|
If it's shitpost time, then let me say I look forward to Winter War 2 and the Finlandization of Ukraine.
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:09 |
|
|
That’s just them setting up a forward bastion against the Korean offensive.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:and perhaps thinking the current situation as his last best chance to reverse NATO encroachment. Poor widdle Russia, her feelings are hurt that her neighbouring countries are entering a mutual defense pact instead of letting her annex them, and she just can't help herself but lash out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2021 23:51
|
|
|
Xarn posted:Poor widdle Russia, her feelings are hurt that her neighbouring countries are entering a mutual defense pact instead of letting her annex them, and she just can't help herself but lash out. Russia is so weak it must liberate eastern Kiev to prevent the west from destroying it's strong powerful army.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 00:01
|
|
|
Xarn posted:Poor widdle Russia, her feelings are hurt that her fixed. if you're in Russia's sphere of influence you cannot associate with the outside world, it is forbidden. also spheres of influence as a geopolitical theory is cool and good and valid
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 00:07
|
|
|
Thanks, that was a silly mistake to make.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 00:08
|
|
|
CMYK BLYAT! posted:fixed. Богатая Russia will have its place in the sun once we own the Czechs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 00:11
|
|
|
The stabbed in the back by evil west and humiliation myth is funny since countries that were ruthlessly occupied and humiliated (Japan, Germany) turned out pretty well and Russia left to do its own thing developed into a gulag with government deaths squads and prison for insulting the feelings of believers The correct thing to do was to burn lubyanka and open the archives to dismantle the police state instead of letting it take over
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
Somaen posted:The stabbed in the back by evil west and humiliation myth is funny since countries that were ruthlessly occupied and humiliated (Japan, Germany) turned out pretty well and Russia left to do its own thing developed into a gulag with government deaths squads and prison for insulting the feelings of believers Russia did great until 1994. Japan and Germany were given massive loans by the US. Let's not forget those facts when saying Russia should have laid down and died in 1948
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 00:53
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Russia did great until 1994. Japan and Germany were given massive loans by the US. Let's not forget those facts when saying Russia should have laid down and died in 1948 The 90's weren't particularly kind to Russia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 01:05
|
|
|
Can't argue with the "occupy and give loans" solution, seems to work out well. Looks like we solved the Russia problem folks
Somaen fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 01:14
|
|
|
HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:The 90's weren't particularly kind to Russia. I think that's what he's saying - that Japan and Germany received additional support which Russia didn't get
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 01:17
|
|
|
Yes that is what I'm trying to say, I just mean Germany was giving those loans to act as a bulwark against the ussr, while Russia was actively crushed by US global partners at all turns. And the US ran Germany with Nazis post war. So I don't understand the ops arguing that the USSR should have laid down to US conquest "be in a better position" because in the 1990s the USSR Fell and suffered the largest loss of human life expectancy in a long time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 01:29
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:What if Neville Chamberlain spoke Reddit. Do you think the US has national interests? Do you think that US and allies have the resources to essentially sign a mutual defense treaty with every country on earth? The American leadership certainly doesn’t think it does. The last two democratic presidents have clearly articulated a desire to pull resources out of Europe and recenter on Asia + Pacific, and Trump “articulated” a similar desire. The fact is that Russia views Ukraine as existential(https://nationalinterest.org/feature/russia-poised-invade-ukraine-196836), the United States does not (whole thing is worth watching though Haring is absent for most of the video so it is a little more lopsided towards my view, so its full of ex-CIA cspam tankies!). In general, its not a good move to expend immense energy in areas that are not related to core interests, and the US knows this and will not. This is the world as it actually is, this is not an endorsement of how it should be. Biden has clearly articulated a desire to recenter American FP with its national interests. Weak and peripheral states being eaten up is the reality of interstate competition a multipolar system. The US and its allies are not going to weaken their position for areas which are outside of their interest. Vladimir Putin is not Hitler, at least not until whichever degenerative brain disease he has according to the tabloids works its magic. He does not desire a Final Struggle with the world to show the superiority of the Russian race. Nor even conclusively defeat the West. (Hitler was surprised and a little disappointed Munich ended in peace). His actions indicate he wants a unified SoI and to essentially neutralize areas of direct competition, while also benefiting from triangulation in the US-China confrontation. He is much more 19th century autocrat than 20th century totalitarian. Equating withdrawing from direct competition in areas outside of a state’s national interest with collaboration with only leads to increased escalation which neither side actually wants. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Nov 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 04:03
|
|
|
I don't think that free people practicing democracy should be sacrificed to autocrats, period. We should stand behind Ukraine. We should stand behind Taiwan. The 21st century should be democracies supporting and defending each other. If that means a conflict with Putin the Poisoner then so be it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 04:08
