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Update 84: Infinity (Act 4, Scene 8) Katawa Shoujo OST ~ Passing of Time  Katawa Shoujo OST - Daylight There haven't been any further disruptions since that week. Of course, that's what I thought the week before that. And Shizune and Misha's sudden, newfound clarity had left me feeling a little lost and envious. I thought there was no way I could rest easy at the time. But fortunately, nothing came of my worries. Then before I knew it, there was enough to deal with in school that I even managed to put them off my mind. And still, everything was fine. I was wrong. I'd seen Shizune and Misha's carefully hidden vulnerabilities; but they were still strong. Now, we're going to be graduating soon. I've grown so comfortable here that it kind of crept up on me. When it did, I felt sad and didn't want to think about it. So, I didn't. Not until recently. About a week ago, I started making a list of people I thought I should say goodbye to before graduation. The first rule I laid out for myself was that I would try not to write them down in any kind of special order, like least important to most important. Somehow, it ended up like that anyway, even though it also ended up being a shorter list than I expected it to be. Kenji is somewhere in the middle. .png)  KENJI: "They said I would have to graduate eventually. Well, I showed them. I've lived here rent free for more than long enough. If you take into account the rising cost of land, I think you could say I've won in the end. No, you know what? I did win. History will acknowledge me as the victor."  HISAO: "The victor of what?" KENJI: "I managed to stay out of sight, and slip through the cracks. I beat the system." HISAO: "If you put it that way, it sounds like you just ran away from the system." KENJI: "Sometimes, running is the greatest form of victory; like in the Olympics." I'm too tired to argue with him. Who's he kidding? Everyone knows the shot put is the best Olympic event, in any case. HISAO: "So, what you're basically saying is, you won't miss it?" KENJI: "Miss what?" HISAO: "School, dummy." KENJI: "No. I told you, this place is too filled with feminists. It's beyond saving. But at least I'll be able to get out before it reaches critical mass. I'll only come back, years later, when they build a statue to honor me." HISAO: "Do they do the ten year later reunion thing here?" KENJI: "How would I know that? Probably. Anyway, I have to start packing now. Take care of yourself, man." HISAO: "You should have packed a week ago, like I did." Not that I had much to pack. KENJI: "That's not how it goes. You're supposed to do everything at the last minute. Men are better at doing everything at the last minute, the last minute can have more productivity than like, the entire week before it. It's how we keep poo poo fair. Pffft, you'll never understand our manly ways." HISAO: "You take care of yourself, too." With a salute, he shoots backwards through the door, slamming it shut behind him hard enough that the entire dorm probably heard it. I've noticed that a lot of people slam doors here. Maybe it's a local thing. “Take care of myself.” It's the first time I've heard him say it. Usually he ends our conversations with something like, “seeya.” “I'll pay you back later, man.” Well, he was a little annoying sometimes, but I'll miss him. I cross him off my list mentally. The list is very short now, and I once again discard the notion of going through it in any kind of order. Like I said, I never had that intention. So, I go out to look for Shizune and Misha. I can only think of one place they could be. The student council room, of course. (Crowd Sounds) Turning the corner, I almost bump into a small group of students. For a second, a bitter feeling flashes through me, since for all I know, that could have been fatal. It's the new Student Council. There aren't a lot of them, but a lot more than three. Which is good, since it means there's enough of them that they can each have their own title. It would have been cool if I could have had a little desk plaque with my name and title on it. I don't think they do that now, or ever did, unfortunately. The new Student Council surrounds me while I'm thinking. If anyone were looking at this from afar, it would be a pretty sinister sight. Maybe they have come to finally get back on me for calling them “the new Student Council” all those times. I was just translating for Shizune, but I guess I should have been less lazy and more tactful. I regret nothing. I find myself being thanked for “everything I've done.” I'm being thanked. This should make me happy, considering how often I would think to myself that being in the Student Council was a completely thankless job. It does make me happy, but I can't enjoy it fully. Katawa Shoujo OST - Daylight (Muted) I wonder how things would have turned out if our Student Council had grown as large as the one that's set to replace us. Even though they've only got two or three other members, it's enough that they have set roles. Not like us, where Shizune seemed to be the president, but that was it. The new council thanking me gives me a strange feeling. It's like coming back home and seeing that a tree you nurtured years before has grown. But I feel like I didn't nurture that tree enough. I wonder what more I could have done. It would likely make Shizune furious that I