|
adhuin posted:For season 2, more episodic cases, less main plot and more Ein.
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 00:17 |
|
|
do we ever see if they un-abandon ein? in the off chance they get more seasons, that character MUST be front and center
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 03:56
|
|
|
tokin opposition posted:do we ever see if they un-abandon ein? in the off chance they get more seasons, that character MUST be front and center Ein is with Ed in the last scene of the last episode. We won't know more until Season 2, but Ein is still around.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 04:11
|
|
|
space. lobster. horror. episode. when?
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 04:20
|
|
|
I was surprised by the season arc, that's one thing I liked about the adaptation, at least it moves on from the anime, whatever its faults. One of those faults for me is how the world-building quickly disappeared in favour of cheap sets to stage action in. You can see where the money was budgeted but hey, no one else was going to make this. HBO spent millions on the garbage that was Game of Thrones instead of a better adaptation of Cowboy Bebop, anime fans, so you're stuck with this Netflix hand-me-down cheapo version. Nevertheless the actors put their hearts into it. Jet is more or less played perfectly straight by Shakir; Cho plays a more broken Spike, Pineda is a Faye that didn't get enough time for my liking. Haskell's Vicious is bonkers, a pisstake, designed to gently caress with your expectations and I laughed a lot at the outraged takes on him earlier in this thread. Watch the entire season before writing it off, there is a reason why they didn't serialize it. Julia was the difficult job of the arc and to be honest I think it was 50/50. I see what they were trying to do and it didn't quite come off. She's just not a convincing student-teaching-the-master villain given the structure, the twists are confusing, not satisfying. However, the arc that the major characters actually move on from their pasts (bar Ed/Ein) in the first season compared to the anime is the big surprise, or do they?
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 06:58
|
|
|
I don't have any particular attachment to the anime and... this was so embarrassing on almost every level. The terrible green screen, the awkward direction, the cheap costuming, and uugghh the tryhard quipping. Vicious was awful and Gren and Ed in particular had me wanting to eject myself out of my own skin; Ed just doesn't work as a real kid and the changes to Gren felt wildly out-of-touch and distasteful. Jet's actor did the best with what he had though, he might've been the only element I actually liked besides the cute dog. I'd say it feels like a fan project, but fan projects are earnest and endearingly amateurish, instead of just another bad reboot nobody will remember in a few years from corpos too risk-averse and lazybrained to invest in new ideas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 11:23
|
|
|
I watched cowboy bebop the way my partner watches tv shows, uncaring to others views, without reading Internet comments or hyperbole and just watching a show and relaxing it without trying to examine everything on some big brained critical level. If she doesn't like a show she'll switch if off and not think about it again rather than angry post on the Internet and no matter how much i make fun of shows like heartland or Chicago Med she doesn't give a poo poo because its something she looks forward to. Its a better system than being mad about tv shows on the Internet, that's for sure
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 11:34
|
|
|
JollyBoyJohn posted:I watched cowboy bebop the way my partner watches tv shows, uncaring to others views, without reading Internet comments or hyperbole and just watching a show and relaxing it without trying to examine everything on some big brained critical level. If she doesn't like a show she'll switch if off and not think about it again rather than angry post on the Internet and no matter how much i make fun of shows like heartland or Chicago Med she doesn't give a poo poo because its something she looks forward to. Its a better system than being mad about tv shows on the Internet, that's for sure 
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 12:17
|
|
|
Half way through the season I realized that the tone of this show reminds me a lot of the (canceled?) SyFy series Vagrant Queen. Especially the sets and not spectacular costumes/ effects. I don’t know which one had a bigger budget but Vagrant Queen was clearly an amateur production. It’s weird there are industry professionals on this show and it’s not any better quality wise. I love me some campy SyFy channel nonsense like that old show Lexx but Cowboy Bebop doesn’t fully embrace the camp and doesn’t fully take itself seriously. It’s in this weird limp limbo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 13:19
|
|
|
I'm in a quantum superposition of being happy and unhappy that this was made.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 13:59
|
|
|
Put me in the camp of loving faye valentine in this series.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 15:40
|
|
|
