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Massive debt financed arms and consumer spending for the home front from the US was not a given, and in fact was something of an article of debate. Keynes even recognized that taking on war debts would change the balance of financial power decisively and suggested the British and the Entente in general try to get it done without taking on massive US War debt. However, this ran against the notion of One More Big Push that Wins the War so, the thought of going without was dismissed. Wilson even toyed with trying to turn off the spigot of war debt to enhance his bargaining power while the US was neutral, but backed off.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:45
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DaysBefore posted:Yeah Indy talks about it in this video they had to make to specifically address why they're going to focus so much on DDay when there's Bagration in the eastern front. And I get it, it's an English-language WW2 channel, most of the viewers are going to expect the big names from our history classes. Maybe I'm too trusting but I think they're not like secret fascists or ignoring the massive, overwhelming importance of the Eastern Front. Yeah I definitely don't think they're secret fascists or anything (the War Against Humanity series that Spartacus runs is bleak but good, and seems much more well rounded than the main series), just so disappointing that they've chosen to take the western Anglophone-centric view on the war. Indy is constantly quoting Citino and Glantz, I'm sure he's reading all about it, but the desire to retell the same old story to get easy views is kinda sad. I hardly blame them for making a big D-Day series, but that first guy really is right that what the internet needs is that level of focus on Bagration (not Kursk please not tank battles at Kursk again) PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 18:22
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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lol the weird Wilhelm fanboys are coming from INSIDE THE THREAD
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Nov 22, 2021 19:29
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The last few pages have just radiated boomer History Channel dad energy.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:09
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Drone posted:The last few pages have just radiated boomer History Channel dad energy.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:42
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all you need to know about history is there are losers and there are those that are bisexual and cool.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:50
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The USSR would have collapsed if not for Lend-Lease, so the USA was the most important country after all 
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Nov 22, 2021 22:41
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ItohRespectArmy posted:all you need to know about history is there are losers and there are those that are bisexual and cool. 
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Nov 22, 2021 22:45
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The German Empire didn't lose, that's just what they wanted the world to believe. The crypto Kaisers rule the globe from their base in Neu Prussia (yes, the one in Ontario)
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Nov 22, 2021 23:59
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BRB registering "CryptoKaiser" as my new historical themed altcoin exchange website.
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Nov 23, 2021 00:12
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Big Dick Cheney posted:The USSR would have collapsed if not for Lend-Lease, so the USA was the most important country after all Doing the Tom Hanks hand shake in Delivering Yuri Spam
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Nov 23, 2021 00:57
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DrSunshine posted:BRB registering "CryptoKaiser" as my new historical themed altcoin exchange website. Is it based around the Caesar Cipher?
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Nov 23, 2021 01:11
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Drone posted:The last few pages have just radiated boomer History Channel dad energy. I have opinions on the Panzer V
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Nov 23, 2021 01:12
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Mantis42 posted:The Frenchmen saying the UK are the most pathetic. it's funny how much this gets to you
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Nov 23, 2021 01:15
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Jabor posted:"How would the war have gone without US intervention" is literally the hypothetical being discussed, so it really shouldn't be at all surprising that people are talking about what they think would have happened if the US had stayed out. But the United States WANTED to stay out, the Germans did everything they could to drag them in. If the US doesn't enter the war, then the British will still rely on them for trade and will still prevent the Germans from using US resources. Which would force the German hand to either not attack American shipping (and British shipping with American flags) or to go unrestricted because the neutral country is being a massive benefit to the allies. Which means it would be the same thing as in real life! The Germans and Austrian-Hungarians were literally starving by January 1917 and it only got worse and worse from there. The Germans bled themselves dry on the Spring offensive and that was before the US had any relevant present on the field (bellau wood nonwithstanding, yes). Maybe without the US entering the war they wouldn't have done such a large scale offensive, but staying on the defensive was an impossible situation. They had to end the war, they couldn't hold on indefinitely. Either the war ends in 1914 to 1916 or it simply doesn't end well for the central powers. Ideally though: ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Without the US the continental powers would have collapsed in mutual exhaustion, allowing socialist revolutions that failed in our timeline (Hungary, Bavaria, Germany) to succeed and spark a European and then worldwide revolution.
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Nov 23, 2021 01:26
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It seems like you don't really understand "what if..." discussions. That's okay, but you could at least try to avoid disrupting them by yelling "but that's not what happened in the real world!" constantly.
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Nov 23, 2021 01:39
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OddObserver posted:Is it based around the Caesar Cipher? Dammit, I don't need another project on my 'things I don't have time for' list. But a blockchain built on Caesar Cipher would be so hilarious.