would feel distant from what I did in the Student Council this way, or that I'd imply I didn't do enough, but it's true. I was only following her. So, in a way, I also feel like I'm viewing that same tree from far away. As if I'm seeing it from the window of a train as it passes by. (Silence, Crowd Sounds Continue) I indulged in these thoughts for too long. When I snap out of it, I realize that I'm still standing there, surrounded by the new Student Council. I do the only thing I can do, and apologize for zoning out. Then, I thank them back. Katawa Shoujo OST - School Days (Crowd Sounds Stop) When they walk away, I enter the student council room, which looks a lot messier, but seems to have gained a computer. It makes sense; I recall hearing one of the clipboard girls talking about her plans to use a computer to make all the boring data entry Shizune does more tolerable. I can't remember which one said it, though. Aoi seems to be the more ambitious one, but then again, Keiko appears more serious. Well, it doesn't matter now. I'm not alone in the room, but instead of finding Shizune here like I expected, it's just Misha. She's sitting on Shizune's desk, like Shizune herself often does, swinging her legs back and forth. .png)  Her sprite bounces up. When our eyes meet, she hops off and inexplicably poses like a superhero.  MISHA: "Hi, Hicchan~! I'm surprised to see you here~!" HISAO: "What are you doing?" MISHA: "You first~." HISAO: "I was looking for Shizune." MISHA: "Me, too~! I thought she would be here, but I got Hicchan instead~!" HISAO: "Gee, thanks." MISHA: "Wahaha! Well~, this is good. Really, really~. I wanted to talk to you, anyway~." HISAO: "About what?" I take the time to glance around the room a little more. I see a hot plate. They are really living high. MISHA: "I wanted to say sorry~, of course~, for all the trouble I made for you and Shicchan." HISAO: "Don't call it “trouble.”" MISHA: "Right~, right~." HISAO: "Don't apologize to Shizune." MISHA: "Ahaha~. Right~, right~. But that isn't why I'm here, Hicchan. I wouldn't apologize to Shicchan. Since you're here, I want to ask you a question." .png) MISHA: "Hicchan, what do you think it would take for Shicchan to be happy?" HISAO: "World domination, obviously." MISHA: "Wahaha~! Even though you're joking, Hicchan~... No, even if she could, it wouldn't make Shicchan happy. Only for a little while. Hicchan, have you ever heard of artists who tear up their paintings as soon as they finish them? Such people really exist in the world, you know~! remembered it all of a sudden. It's just like Shicchan, now that I think about it. Whenever Shicchan sets up a challenge for herself and completes it, she acts like her skills have no meaning any more. I wonder~, is it because she can't create anything permanent? It's just like those artists, and how they want to create a piece of art to leave behind~, a really great one~, but can't do it. It's really obvious when I look back at it~, but~, I didn't see it before. Now, I'm scared. I wonder if Shicchan will ever be happy." .png) HISAO: "No, I don't think so. Not about her ever being happy. I think you're wrong. Shizune is actually happy more often than I'd thought. I think it's actually kind of amazing. Usually, people don't think about that kind of stuff until they're middle aged or dying. Then they think “I want to leave something behind” or “I want to be remembered.”" Like me. Only I skipped ahead a little. My life was short, and seemed even shorter after my heart attack. I didn't think about what I was leaving behind, because I very quickly thought there was almost nothing I was leaving behind. So all that was left was for me to stew in my own bitterness. HISAO: "Shizune already wants to leave her mark somewhere. But she wants to do it by helping people. That's why celebrations are so important to her. She even wants to be a philanthropist. I think it's the best way to live, living on by what you give to others. Even if it's for a selfish reason, that's okay, too. Shizune is already happy, because if something goes well, there will always be someone else to see it and remember it. That's what makes her happy." Misha sighs, arms stiff at her sides, hands tapping the air softly. MISHA: "Before, I still thought... hm~... I might be able to make Shizune happy; and I was in a good place to do it before. Since I was her interpreter, I could always be with her. Maybe... And~, I thought I would do it by becoming like... Shicchan's shadow. I kept trying even when she rejected me. It felt like I was stuck and I couldn't do anything but watch Shicchan's back getting smaller while she kept going. I was scared, even though I should have just accepted it. It's hard. Maybe I could have at least understood Shicchan~. But it looks like I was completely wrong after all~... I didn't even know that, or think about it... Shicchan would call it a complete loss. Okay~, I'm done. That's it, Hicchan~. But~! Since you're the one who knows Shicchan best of all, you can't make her cry. Or I'll be angry~! I'm going to go overseas after this. I even have letters of recommendation, or I don't think I would be able to normally~! Maybe I'll study and become a sign language teacher over there? Who knows~! That means~! You have to look after Shicchan, okay?" (Silence) .png) Misha's smile is as honest as ever, but she's obviously changed. The look in her eyes is that