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:The fact is that Russia views Ukraine as existential Russia does want and should want a strong, amicable, mutually beneficial relationship with states on it borders for a variety of reasons, doubly so those with which it has strong (though not always pleasant) historical relationships. They've unfortunately largely squandered their chances for such between massive endemic corruption, poor governance, and launching military incursions against the states that hinted that they maybe weren't so interested in massive endemic corruption and poor governance and were considering looking elsewhere for allies. Your old bunkmates considering moving in with your historic enemies because you're a massive asshat isn't an excuse to get stabby. It may be prudent geopolitically after you've squandered all your other opportunities, but it's still a desperate dick move.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 04:26
|
|
|
How are u posted:I don't think that free people practicing democracy should be sacrificed to autocrats, period. We should stand behind Ukraine. We should stand behind Taiwan. The 21st century should be democracies supporting and defending each other. If that means a conflict with Putin the Poisoner then so be it. I agree, but instead the free people practicing democracy will shoot for half-measures that only kick the can down the road while increasing kinetic risks. Like I can already tell there'll be a bunch of economic sanctions that will make people in safe Western capitals feel good about themselves while hurting the Russian economy and the average Russian very badly, yet doing not a drat thing that actually hurts the oligarchs or Putin or the war chest they've spent the last three years compiling. The Ukranians meanwhile will get a bunch of weapons they aren't really trained to use. And the Russian military, if they know what they're doing and the weather is cooperative, will beat the living poo poo out of the Ukranians while NATO flies patrols over the Black Sea and postures but does little of actual consequence. The rest I already discussed - Poland and the Baltics will be heavily militarized, Putin can treat that as a boogeyman, the MIC profits, and we all hope the constant saber rattling doesn't spark into out-of-control escalation as the world goes to poo poo from ecological collapse.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 04:58
|
|
|
How are u posted:I don't think that free people practicing democracy should be sacrificed to autocrats, period. We should stand behind Ukraine. We should stand behind Taiwan. The 21st century should be democracies supporting and defending each other. If that means a conflict with Putin the Poisoner then so be it. That's great. Here's the thing. The US and allies can only be in so many places at once, like all polities that have ever existed, they have limited power. The US has been explicit on Ukraine. It does not have an obligation to defend it and won't. Taiwan has been left intentionally ambiguous. CMYK BLYAT! posted:Russia does want and should want a strong, amicable, mutually beneficial relationship with states on it borders for a variety of reasons, doubly so those with which it has strong (though not always pleasant) historical relationships. They've unfortunately largely squandered their chances for such between massive endemic corruption, poor governance, and launching military incursions against the states that hinted that they maybe weren't so interested in massive endemic corruption and poor governance and were considering looking elsewhere for allies. It's not about excuses or explanations its about dealing with the situation we have.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:02
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:The US has been explicit on Ukraine. It does not have an obligation to defend it and won't. What about the security assurances they signed to get Ukraine to give up its nuclear arsenal?
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:17
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:In general, its not a good move to expend immense energy in areas that are not related to core interests, and the US knows this and will not. Vasukhani posted:His actions indicate he wants a unified SoI and to essentially neutralize areas of direct competition Your simple portrayal of the situation is unreasonably myopic. Perhaps intentionally so  Conspiratiorist posted:And the Russian military, if they know what they're doing and the weather is cooperative, will beat the living poo poo out of the Ukranians while NATO flies patrols over the Black Sea and postures but does little of actual consequence.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:31
|
|
|
spacetoaster posted:What about the security assurances they signed to get Ukraine to give up its nuclear arsenal? reread the actual Budapest memorandum. Russia is in violation of it, but that does not mean that the US has an obligation to defend Ukraine. It is not a mutual defense treaty, rather a promise on the part of all parties to not violate the sovereignty of Ukraine. Its enforcement mechanism is a conversation at the security council.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:41
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:Lol, maybe you're not a native English speaker, but a boogeyman typically refers to a false threat. If Russia beats the living poo poo out of Ukraine, as you said, it's not the boogeyman, it's the wolf at the gate and it's got a taste for blood. Oh, so you're saying Russians would be fully justified in feeling threatened by said militarization? Yes, that can only end well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:49
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:Where are you getting that the US is "expending immense energy"? While there surely is a limit to how many things the State Department can effectively juggle at one time, it's ridiculous to think that it can't pursue its core interests in Europe at the same time as it does in Asia (and, yes, a friendly Europe and a non-aggro Russia absolutely are a core US interest). I'm getting all of this from what American policy makers and intelligence staff have said publicly, including the literal former head of Russia analysis in that webinar I linked. Ukraine isn't a core interest. It's not about the state department juggling, its literally hard power deployments. Effective relations with other major powers is a core interest but one far below preventing attacks against allies. A generalized european war would harm American strategy much more than it would help it. And the US certainly isn't going to risk killing 2/3rds of its population for a country it has no treaty obligation with. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Nov 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:50