Sinding Johansson posted:Only watched two episodes but yes quite a few references to the economic plight of the characters were already removed. Economic anxiety is a recurring theme in the original show, it's interesting how completely it's been excised. These points hit on some things I didn't even realize I had an issue with. I will say, I went back and rewatched the first episode again and it pushed back on some of my first impressions. One of the big things I was turned off by was how "busy" all the scenes felt. It felt like, on first viewing, that you never got a chance to just sit in the world. The original was very good with letting the world be quiet and letting the viewer breathe between the action, which once they got going were very loud and had a lot going on, so it was needed. But the first Netflix episode had some elements of that, like the scene with Spike trolling the town for info on Asimov, that felt pretty true to the original, though there was still more dialogue than I felt needed to be there. But then we get to the first bar scene, or rather the only bar scene. Originally Asimov meets up with a random bartender and they have a "sneaky" little chat to set up the exchange. It's a quiet bar, with a quiet bartender, and nothing but some loud old codgers that no one would ever pay attention towards to oppose that setting. And even though no one would care what some old coots might have to say but even they get quiet when Asimov and Katerina show up, and it's enough to establish that he's gotta not just outright say "I have stolen drugs for sale" so you get this: "I'll have a beer, and she'll have a Bloody Mary" "I've got the Vodka, but I'm all out of Tomato Juice" "I'm sure there's one can in the back" With a little flash of the vial. Katerina is quiet the whole time, she's not really a part of this, but she is involved. Everyone there knows that the less said, the better. The deal in the back, similarly quiet and behind a closed door, is simple and to the point. Asimov states what he has, the price, and the buyer needs to know it's real. It's an old noir/crime film trope of testing the product yourself to both show it's real and that you're not a narc trying to bust a dealer. Then poo poo hits the fan. Netflix's version? We get an establishing shot of New Tijuana. Asimov and Katerina outside of it, and Asimov blatantly flashes his gun and racks it...before going in. The bar is quiet, but now there's a new Bartender character, and an owner. With one old guy in the corner who isn't doing anything. Katerina asks if Asimov is sure this is the place, and he confirms for her with a kiss. Ok so they're being framed as being FAR less comfortable with their situation and less experienced with trying to offload these drugs. Instead of the "sneaky" exchange we just see Asimov go off to the back with the owner and Katerina asks for water. The new bartender character gives her a bottle of Tequila and a glass, to which we get this: "No water today" "Do I look like I should be drinking Tequila?" "You look like you should be drinking nothing but Tequila ahahaha" Ok, why? Why did they feel the need to insert this character and dialogue into the scene? For the Joke? Was the 10 seconds it took for Asimov to leave the scree too long without something happening that they felt the viewer would get bored and turn it off? Moving to the exchange scene it's mostly the same, the owner is a little more aggressive and dismissive of Asimov than in the original, but if the new framing for the character is that they're well out of their depth and not sure how to offload the drugs, then that makes some sense. But...again, we get this exchange: "I need proof first. If it is what you say it is, then we make a deal. Then we have cupcakes." (Asimov looks confused)"Cupcakes?" "Yeah, who don't like cupcakes. Show me." Again, why the random joke? The musical score and framing of the scene is making it a tense standoff, and you add a dumb quip about cupcakes? Those lines and framing fracture the tone of that scene. It's not even good B-movie dialogue. It comes across as a high schooler trying to mix bad FireFly lines with Marvel and Deadpool quips. Then the gunfight happens and we move on. At this point in the episode we're almost 20 minutes in with 30 left to go. The original episode the story came from is only 24 minutes long, less two and half minutes for the cold open and opening, and it did more, with less dialogue, more action, and a tighter story in the same time. Netflix has far more time to work with to tell this story, and more since they're blurring the pacing of the series by adding in Fey and Vicious, and they waste it by just padding time for no good reason. This is where the paradoxical "its so slow, but also doing way too much" comes from. It takes so long to hit the needed story beats because they just linger with stuff that seems to be blatantly trying to keep your attention. With better editing and writing they could have easily done three whole stories from the Anime in the first Netflix episode but they feel the need to stretch things out with quips and jokes for no good reason beyond "Well that's what movies and TV do now" it seems. Another narrative change they made for Katerina is her ending. Originally she basically had no agency with Asimov or in her situation. That's why she wanted to escape to Mars, to be done with the life she and Asimov were stuck in, and him selling the Red Eye was their only way out of that life. But in the end, she sees that they're totally trapped, Asimov is not in control either, and in a final act of agency, decides to just kill him and end it all via Suicide by Cop. Now she's a rich girl running from daddy with her druggy boyfriend, who gets himself killed in the final scene, as she tries to keep running away, thinking they made it out only to realize that he's dead right before she reaches the gate. She still goes for Suicide by Cop though, but it's hollow. She didn't asset her agency by ending the charade, she got trapped and gave up. On a surface level I get some of the changes, like instead of Asimov confronting Spike when he's talking with Katerina, it's Fey (because they decided to introduce her here), but also they needed to change Katerina's story to make her a bounty as well to explain why Fey is there at all, which they could have completely avoided by just having Fey also be after Asimov... This series needed a better editor. On a second viewing there is a lot there that does hint at the original tone and heart of the show, but then it gets smothered by rambling dialogue, "Telling instead of showing", and doing less by trying to jam in way too much stuff.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