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Nov 23, 2021 02:14
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Jabor posted:It seems like you don't really understand "what if..." discussions. That's okay, but you could at least try to avoid disrupting them by yelling "but that's not what happened in the real world!" constantly. What ifs need a reason though. "what if ww1 was actually France handling Germany all alone" for no concrete reason isn't really a what-if, it's just something completely unrelated to history. if a what if depends on the US not caring about Germany sinking civilian ships and promising to fund a Mexican invasion, refuses to listen to popular pressure, refuses to trade with their biggest trading partners during the war, the British somehow also just drop the whole war issue AND germany and austria-hungary suddendly aren't starving for half the war anymore, then yeah, of course the central powers win handily. But at that stage, what's even the point of the hypothetical? There are very interesting what if scenarios for the first world war. What if the Germans focus on Russia first? What if they don't relieve troops from the western front due to panic of the Russian invasion? What if Italy joins in with the central powers? What if Greece does it too? What if the British aren't utter bastards with the Otomans and are able to not burn the bridge entirely, guaranteeing either an ally or a neutrality out of them? Hell, what if Germany finds an ally in Russia by disregarding Austria-hungary, pulling them to the allied powers instead? These are very interesting, some of them reaching wild hypothesis, scenarios. "What if the US just sleeps and ignores the world" isn't a very interesting scenario, because it just seems to exist to push for a very specific end-case.
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Nov 23, 2021 02:41
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Mans posted:if a what if depends on the US not caring about Germany sinking civilian ships and promising to fund a Mexican invasion, refuses to listen to popular pressure, refuses to trade with their biggest trading partners during the war, the British somehow also just drop the whole war issue AND germany and austria-hungary suddendly aren't starving for half the war anymore, then yeah, of course the central powers win handily. This is why I say you're missing the point, because it's not "all of those things" and never has been. How about "just one of those things"? What if the US doesn't intercept messages about land promised to Mexico? (What if the central powers never send those messages to begin with?) Does America still send its sons into the hell of trench warfare, or is it happy to keep sitting on the sidelines thinking "glad it's not me" while shipping arms over? If it could go either way, is thinking about the one that didn't happen in our reality a reasonable-enough "what if" scenario?
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Nov 23, 2021 03:26
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What if Germany doesn't invade through Belgium and the UK stays out of it
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Nov 23, 2021 04:22
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Jackie D posted:What if Germany doesn't invade through Belgium and the UK stays out of it
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Nov 23, 2021 04:32
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Mans posted:What fantastic scenario is this where not only the US but also the British back out of the fight? The British are not backing out of the fight. However, they literally ran out of collateral to use to secure American loans in early 1917. The US only gave non secured loans to the British because we had joined the war, and even then there was a lot of resistance to doing so. The US would not have given those loans to the UK if they had not joined the war, and while the British would have been able to continue to pay for the British war effort, they would not have been able to continue to subsidize the French war effort and economy.
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Nov 23, 2021 06:15
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Charlz Guybon posted:The British are not backing out of the fight. However, they literally ran out of collateral to use to secure American loans in early 1917. The US only gave non secured loans to the British because we had joined the war, and even then there was a lot of resistance to doing so. The US would not have given those loans to the UK if they had not joined the war, and while the British would have been able to continue to pay for the British war effort, they would not have been able to continue to subsidize the French war effort and economy.
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Nov 23, 2021 07:10
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Jabor posted:This is why I say you're missing the point, because it's not "all of those things" and never has been. The Zimmerman telegram was intercepted by the British, who had gone out of their way to ensure that any telegram traffic would pass through lines they controlled and could eavesdrop on. But even if the telegram hadn't been sent, the Germans resumed unrestricted submarine warfare around the same time, which seriously hurt American public opinion of Germany as US merchant ships were torpedoed. That had a pretty good chance of leading to US reentry to the war all on its own, as every sunken merchant ship recalled memories of the Lusitania. And the reason for both the Zimmerman telegram and the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare was the same: the "neutral" Americans were already so crucial to the Allied war effort that the Germans thought disrupting it was worthwhile, even if it led to open war with the US.
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Nov 23, 2021 07:25
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Nobody gave a poo poo about the Lusitania (or really the Zimmerman Telegram for that matter), your average American and their family/friends weren't exactly making regular trans-Atlantic cruises they didn't care about u-boats. That's just the nonsense they put in the 10th grade history books to avoid admitting the reason we had to send all those dudes to die was the bankers wanting to make sure they got their loans back.