of a much more attentive girl. It seems to be true that hardship builds wisdom. It reminds me of the look in Shizune's eyes. I wonder what Shizune might have been through to have become who she is. I can take a guess. Or maybe she was always like that. I want to see her even more, and suggest to Misha that we should look for her together. Of course, it's just a pretext to spend more time with a friend. It's strange how it hasn't been long since we last hung out together, the three of us, in the span of a routine student council day. Yet, it seems like it was long ago. Thinking about the future can put that kind of lens over the past. Speaking of lenses... Katawa Shoujo OST - Ease .png) Outside, Yuuko is standing around, fiddling with a tiny, modern-looking camera in her hands. It would be unnoticeable if it weren't metallic enough to reflect the sunlight. Misha calls out to her. I thought we were supposed to be looking for Shizune. MISHA: "Hi~ hi~! What are you doing~?"  YUUKO: "I'm just taking photos of everyone." MISHA: "That's obvious~!" Awkward. Misha, I'll never forget how you taught me that someone can hold so many secrets, and still have a massive lack of tact. HISAO: "Where's my photo?" YUUKO: "Y-you want a copy? I... don't know. Well... Only if you promise to keep it a secret, or else everyone will want one too." MISHA: "That happened to me in elementary school, only it was with candy~!" YUUKO: "Okay... I'll take a photo of you now, then..." HISAO: "Ah, wait, I'm not ready. I was just kidding." MISHA: "Hicchan, make a peace sign~!" HISAO: "I'm not going to do that." (Camera Shutter Sound) The screen flashes white. The camera flash goes off, blinding me. Yuuko shields herself behind it, letting out a moan of frustration. You're not supposed to turn the flash on outdoors. She starts apologizing unnecessarily, and then quietly slips away. HISAO: "Ah, wait." YUUKO: "Yes?" MISHA: "Did you see Shicchan around here~?" YUUKO: "Yes... In front of the gate." HISAO: "Thanks." I can barely get it out before I have to start following behind Misha. (Crowd Sounds) .png) Fortunately, not for very long. The gate is barely a minute's walk from here, even though even that can be tiring for me sometimes. We see Shizune with the Student Council; they're probably thanking her too. (Crowd Sounds Stop) As soon as she sees us, she shoos them away. Which is very easy, since I doubt any of them can understand sign language or use it, so they're not too sad about leaving. Which in turn makes me wonder why they would thank her without someone who can, but it's the thought that counts. .png) Misha’s sprite springs forward and bounces off Shizune’s. Misha immediately hugs Shizune, and then leans against the gate, next to her. I, on the other hand, decide to hang back a little, and let them talk. After all, Misha wanted to talk to Shizune this whole time. I can wait. I even turn away, so I don't “eavesdrop” on their conversation. I end up losing track of the time. When I look at my watch, it's already been ten minutes. I wonder if they're done, and turn around to find them behind me.  SHIZUNE: “[What are you thinking about?]" HISAO: "Boring philosophical things that I don't want to talk about. Don't worry, I'm not thinking about it too hard." SHIZUNE: “[Good. Getting philosophical at a time like this would be the worst thing you could do.]" HISAO: "Yeah. I just want to stand here for a bit. It's relaxing." MISHA: "Wahaha~! It was~ a busy week." HISAO: "Not really, not for me." I know that they must have been busy. But I think I know what I want to do now, and when it hit me, I didn't feel particularly fired up, or anxious. It is the opposite. I feel at peace for the first time in a long time, and I want to savor that feeling a little more. I think that I want to teach here. As soon as I thought this, a long, winding road appeared in my mind. An uncertain road, that leads back here. I wonder if I'll be able to meet someone in the future like me. Someone filled with bitterness. I want to talk to that person, since I can't talk to myself. I want to tell them that life is too short; something that couldn't be told to me, only shown. I want to do it without pity. If I had been pitied, I'm sure that I'd have only died a little more. When I think about that first week, I still think about how well it went. So well that it could only be called the result of kindness. I feel like I want to show others the same kindness. And I also want to keep chasing Shizune." MISHA: "What did the new Student Council want, Shicchan~?" It's hard to daydream when you have to deal with Misha's voice. HISAO: "I didn't know that they had someone who knew sign language." SHIZUNE: “[They don't. I think it was most likely just a goodbye, so I appreciate it, even though I couldn't tell them. How did you know I was here?]" HISAO: "Is it supposed to be a secret? Anyway, we just asked Yuuko. Did she take a photo of you, too?" SHIZUNE: “[Yes, without asking me first. Since Yuuko doing anything spur-of-the-moment is rare, though, I'll let it go.]" She snaps her fingers, more because I think she likes it, than out of realization of an idea. SHIZUNE: “[We should take a photo of the three of us. We haven't taken a student council photo yet. Now's the perfect chance. But, if I have to look at this picture a year from now, I don't want us staring back at me.]" MISHA: "Hm~? What does that