That "cupcake" exchange is babby's first script stuff. Like, that's the kinda thing a fourteen year old would write to seem funny and cool. Somehow I didn't hate the first episode of this, though. It's objectively really pretty crap but it's kind of interesting to watch because of that, I dunno. The dude playing Jet kills it, he's easily my favourite part of the show
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
Crain posted:
I heard a comedian who spoke of a not uncommon phenomena that I can't quite remember his name for, but I'll call a nonjoke. I don't think "cupcakes" even qualifies as a joke. It has the form of a joke, there is a set up and a punchline but there's no wit or reversal or any playing with expectations. There is no humor to it. I agree with you and I think the show is absolutely filled with these nonjokes. The writer felt the need to insert a joke for structural reasons, maybe to deflate the tension of the scene (not that there was much), but they didn't have a joke, all they had was a nonjoke. Crain posted:
I agree. Katerina's character has much more agency in the original series. Netflix reduces her to a damsel in distress. In the original she saves Spike's life from Asimov. In the netflix show, Spike repeatedly tries to save her. In the TV series she defends herself from the gangsters with her gun and is prepared to shoot Spike when he attacks Asimov. In the netflix version she just cowers. Most importantly, in the original she's sick of the violence and disgusted by what the drug is doing to Asimov. She kills Asimov then herself when their capture is inevitable. Spike witnesses this but they don't speak (why would they?) and the episode ends on him reflecting quietly on what happened. Netflix insists on inappropriately inserting Spike into this moment in her life, to no effect, and it doesn't even dwell on how witnessing this affected Spike. e; Xealot posted:she's implied to have come from some money, to have had some kind of inheritance or trust to her name that was conned out of her, vs. the system simply being ravenous and corrupt. That's pretty similar to Faye's back story in the original series. She was from a very rich family, which is why she was put into cryosleep for her injuries in the first place. The cryogenic company's records of who she was were lost/forgotten. Instead of conning her out of money, the people who wake her up con her in to taking on their own debt (which she describes as insignificant compared to the "legitimate" medical debt). A huge huge difference though is that Faye isn't a bounty hunter in the original series, she's a crook with a bounty on her head. She's captured by Jet and Spike but before they can turn her in, she saves their lives. As repayment, she insists they give her passage on the Bebop and then she uses her skills to join them in bounty hunting. Sinding Johansson fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Nov 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
Sinding Johansson posted:I heard a comedian who spoke of a not uncommon phenomena that I can't quite remember his name for, but I'll call a nonjoke. I don't think "cupcakes" even qualifies as a joke. It has the form of a joke, there is a set up and a punchline but there's no wit or reversal or any playing with expectations. There is no humor to it. I agree with you and I think the show is absolutely filled with these nonjokes. The writer felt the need to insert a joke for structural reasons, maybe to deflate the tension of the scene (not that there was much), but they didn't have a joke, all they had was a nonjoke. "Non-jokes" can themselves be funny, if the situation is structured in the right way and the delivery of them has more to hang on (character development, situational incongruity, etc) than just "see, they try make joke but no joke that why funny". Ghostbusters: Afterlife actually uses this super well. the character Phoebe, Egon's granddaughter, tells tons of terrible deadpan jokes, and the delivery plus the situation they're told in is decently funny. Nearest I can tell someone on the writer staff wanted a "Shawarma" moment a la Avengers, but completely failed to understand why that throw away joke actually landed in the context of that scene. Like Barry Foster said: It's a 14 year old's attempt at humor. Honestly, Ghostbusters: Afterlife is great counter example of an adaptation/continuation based on an original property done extremely well and with respect to the original.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 20:26
|
|
|
Nonjoke might be the wrong word since I've learned that's actually a type of joke. I think the phrase I was looking for was "like a joke" [but isn't one].
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 21:23
|
|
|
It's probably more of an irreverent comment than a joke. A word or phrase to lighten the mood, or deflate tension but with no actual joke in it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
I thought it was pretty good, bit sloppy but it had some heart.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
Banter or quip maybe?
