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DoubleT2172 posted:Best way to get a raise is find a new job I acknowledged that in my post. I understand that but it is not specifically what I'm asking for tips on.
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Nov 21, 2021 00:28
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Communicate your expectations clearly. Unfortunately, review and cost-of-living increase time is a bad time to get a big raise, but if you're trying to get an extra 2-3 bucks that might be reasonably easy. Listen to what they say about when it might be possible, it's rare for a manager to have power to just OK a raise, so they will probably tell you when something is possible if they want to spend the political capital. I wouldn't say "If I leave you'll be in trouble", they either know that or you're wrong. So saying it outloud either doesn't help you or makes you look like an idiot. I'd just say something like "I really enjoy working here and I have expectations that I should be at a market rate of xyz, what kind of timeline do you think is realistic?" and then make your decision if it makes sense to stay or not. A review is a fine time to say that, or during any kind of 1 on 1.
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Nov 21, 2021 01:03
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81sidewinder posted:This is loving insane and it's even more insane that they told you this before you were even hired. I know you need a job ASAP, but this is honestly one of the most clear red flags you could be given. There are some positives to balance against this red flag though. Glassdoor reviews are higher than I've ever seen in the polymer industry. The plant is clean and safe. Employee retention is very high. So, I know its a red flag, and I appreciate everyone's support in this thread. If we can come to terms, I know it'll be a calculated risk.
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Nov 21, 2021 01:27
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How Rude posted:Hi all, I'm currently working fully work from home remotely (and expected to work in this capacity going forward) and am having performance reviews. From all accounts by my managers they are more than satisfied with my work and impressed with my performance, though I am awaiting their official responses before I talk to them about a raise. I do though want to point that: If your current management would be immensely inconvenienced, they're poo poo managers. Everyone's replaceable. If you go to your boss and use that argument, their first priority is likely to minimize the downside risk of you leaving, reducing your leverage.
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Nov 21, 2021 01:35
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Shrieking Muppet posted:The corporate thread suggested this would be a good place to ask about negotiating a sign on bonus. My wife was waffling on accepting an offer and they doubled her sign on bonus and would pay out half up front to sweeten the offer Sign on bonuses can be eleventy billion dollars because it's nonrecurring revenue and comes out of HR's starting bonus budget I started a new job this year and asked for 10% starting bonus, ended up with about a 3% but we work in different industries/job titles
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Nov 21, 2021 01:41
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How Rude posted:Hi all, I'm currently working fully work from home remotely (and expected to work in this capacity going forward) and am having performance reviews. From all accounts by my managers they are more than satisfied with my work and impressed with my performance, though I am awaiting their official responses before I talk to them about a raise. i'm in a similar position right now and would appreciate any advice the thread could offer. CoL isn't really impacting me, but i'd prefer to stay ahead of the curve since i'm effectively one of the most senior people in my company in terms of tenure (almost 9 years in a relatively young company). i am currently a pretty high up consultant that's pivotal to two departments that are about the receive an absolutely massive amount of new work. my current strategy is: - we're getting finalized dept budget soon, so i'm trying to get this in 3 weeks beforehand. - i'm going to make the case that due to this influx of work and the amount of institutional knowledge i have, it's important to me that i receive some additional compensation. -- this would be done in a pretty bulletpoint fashion. we expect x% new work. i am about 6 months ahead of integrating into my new team and already making productivity improvements for the team. human encyclopedia that would cause enormous brain-drain if i left (not in those specific words, but reminding that while anyone is always fireable, i'd sting pretty hard in terms of backfill) yadda yadda. that said, i kinda hosed myself over. the position's initial budget was higher but i was desparate to leave my old department (which bit me in the rear end, but i'm way happier now) so i know the extra money "exists" even if that's now how it technically works. i'm not sure if i should bring that point up. ultimately it probably comes down to whereever HR puts me at in terms of churn risk and 9boxing or whatever, and if they'll throw the extra money at me for that, so trying to find ways to subtly reinforce that i'm worth throwing more dollars at comparatively seems like the best bet. but yeah, if anyone has any thoughts and what kind of numbers i should ballpark (they hold all the cards, so no high expectations, but it absolutely cannot hurt imo. both my managers are extremely happy with me) im always open to any additional advice people have, or if i should scrap/add anything to that strategy. to be clear, i have no real desire to move companies, but i would at least like to try making more money at my current company because i think i'm underpaid a bit and would like to be overpaid a bit (but i have a job that's so hyperniche that its genuinely hard to comp it against anything besides other jobs i could potentially get). anime was right fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 07:03
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anime was right posted:i'm in a similar position right now and would appreciate any advice the thread could offer. CoL isn't really impacting me, but i'd prefer to stay ahead of the curve since i'm effectively one of the most senior people in my company in terms of tenure (almost 9 years in a relatively young company). i am currently a pretty high up consultant that's pivotal to two departments that are about the receive an absolutely massive amount of new work. Get an outside offer and take it IMO.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:02
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leper khan posted:Get an outside offer and take it IMO. i would prefer not to because literally everything else about my current job is very, very good and i will probably not find better work/life balance elsewhere!