mean, Shicchan?" SHIZUNE: “[Pictures are supposed to capture the moment, isn't that right? Without a doubt. They're not portraits. Just standing around would be so stiff. It wouldn't even capture how I feel. I feel like we'll meet again. So, this isn't an occasion to take such a serious photo. It should be a “see you later” type of photo; not a big deal. It should be something more... festive.]" HISAO: "Oh boy." SHIZUNE: “[Like this. Follow me.]" Shizune poses like a musketeer, so quickly that I'm sure even she knows it's silly. MISHA: "Ahahaha~!" HISAO: "Do we really have to do... such a cheesy pose?" SHIZUNE: “[I can think of no better pose. Misha, go find Yuuko!]" MISHA: "I don't like this pose either, but I think it's kind of nice~." HISAO: "That doesn't even make sense." She's already gone, and returns dragging Yuuko behind her. .png) The flash is off. A red LED blinks three times above it after Yuuko's finger presses the button. Shizune glances at both of us to make sure we have the timing down. Synchronize watches. We jump. .png) SHIZUNE: “[I bet that turned out excellently. Okay, ...]" MISHA: "Now, let's get one with Yuuko, too~!" YUUKO: "N-no, please..." HISAO: "That's not necessary." .png) I want a copy of this photo, too. I'll likely die younger than the average person. My life could unexpectedly burn out at any time. I don't have any time to waste, then. I want to live as much as possible. I also want to see other people smile from what I've made and done. Living vicariously through the happiness of others doesn't seem so bad. Feeling joy through another person's happiness doesn't seem like such a bad thing. It's the easiest way I can think of to draw out my own life, and give it distinction. Maybe this is the meaning that Shizune has found for herself, although it's just my theory. People find themselves alone often in their lives, and without direction. However, people can take refuge in moments of happiness. They can dot a person's life like stops on a train map. Or waypoints of memory on a long trail. hese individual moments, on reflection, can give a person's life fulfillment. Every friend, and festival, and joyful meeting, and joyful parting. .png) I want to be able to ask Shizune one day if I'm right. I want to spend the time I have with her. Finally, I want to make Shizune smile for herself. HISAO: "I love you." I pause, wondering if she'll look at me, confused, and ask why I'd say it out of the blue. She doesn't. HISAO: "Do they do that reunion thing here?" SHIZUNE: “[Of course they do.]" MISHA: "A Student Council member should know that~!" SHIZUNE: “[Sooner than that, though, okay? Both of you.]" MISHA: "Right~!" HISAO: "Yeah." SHIZUNE: “[Yuuko! You do the pose, too! Afterwards, we can go for tea.]" Shizune laughs, as if she doesn't have a care in the world, Misha's laughter joining with hers as easily as if it were her own. We'll meet again. THE END
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Nov 22, 2021 15:19
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Did Misha break her arm in that photo? It looks like her forearm needs to be flipped in the other direction.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:19
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raifield posted:Did Misha break her arm in that photo? It looks like her forearm needs to be flipped in the other direction. It looks a bit wonky, but it's a legit pose. Imagine doing an uppercut.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:31
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So, I realized, this hasn't been brought up, but now that we've been through Shizune, Hanako, and Emi's routes, basically all the key hints have been dropped for a certain subplot that, while never made explicit (except in the beta, where it's openly confirmed), is extremely likely. Everyone might have noticed Yuuko and Kenji speaking wistfully about their exes at various points in the three preceding routes. Given the traits described, it's fairly likely that Yuuko and Kenji used to be a couple. Of course, first thing to take note of is that this means Yuuko was dating a student, so, let's all take a moment to say "yikes" on that count. That's probably why it was reduced to just vague implications when it had previously been openly acknowledged. Especially since, in the manly picnic ending, Kenji claims to have slept with her (while he's actually just copying General Ripper's speech from Dr. Strangelove, it's also supposedly the origin of his paranoia regarding women*, and is what caused him to break up with Yuuko). Now, if it weren't for the age difference making it gross, the subplot would mostly be just tragic, as it's clear that Yuuko still has some feelings for Kenji, and Kenji pretty clearly misses Yuuko, but Kenji is ultimately the architect of his own misery, and he's kinda too far gone to notice it. So, anyway, that's the subplot, the end, no moral (I mean aside from "school staff should not date students" but hopefully everyone already knew that). *Some hints imply he's always had a rather distant relationship with reality, and the "feminists" thing is just the latest permutation of his conspiracy theories, while other hints imply he was paranoid about women prior to the incident he describes at the manly picnic, or that said incident never happened in the first place and he's just always been wary of women, so who knows?