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Nov 23, 2021 17:41
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Just like Belgium, they were great propaganda excuses to make the soldiers fight, and an argument can be made that they represented political pressure for joining the war.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:03
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Crazycryodude posted:Nobody gave a poo poo about the Lusitania (or really the Zimmerman Telegram for that matter), your average American and their family/friends weren't exactly making regular trans-Atlantic cruises they didn't care about u-boats. That's just the nonsense they put in the 10th grade history books to avoid admitting the reason we had to send all those dudes to die was the bankers wanting to make sure they got their loans back. this seems like a too-limited view of propaganda, and crunches down "bankers" into one actor that controls everything without really thinking about how that control manifested. for example, one of the ways business interests pushed the US into war to get their loans back was by pushing that sort of propaganda.
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Nov 23, 2021 20:18
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And frankly, “they just tried to get Mexico to attack us in a blatant act of aggression” isn’t exactly a hard sell.
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Nov 23, 2021 21:12
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Whoever recommended Iron Kingdom, thank you.ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Without the US the continental powers would have collapsed in mutual exhaustion, allowing socialist revolutions that failed in our timeline (Hungary, Bavaria, Germany) to succeed and spark a European and then worldwide revolution. Not that I think it's ridiculous or anything, but has someone actually put out a theory on this in any detail? (Not that I'm used to historians talking in certainties.)
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Nov 24, 2021 06:50
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Maenad posted:Whoever recommended Iron Kingdom, thank you. Yes this is known as the Kaiserreich Theory of Syndicalism. I think Jack Reed wrote a book about it?
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Nov 27, 2021 20:05
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Someone introduced me to this game and I feel like I'm gonna resent them for doing so because I lost the entire day to youtube tutorials and a trial-run as Germany (lol). I just wanna ask before I get obsessed; I don't really want to start modding before I have a good grasp of the game, so can you get up to weird historical hijinks in the base game, or is it just various permutations of "the axis win"?
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Nov 27, 2021 23:48
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Pierson posted:Someone introduced me to this game and I feel like I'm gonna resent them for doing so because I lost the entire day to youtube tutorials and a trial-run as Germany (lol). I just wanna ask before I get obsessed; I don't really want to start modding before I have a good grasp of the game, so can you get up to weird historical hijinks in the base game, or is it just various permutations of "the axis win"? Which game? From the context of the post I'm guessing one of the Hearts of Iron games, and if it's 4 then the answer is extremely yes, although a lot of the really wacky alt-history stuff is gated behind DLC.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:55
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Oh man sorry I meant HOI4 yeah. I always kind of avoided it because I thought the micro would be even worse than CK2/3 but the battleplan system is incredible, it looks great and I'm having a ton of fun drawing up multi-coloured lines on a map that immediately get my tanks stuck on a mountain.
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Nov 28, 2021 00:14
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My favourite What If was when in my casual multiplayer game I as Germany allied Poland and we split the world together; and I successfully commence an invasion of the continental US in 1941 because at that point in time Paratroopers could land anywhere as long as there was an airfield so I paradropped from Brest to New York and then immediately right clicked with the whole Germany navy on it (also a port) to transport my invasion force along over. My friend playing as Poland who was invading the USSR at the time was shocked that it worked.
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Nov 28, 2021 00:43
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Pierson posted:Oh man sorry I meant HOI4 yeah. I always kind of avoided it because I thought the micro would be even worse than CK2/3 but the battleplan system is incredible, it looks great and I'm having a ton of fun drawing up multi-coloured lines on a map that immediately get my tanks stuck on a mountain. The initial design said "Cool arrows are cool" and we went from there. There's also a dedicated HoI4 thread somewhere here which is fairly active, and might help you more.
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Nov 28, 2021 11:23
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looks like Groogy, having helped bring Vicky 3 into existence, is moving on to a new garrison https://twitter.com/SirVogelius/status/1465304544817164290 o7
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Nov 29, 2021 17:13
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Can’t believe this thread was so mean to Groogy he had to quit Paradox  (Glad to hear you got out Groogy  good luck in your new role!!)
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Nov 29, 2021 17:16
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Goodbye and good luck, Groogs
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Nov 29, 2021 19:12
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Using the following evidence: He is going to Ubisoft Stockholm Ubisoft Stockholm is working on an Avatar game Toy Story clip in tweet I have concluded that Ubisoft is going to partner with Disney to make a Disney themed grand strategy game à la Kingdom Hearts. Major features: Navy mechanics that matter, including entire nations living "under the sea." Varied tech/focus trees to cover Magic Kingdoms, reclusive but technologically advanced ethnostates, & superpowers. Default combat width increased to 101 to accommodate dalmatian based unit templates.
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Nov 29, 2021 19:45
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Good luck Groogy and wherever you'll go and whatever you'll do , always remember: history is always written by the winners, and never by losers.
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Nov 29, 2021 19:49
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