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Notahippie posted:Agree, but on the other hand "For those heroes out there running their own Warhammer events, we’d love for you to join us in this [kick out nazis] stance" is weaksauce. I'd have preferred them to say "if you don't do this we will stop letting you use our ip" That's a thing you say in a letter to an offending party, said letter tailored to the facts of the case and the laws of the relevant jurisdiction, not in a broad statement intended to apply worldwide. EDIT: Also, "We will come after you for using our IP if the use is offensive or brings our IP into disrepute" in the recently-updated fan works policy already kind of sends this signal. I seem to recall a lot of tears shed when that policy was sent out, so GW not defaulting to aggressive legal threats may well be an attempt not to conflate this drama with that drama. Warthur fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 15:33
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Warthur posted:Exactly. I have no problem with TERFs and Klansmen being caught in the penumbra of GW's broad "hate groups can gently caress off" statement.
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Nov 19, 2021 16:05
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Was boosting the nazi's signal the desired outcome?
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Nov 19, 2021 16:25
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Impermanent posted:oh, none of them have done anything at all and many of them fall hook line and sinker for nazi myths about how elite their troops were and the supposed superiority of their armored vehicles. Historical wargaming - tabletop hex-and-counter games - was at its height in the 70s and 80s. Since then they've been in steady decline as most gamers who want to play a strategy game or simulation don't always enjoy reading dense rulebooks and cross referencing dice rolls on dozens of charts to see if their tank's gun hit and knocked out the other tank: :strip_icc()/pic294392.jpg) These days computer games fill that role. The few hex-and-counter wargame companies that survive are still - with a few exceptions - a product of that time, and most (again, with exceptions) of their players are aging boomers who grew up with TV shows like Rat Patrol and Hogan's Heroes and Nazi generals' memoirs as their mains source of information on the Wehrmacht, especially the "Russian Front." During the 70s and 80s even the serious historiography was different than it is today. This was the height of the "Nazis as honorable adversaries" and "Soviets as faceless fanatic hordes from the East" mindset. It was hard to get views that countered this -after all, the German Generals were publishing (self-serving) "we fought a clean war/the REAL enemy is Communism" books by the truckload, and the story from the USSR was transparently obviously sanitized propaganda, nothing but stories of Heroes of the Soviet Union with no real analysis. Given this dearth of information wargames were a recapitulation of this mindset - the elite Germans fought the fanatic Soviet hordes - as there was no real way to get better military or strategically relevant information until the collapse of the Soviet Union allowed historians to go to the Soviet archives and start digging up the real - and more interesting - story. Miniatures wargames are an outgrowth of this. They're still well behind what modern academic military historians understand about WW2, but they're making gradual progress. Cessna fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 16:43
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I agree seeing GW directly say "gently caress-off Nazi's" would've been great, but enough alt-right people delude themselves into separating themselves from the Nazi label, that it wouldn't get the effect we hope it would. Plus, I've seen enough interviews where these people treat getting banned as a victory over the offended SJW's, so they'd probably see GW even acknowledging them as Nazi's as a twisted acknowledgement & victory. And, others could spin it into a talking point, that "GW is calling everyone they don't agree with a NAZI??" Dealing with Fascists becomes a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum real quick, that's why it's best to just weed them out before it gets to be a problem Desfore fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 16:51
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mellonbread posted:This paper from my alma mater has some good discussion of why the plan for a joint invasion of Gibraltar (the primary thing the Nazis wanted from Spain) never went anywhere. It's a bit dated (written in 1958 when Franco was still alive and ruler of Spain) so IDK if it's been superseded by more recent sources. Thank you very much!
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Nov 19, 2021 19:15
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quote:If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community. This part is pretty pointed and direct and well worded. Surprisingly good statement and I hope there was more done to punish the TOs behind the scenes. Better yet, I'd prefer they actually issue rules for all organized play stating this and not just limit it to official GW stuff.
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Nov 19, 2021 19:26
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I think that brushes up against when TOs were unpaid employees like back in the Outrider days. Organized play took a big hit legally when "we pay you in promos!" stopped cutting it. Warhammer "organized play" is functionally just playing at the GW Warhammer store, which they do have control over. I think, and I don't mean this derisively, this is the best response they could have made.
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Nov 19, 2021 19:41
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https://spikeybits.com/2021/11/warhammer-isnt-for-everyone-especially-these-nazis.html The TOs apparently contacted Spikey Bits, claiming they couldn't do anything because under Spanish law it is illegal for them to kick dudes out over being Nazis? I have no idea if this is actually true of Spanish law. Since they claim to be revising their rules to fix the issue I think there's poo poo here that doesn't make sense about their claim that they couldn't do anything at the time.