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Nov 22, 2021 16:37
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I might be jumping back several pages for this (I'll admit that I've kind of checked out of this thread until Rin's arc since I'll be able to provide mote personal insight then) but the earlier talk about trans rights and their intersection with this thread reminded me of an article I came across in the long read thread. It specifically deals with the changes in the UK re trans rights that came around due to moneyed interests wanting to, well, keep their money. https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/secret-court-case-50-years-ago-robbed-transgender-people-rights-1291857/amp Be interesting to hear about any stories dealing with privilege and disabled/trans rights.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:59
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Isn’t Yuuko a university student though? And Kenji is a senior. It’s possible for them to be within 1-2 years of age, unless I misread something.
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Nov 22, 2021 17:00
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i had trouble putting my finger on why i didn't like thos ending very much. i think it's two things: first of all, it feels perfunctory. like, "oh, it's time to end the story now, let's just toss out a bundle of clichés and call it a day". second, it feels like a lot of stuff wasn't really resolved. Shizune and Misha got over this fight, sure, but it doesn't seem like the underlying issue has been repaired. Hisao's whole teacher thing was kind of out of nowhere and came about because of people who aren't even differentiated as individuals, they're just "the new student council". i don't feel like anyone's character has significantly grown or changed over the course of the story. i love Shizune and Misha as characters, and i think Hisao would be a good teacher. but... this story is, flat out, just not as well written as the others we've seen so far.
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Nov 22, 2021 17:09
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Shizune's route is more of a coming of age story for all of the main characters, and less a romance. And I guess that's a fine and interesting take on the genre. There's just no really likeable characters in the story to get me involved, imo. Misha and Hisao are so-so. Shizune, her dad and Kenji are actively awful. Dance Officer fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 17:28
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Dirk the Average posted:Isn’t Yuuko a university student though? And Kenji is a senior. It’s possible for them to be within 1-2 years of age, unless I misread something. Given the timeframe involved, it's likely they were together when Kenji was a junior, and since Yuuko was never a student at Yamaku, that means the difference is a minimum of two years, and, I cannot stress this enough, college students should not be getting involved with high school students. A preexisting relationship from when both were in high school is one thing, but a current college student starting a relationship with a high school student is always gross.
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Nov 22, 2021 17:33
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EclecticTastes posted:...it's also supposedly the origin of his paranoia regarding women*... I think the origin of his paranoia with woman is suggested to be an absolutely terrible relationship with his mother. I choose to look at Kenji as a victim broken by a bad home life. Bits of decency shine through occasionally.
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Nov 22, 2021 18:01
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Dance Officer posted:Shizune's route is more of a coming of age story for all of the main characters, and less a romance. And I guess that's a fine and interesting take on the genre. Shizune's brother was great, but otherwise agreed, nothing was really compelling here other than him. Honestly the most fun, organic thing in this entire arc was the miniature fishing trip.
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Nov 22, 2021 18:04
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The best explanation I can think of is that Yuuko was at one point two characters that during writing were condensed into one and lack of skillful editing meant that the substantially simpler explanation - that people simply have exes that you will never meet - was never made explicit. This explanation is mostly substantiated by the fact that this route suffers considerably from lack of editing, but is undercut quite dramatically by the same lack of editing - people don't condense characters without taking an axe to their script, something that kind of clearly didn't happen because good lord is there a lot of dead text here. I don't think I hated it as much as other people but mostly in so far as I didn't hate Shizune as a character. She's a flawed young person, and I don't get invested in fiction to see paragons of virtue leap from success to success. I wouldn't even say she really succeeded in overcoming her major issues, she stumbled across the hurdle of "the student council, as an institution, must survive despite its clear lack of popularity" but this didn't flow from her overcoming personal flaws internally, it flowed from her using time and labor to make appeals in spite of her being kind of an rear end in a top hat. She's successful on her own terms, rather than "fixing" her problems. It reads to me as a story about perseverance/stubbornness rather than a story about communication, and honestly that reads a little better to me? She struggles to communicate on several levels - she's reliant on a language uncommon in her environment, she has a variety of communication tics inherited from her awful awful father, she treats virtually everything as a competition, she values provocation over clarity. That is to say, she struggles to communicate for reasons directly tied to disability and for reasons of personality that even with no disability would make her a poor communicator. Instead of resolving any of that, she fixes her major problems - her friend withdrawing, her notion of legacy - with basically pure grit. It's pretty cliche, but has the virtue of not creating a muddled metaphor where she is "fixed" in some way but then we'd be left with an awkward implication that her disability is her responsibility to fix too. Instead it reads a little more bitterly as her having to work extra hard to accomplish her goals. Way, way too much time with Kenji for his narrative function though, Jesus. Worst part is that as I wrote this, a useful angle about Shizune is that part of what makes her off-putting is that she's a rude, gruff woman and if the route had gone harder about the gender angle then Kenji's misogyny would have some more resonance rather than just being kind of a bunch of gross nonsense.
