plus, we've got lots of people who previously didn't vote Tory because the Tories had nothing to offer them and suddenly find that now the Tories do have something to offer. Wealth redistribution is not the whole solution.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:12
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sebzilla posted:The strongest voting correlation is with wealth and always has been iirc. The YouGov polls seem to indicate it's much more strongly associated with age than with wealth. Labour loses in all income brackets and NRS social grade class.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:30
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One interesting aspect for the future (and something I think the left really fails to understand or address) is the nature of wealth in the UK. By far the largest pool of wealth in the UK is not houses or private savings, it's defined benefit pension rights of which the vast majority are public sector pension rights. Outside of a few wealthy outliers, the richest people you know in terms of true asset wealth are highly likely to be NHS employees, teachers, civil servants, local government employees etc. This is quite masked at the moment because so much of the current generation of retireds own their houses and come from an era when defined benefit pensions still existed in the private sector. But over the next 15 years or so that will stop being the case. What happens in voting when the only wealthy olds (on a millions of people, election moving scale) are retired public sector employees? (Incidentally this is also a big practical issue with many wealth tax ideas. Not an unsolvable one but it is an impediment to many of what seem like the most obvious implementations)
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Nov 22, 2021 10:32
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Lungboy posted:A lot of time has been spent on various news programmes over the weekend to discuss the migrant issue and I didn't hear a single person give any reasons for why migrants might legitimately want to come to the UK. The Home Office has researched it but refuses to release the data (because it doesn't match their narrative) quote:Home Office minister Chris Philp has claimed that accepting asylum seekers who have travelled through Europe “creates a pull factor where migrants are incentivised to undertake dangerous and illegal journeys”.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:37
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Ravel posted:The YouGov polls seem to indicate it's much more strongly associated with age than with wealth. Labour loses in all income brackets and NRS social grade class. Income and wealth are not the same thing. A pensioner on 12k a year who's paid off their mortgage is considerably wealthier than their grandkid who's on 30k but giving half of that to a landlord.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:38
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Jedit posted:Yes, we could redistribute all the wealth of the rich in the UK and make everyone a millionaire. But now all those temporarily embarrassed millionaires who vote Tory are actual millionaires who vote Tory. I don’t think the math works out on that; there is something like £200 billion in combined wealth of UK-resident billionaires. Hard to find a way to make it add up to more than £5000’a head. No doubt there is some other reason why it’s a bad idea; can’t think of one offhand though. Edit Wiki says, surprisingly to me, mean UK wealth is 130k USD, mean 290k. Whereas the US is median 70k, mean 500k. So in the US, you might actually hit that problem. radmonger fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 10:38
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Ravel posted:The YouGov polls seem to indicate it's much more strongly associated with age than with wealth. Labour loses in all income brackets and NRS social grade class. NRS has been horribly outdated for decades. We're a service economy now. The working class doesn't look like that any more.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:51
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peanut- posted:One interesting aspect for the future (and something I think the left really fails to understand or address) is the nature of wealth in the UK. Public sector pensions have been based on average career salary instead of final salary for some years now. They're not going to be wealthy in retirement unless they entered at senior management level, which drat few do and were already comfortable if they did.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:53
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They are certainly lower than the past, but career average is still enormously, many multiples more than the vast majority of private sector employees will have. "Wealthy" is relative here.
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Nov 22, 2021 10:59
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peanut- posted:They are certainly lower than the past, but career average is still enormously, many multiples more than the vast majority of private sector employees will have. "Wealthy" is relative here. I am a public sector employee and let me tell you, no, we do not get "many multiples more" than the private sector.
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Nov 22, 2021 11:19
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e: nah
ronya fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 11:39
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Jedit posted:I am a public sector employee and let me tell you, no, we do not get "many multiples more" than the private sector. This is what I mean when I say the left refuse to engage with this, people get incredibly mad when you talk about it as if you're accusing them of being a secret Tory. Nowhere does my post say that public sector pensions are wrong or the benefits need to be taken away, just that this is how things are and that it may affect future voting patterns. Because it is reality, the average UK public sector employee will receive significantly more benefit from their pension than the average private sector employee. That is just endemic to how the different types of pension work and is something the ONS can and do work out. Four-fifths of all pension wealth in the UK is held in defined benefit schemes. It's not a comment that public sector employees are all rich, it's a comment that private sector retirees of the future are going to be very poor.
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Nov 22, 2021 11:42
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https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1462705753647628289
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Nov 22, 2021 12:02
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peanut- posted:This is what I mean when I say the left refuse to engage with this, people get incredibly mad when you talk about it as if you're accusing them of being a secret Tory. Nowhere does my post say that public sector pensions are wrong or the benefits need to be taken away, just that this is how things are and that it may affect future voting patterns. If this is reality, then show your numbers. Your claims are in direct opposition to the 2012 report from the NAPF which showed public sector pensions as being lower than private sector. It's an old report, but still relevant because it dates to before the change from final salary to career average which represented a significant cut. You're not wrong that the majority of private sector workers are going to be very poor when they retire, but that's because the great majority of them don't contribute to a personal pension. For public sector workers it's automatic unless you opt out.
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Nov 22, 2021 12:11
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It's interesting for all the various jurisprudential waffling about "an unenforced law may as well not be law" and other commentary about the English having a special liberty bone that means they can never be governed like East Asians and so on, a barely enforced mask mandate raised mask wearing from 20% to over 80%, comparative to places where mask wearing is more culturally common, and it only seemed to slip after lifting the mandate and through confused and deliberately contrarian messaging from government. The mandate gave fuel to a small number of loud assholes and inveterate contrarians coming up with schemes and loopholes and conspiracies, but it seems like we could have just said "yes, you're very clever, well done" and continued with both the mandate and the lack of actual enforcement and kept good levels of adoption if it weren't for some of those loud assholes being the government itself.
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Nov 22, 2021 12:13
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Guavanaut posted:It's interesting for all the various jurisprudential waffling about "an unenforced law may as well not be law" and other commentary about the English having a special liberty bone that means they can never be governed like East Asians and so on, a barely enforced mask mandate raised mask wearing from 20% to over 80%, comparative to places where mask wearing is more culturally common, and it only seemed to slip after lifting the mandate and through confused and deliberately contrarian messaging from government. It’s hilarious how much we like following them when they’re rules but don’t care when it’s just guidance
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Nov 22, 2021 12:20
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Noxville posted:It’s hilarious how much we like following them when they’re rules but don’t care when it’s just guidance I prefer 'guidance avoidance' to 'rule evasion'. Not sure what the difference is but one of them is bad
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Nov 22, 2021 12:23
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