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Nov 19, 2021 20:25
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Cessna posted:Historical wargaming - tabletop hex-and-counter games - was at its height in the 70s and 80s. Since then they've been in steady decline as most gamers who want to play a strategy game or simulation don't always enjoy reading dense rulebooks and cross referencing dice rolls on dozens of charts to see if their tank's gun hit and knocked out the other tank: To be fair to Flames of War, they're really trying to get at big time national differences in a scale where they wouldn't always come out so easily, and in a way that 'pops' rules-wise. And generally, their response to the limits of archetype in the nations is to try to offer different options- there are odd duck German companies that are mostly Reluctant Trained fortress troops or captured French tanks in the late war, as well as Soviet hero companies which have fewer models and work closer to what one might expect. They have a similar comic book mentality toward other nations, though I do think the solution in some forces being to have a battalion(this is how Italian regulars, Romanians, and most Soviet infantry lists work) is not ideal. The Italians actually roll for their training and morale and pay a lot for the potential to be above average. I'm not sure portraying Nazi inefficiency in additional surcharges in points 'just to make a point' would do much to improve anything- in games like FoW, especially in the late war, playing a panzer company is going to be more interesting than playing a volksgrenadier company consisting of Polish conscripts, just from a strict Xs and Os, player agency approach. In the cardboard world, I don't really see all that much that i'd chalk up to bad historiography in modern designs. OCS The Third Winter is based on a modern understanding of the Soviet forces in Ukraine in 1943-44, for example, and does a pretty good job of capturing their strengths and weaknesses, same for the Axis forces.
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Nov 19, 2021 20:31
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Mors Rattus posted:https://spikeybits.com/2021/11/warhammer-isnt-for-everyone-especially-these-nazis.html Could have just refunded the ticket price to the Nazi and told him to piss off. They chose not to, and to give him ITC points by marking people refusing to play him as them conceding.
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Nov 19, 2021 21:59
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Mors Rattus posted:https://spikeybits.com/2021/11/warhammer-isnt-for-everyone-especially-these-nazis.html If they're revising the rules, (and assuming they aren't just lying to save face) then it might be something to do with him paying a ticket price then being kicked out, or some kind of general non-discrimination law. I don't think that "Being a Nazi" would be protected under something like that, but you never know in other parts of the world. If that's the case, I don't really know what "rules" you'd change to avoid this issue in the future. Maybe just a blanket ban on any sort of politically affiliated apparel? Desfore fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 22:20
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Yeah that sounds like a complete cop out by the TOs. They could have come up with a million justifications for DQ'ing him based on any basic tournament rules and not have been worried about the supposed free speech threats.
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Nov 19, 2021 22:32
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Bottom Liner posted:Yeah that sounds like a complete cop out by the TOs. They could have come up with a million justifications for DQ'ing him based on any basic tournament rules and not have been worried about the supposed free speech threats. Worst comes to worst, if Spanish law is so poo poo that you can't kick out a nazi, then you cancel the entire tournament and make it clear that this is why you can't have nice things.
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Nov 19, 2021 22:42
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Panzeh posted:To be fair to Flames of War, they're really trying to get at big time national differences in a scale where they wouldn't always come out so easily, and in a way that 'pops' rules-wise. I understand that the game is a caricature, not a simulation, but it's so absurdly lopsided in what it chooses to show that it comes across as chud fantasy. This is, after all, the game that had the "hen and chicks" rule under which Soviet tanks blundered around in unmaneuverable blobs while German tanks used the special German-only "Stormtrooper move" rule to run around them and shoot them with impunity. The game also gave (gives) Soviet tanks half the rate of fire of their German counterparts, even when comparing a T-34/76 to a Jagdtiger with heavy shells. FoW also made it impossible to play "Veteran" Soviet troops even in late 1944, but somehow made SS troops "Fearless Veterans" at that time despite their real-world crippling manpower shortages. (Yeah, the Frontovik that fought from Stalingrad to Kursk to Berlin just isn't as good of a soldier as a 16 year old Hitler Youth conscript in an ill-fitting SS uniform...) And, for that matter, the had special rules for seemingly every SS Division to make them even more elite, while not a single Soviet Division got special rules of any kind. But in return the Soviets DID get the stereotypical "Commissars shoot their own troops" rules despite the fact that Commissars weren't in the front lines post-Stalingrad. And the Soviets got the infamous "Blocking Detachments" to shoot their own troops again, while somehow the drum-head summary executions of Nazi Feldjagers never made it into the game. And on and on, and this sort of thing lasted for three editions. Again, I understand that this is a "Hollywood stereotype" wargame, not a War College simulation. But the problem is that the caricature they've chosen to replicate is a Fascist wet dream. You could easily counter any of the examples I mentioned above with rules that were just as interesting but less representative of the pro-Nazi views of WW2 instead. Even simple tweaks like "you can't use 'Veteran' SS troops after 1944" or "yes, the Soviets can field good troops" or "no, the Nazis don't get Me-262s for air-to-ground support" would help. Now, that said, I have to