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Nov 22, 2021 18:06
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EclecticTastes posted:Given the timeframe involved, it's likely they were together when Kenji was a junior, and since Yuuko was never a student at Yamaku, that means the difference is a minimum of two years, and, I cannot stress this enough, college students should not be getting involved with high school students. A preexisting relationship from when both were in high school is one thing, but a current college student starting a relationship with a high school student is always gross. doesn't what Kenji says in this latest update strongly imply he's been held back a few years?
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Nov 22, 2021 18:39
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raifield posted:I think the origin of his paranoia with woman is suggested to be an absolutely terrible relationship with his mother. I choose to look at Kenji as a victim broken by a bad home life. Bits of decency shine through occasionally. Aside from Kenji being overly concerned at the notion of his mother being right about something (which doesn't necessarily indicate a poor overall relationship, she may just be extremely smug when proven right about things), there's not much that suggests this. Conversely, during the manly picnic, Kenji gives this exact speech, but using more modern vernacular. Which you may think is an absurd belief system that only a goofy comedic caricature like Kenji or General Ripper could hold, but a very similar line of thought is why MRAs came up with "no nut November" (no seriously the original idea behind it was to, like, "build up" some sort of nebulous masculine power, like The Contest as an episode of DBZ). Tulip posted:The best explanation I can think of is that Yuuko was at one point two characters that during writing were condensed into one and lack of skillful editing meant that the substantially simpler explanation - that people simply have exes that you will never meet - was never made explicit. This explanation is mostly substantiated by the fact that this route suffers considerably from lack of editing, but is undercut quite dramatically by the same lack of editing - people don't condense characters without taking an axe to their script, something that kind of clearly didn't happen because good lord is there a lot of dead text here. Like I said, in the beta, Yuuko and Kenji were explicitly exes, so that's the origin of this subplot. They almost certainly made it more vague because they realized the ethical/moral implications of the relationship. Chloe Jessica posted:doesn't what Kenji says in this latest update strongly imply he's been held back a few years? It's possible, but I would say that a college student working as school staff shouldn't be involved with the students, regardless of age, anyway.
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Nov 22, 2021 18:56
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EclecticTastes posted:Aside from Kenji being overly concerned at the notion of his mother being right about something (which doesn't necessarily indicate a poor overall relationship, she may just be extremely smug when proven right about things), there's not much that suggests this. Conversely, during the manly picnic, Kenji gives this exact speech, but using more modern vernacular. Which you may think is an absurd belief system that only a goofy comedic caricature like Kenji or General Ripper could hold, but a very similar line of thought is why MRAs came up with "no nut November" (no seriously the original idea behind it was to, like, "build up" some sort of nebulous masculine power, like The Contest as an episode of DBZ). OK yeah, my bad. Really grasping at straws to defend writing decisions about a character that I already think pretty much should have been sanded down to near nothing. As for the saving bodily fluids thing, there's a whole thing about it that I figure I may as well talk about because I am bored at work and love history. While Ripper is a good touchstone in modern pop culture, Ripper himself draws on a deeper, darker tradition in the west (there is also a tradition of coitus reservatus in Daoism, I don't know much more about it than that it has to do with Daoist medical theories). I have not specifically researched it so I cannot say that I am familiar with a bronze age version of this belief, but there is at a bare minimum a significant ancient Greek theory of masculine sexual restraint. Two ways in which this is legible to us today is in Greek statues and in their humoral theory. For the statues angle, this is part and parcel of the nudity of their statues: a lot of us wonder about why Greek statues have small penises on otherwise superhero figures, and it's because the small penis is synecdoche for sexual restraint, which is itself a sub-virtue of a larger virtue of self-control. By contrast, large penises on Greek arts are meant to present the bearer as lacking self-control and dignity, an comedic subject rather than a heroic one. The humoral theory gets a little more complex. In this theory, things can be hot or cold, and wet or dry (note these are...kind of abstract, I'm not going to defend the underlying metaphysics). Men are hot & dry, while women are cold & wet. This has a bunch of medical things coming off of it, and one of the ways in which it does is that the masculine immune system succeeds by running hot and burning off illness. When a man ejaculates, that is effectively giving up some of that heat, at least temporarily, and exposing him to a weakened immune system, on top of just generally making a man less manly (because his literal manliness is leaking, you see). Unsurprisingly this is an ancient Greek belief and was thus incredibly misogynistic, and then it got filtered to us through medieval Christendom for a thousand plus years and added a very healthy heap of anti-semitism (visible in Ripper's conspiracy logic, and also in that contemporary heirs to this thought process, while rejecting the humoral theory for more modern biochemistry, are also profoundly anti-semitic). And so, here we have Kenji. Kenji is first and foremost a misogynist, so it makes sense at least in Western tradition that as he continues to isolate himself from people around him, he dives into esoteric, historic misogynistic theories. And as mentioned this theory over the medieval era started to get tied into the large ambient reserves of anti-semitism that we know and love from that era, lending the tradition its heavy, heavy conspiratorial bent.