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Nov 22, 2021 19:49
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If you're a key person, schedule a meeting with your boss, explain this to him/her and give them your salary expectations as a principal X employee. There's no forcing mechanism in an org like that to review your salary otherwise If that doesn't work go find something else. If you don't want to move then they're paying you the correct market value
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Nov 22, 2021 20:11
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if you're not willing to walk it'll be an uphill battle to get your comp up to market it's worth having the conversation of course, but they've got you over a barrel
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Nov 22, 2021 20:49
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anime was right posted:i would prefer not to because literally everything else about my current job is very, very good and i will probably not find better work/life balance elsewhere! Leave on good terms and come back a year or two later. If you're as important as you say, they'll easily take you back, because you'll still be actively missed. You'll get a better offer, both comp as well as title (assuming your title isn't capped currently)
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Nov 22, 2021 21:20
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Guinness posted:it's worth having the conversation of course This is not necessarily true. I'll come back to that. how rude and Anime, I know you're disappointed that you're not getting the detailed how-to answer that you were hoping for when you took the time to ask a detailed question of this thread. Sorry about that. Let me try to explain as best I can why we don't have a satisfying answer for you. The tl;dr version is this: Asking your employer for a raise is not negotiation. To have a negotiation, you need two parties which each have something the other party wants. In this case, the employer has something you want (more money). You do not have anything they want. What they want from you (your time, energy, and skills) they already have. Thus, you can't negotiate. All you can do is try to persuade them to give you more money. Persuasion is one of the most critical skills you can develop, and you definitely should invest a lot of time and energy in developing it. But it's not quite within the scope of the Negotiation Thread, hence why you're not getting the answers you hoped for. You can take the approach of saying, professionally and diplomatically, "give me a raise or I'll have to look elsewhere". The obvious first problem with that approach, though, is that by your own assertion in this thread, you have no intention of actually going elsewhere. So unless you're a sociopath you probably aren't good at bluffing and aren't going to be very convincing. The other problem is more insidious. Supposing they do take your implicit threat to leave seriously. Simply having this conversation with them will provoke them to immediately, and by immediately I mean before the end of the same day you talk to them, start taking steps to make you less essential. If they agree to give you the raise you want, chances are very strong that six months or so down the road they will abruptly fire you, once they've suitably prepared to replace you with someone cheaper. I know you're thinking "no way, that can't happen here." Maybe you're right. Just know that most people who have thought that turned out to be wrong, and keep your eyes open. If you're really happy with your job other than the pay and not willing to seriously consider walking to another job, then my advice is actually not to ask for a raise. Doing so will make your employer aware that you consider yourself underpaid, and they will (very rationally) assume you henceforward to be a Flight Risk and will prepare for your departure. They may merely take Just In Case steps to make you less generally essential--or, once they feel adequately prepared, they may just go ahead and replace you preemptively, because for them it's a lot easier to replace you on a timetable of their choosing than of yours. If your position is more that you'd rather not leave the company, but you know you're underpaid and will leave to get more money if you have to--then you should go ahead and quietly line up some interviews. It will at least give you a better read on your true market value if nothing else, and it's massively +EV for you to break out of your little Comfort Box and stretch yourself. It really, really is. A relatively informal conversation with your boss to the effect of "I feel I can grow into more and more valuable responsibilities, can we lay out a road map for that to happen?" can certainly be had if you feel optimistic about a positive outcome. But you absolutely should at least go into it aware of everything I wrote above, and be prepared for what may come. addendum: repeating what's been said before, the worst possible time to ask for a raise is during the review cycle. The entire point of the review cycle is to prevent raises from being given. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 21:52
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They weren’t even my questions but I want to say I appreciate the time and effort invested in that answer. 