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
I feel like the cupcakes nonsense, along with stuff like Faye saying "that's nutbags" (which the reporter almost immediately repeats, as if to reinforce that it's definitely a thing) is an attempt to emulate the bespoke/invented vocabulary of shows like nBSG, Firefly and Farscape.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 02:12
|
|
|
Q_res posted:I feel like the cupcakes nonsense, along with stuff like Faye saying "that's nutbags" (which the reporter almost immediately repeats, as if to reinforce that it's definitely a thing) is an attempt to emulate the bespoke/invented vocabulary of shows like nBSG, Firefly and Farscape. oh for sure
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 02:19
|
|
|
Crain posted:Another narrative change they made for Katerina is her ending. Originally she basically had no agency with Asimov or in her situation. That's why she wanted to escape to Mars, to be done with the life she and Asimov were stuck in, and him selling the Red Eye was their only way out of that life. But in the end, she sees that they're totally trapped, Asimov is not in control either, and in a final act of agency, decides to just kill him and end it all via Suicide by Cop. I don't disagree with you, but just wanted to ask about something from the original: I always thought that the final shot of Katarina was meant to convey that she was way more involved in the business than she let on, since she wasn't actually pregnant and had vials stuffed in her "baby bump". Did I completely misunderstand or am I just reading it differently?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 02:47
|
|
|
On episode 5, still really enjoying this. Few additional observations: - It's really funny when they're walking on a planet and cop cars drive by. Don't mind it, but it's charming. - The b-plot of ep.5 exaggerates an issue in that they injected a bunch of generic sitcom stuff into the show. I can shrug that off and plow through, but can see how that's non-negotiable for folks. "Shower bath shower" could exist in any show. - Watching this with some older people who have never seen the original. They eat that stuff up, which is also kind of charming. - God dammit Vicious. Definitely should have been left mysterious and with very limited scenes. - Dog is very cute and very good. Like I've said before, I don't think this existing does any harm to the original show, and still feel this is way better than it feels like the consensus is ruling (in my opinion). Hope Netflix at least finishes what they started and gives it a second season. In for a penny, in for a pound and what not. CatstropheWaitress fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Nov 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 04:13
|
|
|
Tender Bender posted:I don't disagree with you, but just wanted to ask about something from the original: I always thought that the final shot of Katarina was meant to convey that she was way more involved in the business than she let on, since she wasn't actually pregnant and had vials stuffed in her "baby bump". Did I completely misunderstand or am I just reading it differently? The way I phrased the situation was "She's not a part of this, but she is involved". So I don't think Katerina was part of the gang, but now that Asimov was finally making his move, she had to get involved. She was supposed to be from a hard life, so there is some implied crossover in "skills" due to that life like holding her own in a firefight.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 04:15
|
|
|
The World Inferno posted:The comparison is unavoidable given it's a remake, but I think his point is more the spirit of the choreography. The way he's moving in the anime conveys a lot – that he's toying with the guy and as he wrote, reckless. The action in the show doesn't convey that anywhere near as well, which is a shame. I'm mean, I think it's okay given the different ages in the characters? In the anime Spike is young and in this he's not. Men who were reckless at 27 usually aren't when they are 49. That's how they survived so long. Seen three episodes so far and am loving it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 04:27
|
|
|
I went back to go watch and Episode 7 is definitely my favorite of them all. Especially fond of Spike fighting the mob in the background while Jet watched his daughter's play.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 04:30
|
|
|
Xealot posted:They don't totally excise economic anxiety. The show is still pretty explicit about how almost everyone (save a small sliver of the hyper-rich) struggles to get by, and almost no one lives comfortably. Jet still barely keeps the Bebop flying, and scrounges for used parts because he can't buy anything new. Spike is still perpetually broke, though Faye's story is different (she's implied to have come from some money, to have had some kind of inheritance or trust to her name that was conned out of her, vs. the system simply being ravenous and corrupt.) And I thought the "we can't afford the taxes on a dog!" line was pretty striking show of economic anxiety from a mom who is clearly upper middle class.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 06:29
|
|
|
MadFriarAvelyn posted:I went back to go watch and Episode 7 is definitely my favorite of them all. Especially fond of Spike fighting the mob in the background while Jet watched his daughter's play. I think that's the best scene of the season. It's just so incredibly funny and well-executed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 06:54