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Nov 22, 2021 19:34
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EclecticTastes posted:It's possible, but I would say that a college student working as school staff shouldn't be involved with the students, regardless of age, anyway. i agree.
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Nov 22, 2021 19:43
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If he has been held back, it does allow for a timeline where they were together in a more appropriate manner and then broke it off before she started the job at Yamaku. Presumably there's another school around that most of the local students attend, that she could have gone to and still met Kenji since she's not a Yamaku alum. It's all speculation, of course, and trying to make one of the sketchier details more palatable. More thought than Kenji himself really deserves, though maybe not Yuuko.
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Nov 22, 2021 22:33
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If I do decide to do Summer's Clover (which is looking increasingly likely), the end of Shizune's route marks the precise middle of the LP. If anything you posted ended up in the OP, now might be a good time to look over what I wrote about your contributions to make sure they line up with what you meant.
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Nov 23, 2021 05:33
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Oh, that's why I don't remember this part of Shizune's route (possibly just about everything after the visit to Shizune's house): nothing happens! I was also right earlier to not trust myself to not get confused between things that happened in the final version and things that happened in the beta version of Shizune's route, because there was a bunch of stuff in the beta that I was misremembering as happening in the final version. It's unsurprising: I don't know that I'd say it's better (can't remember it well enough), but the beta of Shizune's route at least had a lot more actually happen in it. It's much more memorable when you have [beta spoilers in spoiler tags that I've now edited out - sorry]. This whole time, I've been just waiting for the drama in the route to kick off, thanks to my getting them mixed up... but instead nothing happens, then the story just peters out and stops. I did always say that I found Shizune's route to be kind of flat. That was when I thought it still had that drama bomb in it, too - so now... 
Antistar01 fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 07:22
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Falconier111 posted:If I do decide to do Summer's Clover (which is looking increasingly likely), the end of Shizune's route marks the precise middle of the LP. If anything you posted ended up in the OP, now might be a good time to look over what I wrote about your contributions to make sure they line up with what you meant. Mine looks perfectly fine to me really. Antistar01 posted:I did always say that I found Shizune's route to be kind of flat. That was when I thought it still had that drama bomb in it, too - so now... ... OK, holy poo poo, so glad they changed that spoiler at least, boring beats THAT. But Shizune's route is probably my personal choice for weakest thanks to its relative flatness. In particular the romance kind of feels like a side note; if anything it's definitely "brief fling" over "true love", which I suppose might fit a lot of high school relationships but this is supposed to be a romance visual novel, embrace certain unrealistic things drat it! Excising it for a friendship barely impacts the story apart from a little of Misha's pathos. Also, I have to say her father's presence also mars it in comparison to the other routes. Think he was supposed to be "wacky" and of course instead came off hella abusive; I think somebody also said the Shizune writer contributed Kenji? That kind of fits unfortunately if so. That's not to say I regret playing it (even the "weakest route" is this game is pretty good), but I did kind of enjoy the others more. Although next one is a bit of a ringer in comparison emotionally. EDIT: Remove quoted spoiler per request. MadDogMike fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 08:27
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If we wanted a drama bomb we should have gone down the bad route with Misha.
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Nov 23, 2021 08:29
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Falconier111 posted:If I do decide to do Summer's Clover (which is looking increasingly likely), the end of Shizune's route marks the precise middle of the LP. If anything you posted ended up in the OP, now might be a good time to look over what I wrote about your contributions to make sure they line up with what you meant. Looks good to me  I don't think I've communicated particularly well in this thread so far, but it looks like the point got across. (I don't know why that is, specifically, I swear I'm not usually this bad at posting...)
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Nov 23, 2021 13:26
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I'm pretty sure I read all of the updates, and I don't remember anything that happened in this route after the one choice. I don't think rereading the updates would change that at all. I don't think every story needs "drama bombs", but it felt like this one glossed over all of the potentially interesting things the characters may have been doing. I don't even remember what the reaction to Misha cutting her hair was.