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:A generalized european war would harm American strategy much more than it would help it. And the US certainly isn't going to risk killing 2/3rds of its population for a country it has no treaty obligation with. I said it before but after Afghanistan, and despite him being one of the chief architects of the past 20 years of American policy irt Russia, I don't think Sleepy Joe is risking any American bodybags over Ukraine. He's got no spine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 05:59
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:I said it before but after Afghanistan, and despite him being one of the chief architects of the past 20 years of American policy irt Russia, I don't think Sleepy Joe is risking any American bodybags over Ukraine. He's got no spine. The problem with Sleepy Joe is that he's stupid (as well as everything else you said too). The news coverage of the Afghan withdrawal was painting him as weak and he responded by blowing up an aid worker's family and claiming it was a strike against ISIS. He obviously told his military staff to kill someone, anyone, so that he could go on TV and make the claim that he was fighting back. He just didn't count on being found out so quickly. He might not be as likely as Hillary was to start shooting down Russian planes, but I wouldn't put it past him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:05
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:I'm getting all of this from what American policy makers and intelligence staff have said publicly, including the literal former head of Russia analysis in that webinar I linked. Ukraine isn't a core interest. It's not about the state department juggling, its literally hard power deployments.  . Vasukhani posted:A generalized european war would harm American strategy much more than it would help it. And the US certainly isn't going to risk killing 2/3rds of its population for a country it has no treaty obligation with. The argument applies to both sides, but you choose to place the onus to back down on those defending the victim... why is that? Conspiratiorist posted:Oh, so you're saying Russians would be fully justified in feeling threatened by said militarization? Yes, that can only end well. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:17
|
|
|
Love how it is presumed that appeasement actions would surely result in predictable deal-respecting behaviour from mobsters that have zero ways to interact with the world outside of saber rattling and turning the gas valve.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:19
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:A generalized european war would harm Russian strategy much more than it would help it. And Russia certainly isn't going to risk killing 2/3rds of its population for a country it is only interested in because the victim is weak. Ukraine is an existential interest for Russia -- specifically preventing Ukraine from becoming the keystone of an extended cordon sanitaire. It is not an existential, or even close to main, interest for the US and allies. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Nov 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:28
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:Love how it is presumed that appeasement actions would surely result in predictable deal-respecting behaviour from mobsters that have zero ways to interact with the world outside of saber rattling and turning the gas valve. Yes, it's almost like the international system is a state of anarchy where only hard power really matters. We should absolutely not base our policy around this idea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:29
|
|
|
"Let the Bold strategy
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:31
|
|
|
Wistful of Dollars posted:"Let the More like don't unintentionally escalate over things you have no desire to fight for
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:37
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:As I pointed out, a friendly Europe and a non-aggro Russia are a core interest. Guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality will go a long way on those interests. The question is does a "non-aggro" russia mean predictable competition with a sovereign state, or the limited sovereignty a European client state. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Nov 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
I take it you don't live or have family in EE, Vasukhani?
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:51
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:Guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality will go a long way on those interests. That's easy. Russia just needs to withdraw all troops from Crimea and Donbass.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:51
|
|
|
Rinkles posted:I take it you don't live or have family in EE, Vasukhani? definitly not any I particularly want to see become a number in NATO-Russia war plans. I work in an EE capital unrelated to the question and plan on going back post-covid wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Nov 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:52
|
|
|
We're going to have to go back to the spheres thread title if this keeps up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:53
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:That's easy. Russia just needs to withdraw all troops from Crimea and Donbass. Cool, but lets operate in the realm of reality where Russia remains a sovereign state that desires to become more powerful
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 06:54
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:Cool, but lets operate in the realm of reality where Russia remains a sovereign state that desires to become more powerful Why is this kind of determinism applied only to Russia? Why shouldn't we, or Russia for that matter, similarly operate in a reality where NATO remains a growing military alliance that accepts more and more countries that, among other things, are not happy with Russia's desire to become more powerful?
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 07:02
|
|
|
Why the gently caress are American neo Nazis talking about Corneliu Zelea Codreanu. Can anyone explain this to me? The US thread is prolly not the place as your all eastern Europe explainers or dwellers and have a better pulse on this
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 07:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:09 |
|
|
Paladinus posted:Why is this kind of determinism applied only to Russia? Why shouldn't we, or Russia for that matter, similarly operate in a reality where NATO remains a growing military alliance that accepts more and more countries that, among other things, are not happy with Russia's desire to become more powerful? Russia does operate in that reality, or at least it's leadership believes it does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2021 07:07
|
|