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Nov 22, 2021 22:12
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Not OP, but with the above in mind, how do I negotiate with my current place while I'm in the process of being promoted, against a likely offer from the place I'm interviewing at? I'm speaking to my 2up boss tomorrow who will be my new boss when promoted. The promotion will (apparently) take effect at the beginning of 2021. I'll discuss the exact content of the role tomorrow, but have already been told I will be promoted. I think I can't let on that I'm interviewing; is it OK to (gently) say I want confirmation of the date of promotion in writing, and I need to know the salary bump? And then negotiate from there? I don't have a competing offer in my hand but expect one soon. I got a rebalancing salary hike this year so expect I'm likely still paid under what I could get. If asked directly if I'm interviewing I plan to deflect with "I'm sure everyone is being contacted for new positions a lot at the moment" and "I don't want to leave". REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:They weren’t even my questions but I want to say I appreciate the time and effort invested in that answer. Same 
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Nov 22, 2021 22:25
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I don't mind giving a flat "Yes" to that question. "I love it here and hope to be here a long time but sure, I'm keeping aware of my options like anyone would." It's +EV to just go ahead and let 'em know you have options, IMO. Being promoted is a negotiating situation--you do in this case have something they want but don't yet have, i.e. your services in an enhanced role--but your BATNA on the surface is very weak. Your BATNA is declining the promotion and staying in your current job, but doing so is pretty much taking one step out the door. So actually in this specific case I think it definitely does much more good than harm to your position to just go ahead and let them know that yes, you are interviewing elsewhere, if they ask. Put them on notice that your BATNA is stronger than they were hoping. But of course you have to be willing to bear the risk that it results in your departure from the company (which is no problem if you do, in fact, have at least one reasonable offer from elsewhere).
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Nov 22, 2021 22:35
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Curious what thread regulars will think about this, but in the case of "negotiating"raises, I think a lot about how some things are more powerful said, and some more powerful unsaid, and that offers and promotions/ raises carry a great deal of actual communication over and above whatever words HR says. It is no great revelation to the company that employees can go get employed elsewhere. They know that. It's baseline. So how they react to that, in how they proactively reward experience and performance in their company, is a very settled management choice. If I start talking to someone who negotiates with people daily, for their job, when my job is exercising far different IC/ analytic tools, I'm not going to be doing it all that well, and I'm telling them something they knew, absolutely knew, before I walked in their door. They know it in their sleep and they have a culture, a norm, around how they want to manage retention. Whatever basic conversation I start is going to go off kinda like if they tried to walk me through 2+2 or hello world like those are revolutionary and should motivate me to modify my day to day priority list and decisions I'm weighing. I certainly make my managers know I'm interested in career growth, I may have informal conversations around which specific skills they want to see me develop, what criteria they consider when evaluating performance, etc. This is made far easier because my company invests a lot in leadership development, and I'm in a program intended to allow analytic ICs to either develop into senor IC roles or determine if they are interested in moving to people management. So it's very easy to ask questions with dual purpose of learning what they are looking for in context of considering hypothetical future (or real, but limited) cases of increased responsibilities. That said, I do pay very close attention to what actual raises I get, not to negotiate them, but to reality-check their nice language around retention and employee development. So far they are sending the right signals in action rather than just talk, but if I believed I was significantly underpaid over time and no action was taken to change that, I already consider that as very loud communication and I wouldn't really see what I could gain in engaging them in remedial basics of employee retention rather than going and finding a company where this isn't going to continously be an issue. Even if you "win" one round and you are not marked as flight risk and let go.... you STILL are demonstrably at a company that does not value retaining you enough to be proactive and in very little time you'll be back to being underpaid again.