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Nov 23, 2021 13:31
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The last two or three updates feel so forced and in a hurry to wrap things up, it feels like even the writers wanted to get this over with. Personally, I think the second worst part of Shizune's route is just the lack of player/Hisao's agency throughout. It's telling that the only choice the player ever has is to torpedo the relationship in a really huge ball of drama. The worst part of this route is how Hisao really didn't learn anything about relating to other people, unlike in Emi's or Hanako's routes, and if he did, he might think Shizune's way of relating to other people is acceptable. It's also bonkers what they decided to include (nothing) and what they decided to cut out ( But what really gave me chills in this route is Shizune talking exactly like her dad. It was just all kinds of wrong.
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Nov 23, 2021 13:59
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This route was unpleasant the whole way through (though not always for the same reasons, it found a lot of completely different ways to go wrong!) and I am thoroughly glad to have it behind us.Space Kablooey posted:But what really gave me chills in this route is Shizune talking exactly like her dad. It was just all kinds of wrong. Oh I didn't even make that connection but yikes. ("I hope this fictional character finds a good therapist" is a really awkward and bizarre thing to say, but I'm not sure how else to phrase that sentiment.)
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Nov 23, 2021 17:55
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Trying this again.mycelia posted:Looks good to me Probably because it’s something very important to you and you aren’t used to putting it into words; it’s hard to make it feel like you’ve adequately gotten your point across. I can tell because your posting is pretty good  . It took me a LONG time to get this comfortable with discussing these topics. Antistar01 posted:(and this is definitely a spoiler for the beta) [spoiler] The OP posted:How about thread rules? I was literally going to talk about that tomorrow  . It’s kind of late to ask this but can I ask you to delete the offending paragraph? Gotta keep thread policy enforcement even. I’ll amend the thread spoiler policy to include spoiler tags and the beta explicitly.
Falconier111 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 18:58
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Falconier111 posted:I was literally going to talk about that tomorrow Oh goddamn it, sorry. I've edited it out. I'd thought that since I'd mentioned differences in the beta version of Hanako's route earlier in the thread without it seeming to be a problem, it was okay to talk about beta differences once it would no longer spoil the final version. I shouldn't have assumed - and I appreciate the clarification in the OP.
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Nov 23, 2021 22:00
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Antistar01 posted:Oh goddamn it, sorry. I've edited it out. I'd thought that since I'd mentioned differences in the beta version of Hanako's route earlier in the thread without it seeming to be a problem, it was okay to talk about beta differences once it would no longer spoil the final version. I shouldn't have assumed - and I appreciate the clarification in the OP. Yeah, what I’m looking for is avoiding spoilers on routes we haven’t been down. I have not been as consistent at enforcing the no-spoiler policy as I should be; maybe I decided what you said about Hanako was too vague to matter? I dunno, it’s been a long day.
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Nov 23, 2021 22:03
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Actually, looking at the scene chart I just realized we're extremely overdue for  another set of votes without the context you need to understand them! You have no fewer than FOUR questions to answer this time. Pick 1 from each set:
Remember to bold your votes. Vote ends in approx. 48 hours!
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Nov 24, 2021 04:28
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even more positivity motion platonic solids bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 04:55
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Falconier111 posted:Actually, looking at the scene chart I just realized we're extremely overdue for positivity stability Platonic solids bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 04:56
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Positivity, stability, Platonic solids, and "yes" (i.e. no opinion on the last one)
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Nov 24, 2021 04:58
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Positivity Stability Graveyard poetry Not bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 05:28
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Even more positivity Stability Graveyard poetry Not bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 05:32
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positivity motion graveyard poetry not bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 05:34
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positivity motion platonic solids not bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 05:49
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even more positivity stability Platonic solids not bullshit where art intersects with the economy, now that's bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 06:26
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Positivity Motion Platonic solids I haven't chimed in in this thread much because my experiences aren't that interesting, but as an artist I'm legally obligated to chime in and say it's not bullshit.
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Nov 24, 2021 06:29
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Positivity Stability Platonic Solids Not Bullshit I'm no artist, but I personally hate the idea that art is bullshit because that implies that any kind of creativity is bullshit, which is completely false. Creativity is a powerful form of self-expression, regardless of the form it chooses to take. The only time it becomes bullshit is when plagiarism is involved, and then only on the plagiarizer's side.
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Nov 24, 2021 13:44
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| # ? Jun 11, 2024 23:28 |
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Even more positivity Stability Platonic Solids Not Bullshit
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Nov 24, 2021 14:57
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