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Poverty is displayed everywhere. Not being able to afford a dog isn't economic anxiety when the premise is that dogs are nearly extinct. It's like not being able to keep a bald eagle as a pet. Like in the original Jet's ex isn't upper middle class, she's being chased by violent loan sharks because her business went under because of the lousy local economy. The difference is that the netflix show tends to portray poverty as something disgusting instead of sad. IE in episode one, a shot of old men complaining about how much they contributed to society and how little they have to show for it is replaced with a grotesque (eyes appear rotted out, presumably from drug use) homeless man who has no lines. That change in presentation is probably why references had been removed from the 'likeable characters', like Spike, Katerina and Faye. Also, the more I watch the more I feel John Cho's Spike is a completely different character from the original. In terms of portrayal, he's way less cool and detached and much more emotionally labile. He's sarcastic instead of sardonic. His motivation is completely different as well. Sinding Johansson fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 07:11
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Poverty is displayed everywhere. poverty existing is different from the anticapitalism in the original anime op
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 07:38
|
|
|
I'm not sure I see how the original is an "anticapitalist" work. Many of the villains are political radicals in one form or another and they're often characterized as violent morons for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 07:52
|
|
|
The original isn't anti-capitalist but precarity was a major recurring theme that's been downplayed/removed entirely.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 08:01
|
|
|
y did moon go boom
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 08:07
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:I'm mean, I think it's okay given the different ages in the characters? I don't think it's an age thing, exactly. Spike isn't reckless in the anime because he's 27, he's reckless because as far as he's concerned he's already dead and he's "watching a bad dream" until he's ready to "wake up". Or in the finale of the anime: I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with an adaptation trying to do a new spin on a character, but I do think it's a bigger change to the character, his arc, and his philosophy than just being older
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 08:18
|
|
|
tokin opposition posted:y did moon go boom y did moon go boom?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 08:27
|
|
|
Sinding Johansson posted:IE in episode one, a shot of old men complaining about how much they contributed to society and how little they have to show for it is replaced with a grotesque (eyes appear rotted out, presumably from drug use) homeless man who has no lines.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 14:23
|
|
|
Just finished watching this, and I can't say I didn't enjoy it. It feels very messy and underdeveloped. There were some bits that were overt that could've used a bit more subtlety (WE GOTTA FIND THE DIRTY COP! HE'S A DIRTY COP! DIRTY COP!! being the biggest thing that stuck out to me). It could've used at least one episode that shows them competently catching a bounty and being paid well for it. Them stopping the hijacking in the anime comes to mind, it was pretty much just that once then but it makes it more believable that they do that every now and then instead of never. I enjoyed the expanded backstory on Spike, but Vicious sort of missed the mark for me, I think it was just the casting. I couldn't take the portrayal seriously. Mordiceius posted:I think the casting for Jet and Faye is perfect. Shame about… everything else. I enjoyed this portrayal of Spike. I don't know why everyone is making a big deal of Cho's age when Jet is supposed to be 36. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 14:46
|
|
|
Sinding Johansson posted:The original isn't anti-capitalist but precarity was a major recurring theme that's been downplayed/removed entirely. In the new one the guy talks about how the rich sent their dogs up into space while the poor were left behind, not sure if it's been removed entirely.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 15:05
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with an adaptation trying to do a new spin on a character no, but grabbing a main character that has something relatively unique going for it and making him a way more generic action hero is a pretty big indictment on this show imo. about as big as sub-marvel-tier quips being everywhere or having a purposefully obnoxious version of vicious that has also 10 times the screentime.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 15:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 00:17 |
|
|
Fucker posted:no, but grabbing a main character that has something relatively unique going for it and making him a way more generic action hero is a pretty big indictment on this show imo. about as big as sub-marvel-tier quips being everywhere or having a purposefully obnoxious version of vicious that has also 10 times the screentime. Saw a write up about this yesterday: Why does everyone in Netflix's Cowboy Bebop talk like that? TL;DR: We're entering the generation of screenwriters and directors who grew up watching Buffy, Angel, and Firefly and Joss Whedon's (pre-cancellation) success with the Marvel MCU has cemented "Whedon Speak" as the tone that producers and backers demand because that's what "works", which feeds into the host of people who grew up wanting to make their own versions of those shows, quip and asides complete. It doesn't help that they grabbed a host of MCU writers and producers to helm this show, which paradoxically includes one of the head writers from Thor: Ragnarok, the best MCU film.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 15:50
|
|