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Nov 22, 2021 23:08
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I do think it is a very important insight that it's critical to weigh what you see a company or anyone within it do much, much more heavily than what you hear a company or anyone within it say. When you've been with a company a year, it's usually pretty easy to understand their philosophy about employee acquistion, retention and dismissal--if you're paying attention to the right signals. And also, no matter what is said to you, if you've been with a company for years and have never gotten anything more than annual COL increases, then the harsh, blunt truth is that the organization may be satisfied with your work but it has no interest in utilizing you in any greater role and won't really care if you leave, beyond the immediate inconvenience of replacing you. If the company really values you, they'll proactively seek your development (because they believe it will benefit them). Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 23:20
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Eric the Mauve posted:If the company really values you, they'll proactively seek your development (because they believe it will benefit them). Well done thread, got all the bases covered 
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Nov 23, 2021 02:45
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Eric the Mauve posted:I know you're thinking "no way, that can't happen here." Maybe you're right. Just know that most people who have thought that turned out to be wrong, and keep your eyes open. People often think they won't be replaced because their boss likes them and appreciates them. If they're high performers, she probably does. However, salary negotiations and retention strategies are usually decided at least two levels above a front line technical manager. When you sit down to ask your boss for a raise, remember that you're really asking the CTO or even the CEO. And they don't give a single gently caress about you in relation to the business. Also, speaking from personal experience, technical managers want to pay people more. It makes your job as a technical manager much, much easier if you have the freedom to pay above market. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 14:24
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That's a really good insight.
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Nov 23, 2021 16:12
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One of my friends, who manages about 20 people, says the main way his performance is measured is how many people he can get promoted. It seems like they at least have an understanding that skilled, compensated employees are good for the company.
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Nov 23, 2021 16:32
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Dik Hz posted:When you sit down to ask your boss for a raise, remember that you're really asking the CTO or even the CEO. I want to tell the one asking me for a raise right now this. I want to give you money, but don't over play your hand!
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Nov 23, 2021 17:30
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Dik Hz posted:However, salary negotiations and retention strategies are usually decided at least two levels above a front line technical manager. When you sit down to ask your boss for a raise, remember that you're really asking the CTO or even the CEO. And they don't give a single gently caress about you in relation to the business. My manager and director weren't at all involved in my most recent retention attempt, the CTO and VP of Development were the ones making the decisions and the director was just told the end result. As far as I can tell, the manager wasn't involved at all.
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Nov 23, 2021 17:34
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Epitope posted:I want to tell the one asking me for a raise right now this. I want to give you money, but don't over play your hand! Explain why you can't tell them exactly this?
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Nov 23, 2021 18:22
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81sidewinder posted:Explain why you can't tell them exactly this? I thought I did, but probably wasn't clear. We'll see if I get another chance
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Nov 23, 2021 18:38
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On that point: sometimes, your immediate superior is in fact negotiating on your behalf. I learned that when I put in for a raise, after informing said supervisor that I would do so, and she called me after negotiations and told me that I was absolutely not deserving. It sucked, but she was terrible in general, so I gave my notice the same month I think. The point being, sometimes, your immediate supervisor can be your ally in negotiations, and also it sucks extra if they're terrible.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:47
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It's good cop/bad cop by design. Unfortunately the bad cop has the majority of the power.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:55
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81sidewinder posted:Explain why you can't tell them exactly this? Do we call this “the man behind the curtain fallacy” or something?
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Nov 23, 2021 19:14
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We got to meet 1 on 1. I didn't say "don't overplay your hand" since that seems patronizing, but maybe I should have? We'll see how the group meeting goes. I did say good cop bad cop a few days ago
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Nov 23, 2021 21:12
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Kind of an odd question. Accepted an offer ~3 months ago and as part of the offer to get my to my desired a comp they included a number of scheduled raises based on meeting certain benchmarks (with an expectation of hitting those within 6 months). I've met all but one of them so far and gotten the raises, with the last one on the near horizon. We're also at yearly comp increase - is it typical to get your increase and then to get the scheduled benchmark raise on top of that? What should I ask for here? Should the % bump be inclusive of the total comp included the yet-to-be-awarded raise, that I expect to get within ~2 months?
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Nov 23, 2021 21:44
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Upgrade posted:Kind of an odd question. Accepted an offer ~3 months ago and as part of the offer to get my to my desired a comp they included a number of scheduled raises based on meeting certain benchmarks (with an expectation of hitting those within 6 months). I've met all but one of them so far and gotten the raises, with the last one on the near horizon. We're also at yearly comp increase - is it typical to get your increase and then to get the scheduled benchmark raise on top of that? What should I ask for here? Should the % bump be inclusive of the total comp included the yet-to-be-awarded raise, that I expect to get within ~2 months?
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Nov 23, 2021 23:58
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What I really wonder is whether (a) OP's raise this year was assumed to be zero when OP's boss was given their budget for raises, or (b) It wasn't, but OP's boss will give OP zero raise because "you already got yours" to free up more money for the rest of their team, or (c) OP will actually get a COLA. My best guess at the probabilities would be 70% A, 25% B, 5% C.
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Nov 24, 2021 00:00
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It’s more that raises weren’t expected this year but they are happening now due to influx of money/labor market/economic recovery. Also I probably shouldn’t complain because I negotiated very aggressively (thanks to this thread) and got a very good offer. They’ve also been very good about giving raises when I meet benchmarks - they’re tracking it on their own so I don’t have to do anything! I’ll just talk to them and see what happens. Upgrade fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 00:04
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah that's really aggravating. I mean it's pretty transparent that they're going to come back and say "CEO approved your salary request but not the extra PTO so that's our firm offer." (Which might be pretty much what you had in mind as you're willing to sigh and accept?) To recap: After resisting the external recruiter trying to anchor me at market -25%, I negotiated for market, got countered at market -$15k, recountered at market -$8k + 2 weeks, accepted market -$8k + 1 week. Bennies are really good, though and there is a clear career trajectory. Overall, kinda miffed by the process but I'm happy to take the offer. The red flags y'all spotted are noted, though. I'm going to put this one in the win column.
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Nov 24, 2021 00:09
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Hey, congrats!
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Nov 24, 2021 00:14
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Dik Hz posted:CEO came back with +1 week instead of my proposed +2 weeks and I accepted.  that's a bingo
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Nov 24, 2021 01:02
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Nice, glad to hear you're getting out of there.
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Nov 24, 2021 02:17
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Eric the Mauve posted:I don't mind giving a flat "Yes" to that question. "I love it here and hope to be here a long time but sure, I'm keeping aware of my options like anyone would." It's +EV to just go ahead and let 'em know you have options, IMO. Thanks, Éric. I didn't get asked if I am interviewing, but set the expectation that I need an effective date for the promotion and compensation details. I think the trap is set. The likely timeline is that NewCo will make an offer and CurrentCo will drag their feet on the above, at which point I'll have a BATNA and will require X salary on Y date to take the promotion. This thread is great
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Nov 24, 2021 07:32
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I suspect I am going to keep looking and bail on this offer. Advertised at X-Y, with "up to 2X!" DOE, and I have been told they're very impressed and wish to offer me X-25%. This would be equivalent to going back in time three years and dropping one professional cert and a Master's Degree from my CV, so... I guess the UK pays poo poo wages? Start date is ages away, so if I accept this I will keep looking and just bail if better arrives. BATNA is unemployment, but my wife is lolpaid and we were saving for a house in Dublin before having to move to London for her career so that's fine for a few months TBH.
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Nov 26, 2021 16:01
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Arquinsiel posted:I suspect I am going to keep looking and bail on this offer. Advertised at X-Y, with "up to 2X!" DOE, and I have been told they're very impressed and wish to offer me X-25%. This would be equivalent to going back in time three years and dropping one professional cert and a Master's Degree from my CV, so... You could say you liked the team/role/company but you meed y+25% to sign. Probably best to walk away if they switch and bait like this.
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Nov 26, 2021 16:33
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