give credit for the fact that they ARE getting better. The new edition dropped "hen and chicks" and made it possible to use "Hero" Soviet units with better stats than regular Soviet formations, and Soviet Commissars also were changed to only provide a morale bonus, etc. But this old Soviet player has played enough games to have some bad memories nonetheless. Panzeh posted:I'm not sure portraying Nazi inefficiency in additional surcharges in points 'just to make a point' would do much to improve anything- in games like FoW, especially in the late war, playing a panzer company is going to be more interesting than playing a volksgrenadier company consisting of Polish conscripts, just from a strict Xs and Os, player agency approach. I disagree. There are all sorts of things that you can do to make an in-game army more interesting but still counter the "uber-German" mythology. Bolt Action, for example, does this with their late-war German lists. If you're playing in Berlin in 1945 you're stuck making selections that may be a detriment to your army. Want fanatic SS troops? Sure, you can get them, but you also have to take less than motivated Volkssturm first. Want an uber-Panther tank? Sure, and every time you give it a "move" order it may run out of fuel. Players aren't losing agency; rather, they can get "good" stuff, but they get it with drawbacks. You could also handle it through forced army selection choices as I mentioned above; "no 'Veteran' SS after 1944" and the like. (And as a matter of personal preference, I prefer odd, less "elite" armies over uber-Panzers, but will admit up front that this is entirely a personal preference. ) Panzeh posted:In the cardboard world, I don't really see all that much that i'd chalk up to bad historiography in modern designs. OCS The Third Winter is based on a modern understanding of the Soviet forces in Ukraine in 1943-44, for example, and does a pretty good job of capturing their strengths and weaknesses, same for the Axis forces. Like I said about FoW, things ARE getting better, and I am glad to see the changes, but there's a LOT of inerta and largely unexamined bias to overcome.
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Nov 19, 2021 23:05
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Showing up to a tournament wearing fascist iconography and calling yourself a wink-wink Hitler reference isn't just a way of showing solidarity for other fascists or expressing political beliefs. It's an acive attempt to intimidate the people around you that you really and honestly think aren't people. You call yourself Austrian Painter and wear an iron cross because you want anyone Jewish that you're interacting with to know that you think they're scum. This dude absolutely knew what he was doing. Good on GW for attempting to make people that do this feel unwelcome.
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Nov 20, 2021 00:25
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Cessna posted:I disagree. There are all sorts of things that you can do to make an in-game army more interesting but still counter the "uber-German" mythology. This is definitely in line with how I think something like late WW2 Nazis can be handled in a game that actually adds, as said earlier, context to the course of the war and the changes it brings. It doesn't have to boil down to "all your units suck" so much as having contextually interesting tradeoffs like these. I agree there's a balance to walk in adding that sort of mechanically integrated context and also making it a game that's enjoyable to play for all parties, but there are a lot of ways to do this that aren't just making things flat worse or flat better.
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Nov 20, 2021 01:41
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Cessna posted:Bolt Action, for example, does this with their late-war German lists. If you're playing in Berlin in 1945 you're stuck making selections that may be a detriment to your army. Want fanatic SS troops? Sure, you can get them, but you also have to take less than motivated Volkssturm first. Want an uber-Panther tank? Sure, and every time you give it a "move" order it may run out of fuel. Players aren't losing agency; rather, they can get "good" stuff, but they get it with drawbacks. You could also handle it through forced army selection choices as I mentioned above; "no 'Veteran' SS after 1944" and the like. Which WW2 rules are good about this and which ones to avoid? (I feel like that Panther rule needs a D66 table that goes along with it to tell you WHY you Panther tank just broke down at that point for extra hilarity. There must be that many reasons for it to happen). EDIT- Found a blog covering it: quote:The report (I./Pz.Rgt. 26 “Zusammengefasster Bericht über Panzerlage”) gives causes for each Panther being put out of action these days. It is clear that of 15 Panthers put out of action 5-7 March, only three had been hit by enemy fire and it seems that none received irreparable damage. Though I presume early war T34's were even worse. The rules should probably reflect that the Panther has a 50% change of blowing itself up before any enemy units are involved and the vast majority break down and are blown up by their crews. Not much fun to play with, but going to be hilarious for their opponent to watch it happen. Comstar fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 04:13
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Last chance to sign up for TG Secret Santa. Please don't shame the forum by letting the number of Santas in the world dwindle even further!
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Nov 22, 2021 16:37
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Kai Tave posted:How extensive are the differences? Is it largely just points/availability or do the actual capabilities of units change any to reflect the state of things within the various armies? You get some capability changes, yeah. T-34s having Unreliable or Overworked in early/mid war, for instance.
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Nov 22, 2021 23:11
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I actually really like Bolt Action and Warlord's other games. The rulesets are like WFB/40k from some alternate timeline where the original GW crew never left but kept revising those games. The local historical players here loving HATE their poo poo to the point that one guy described them as "watching a child play with Duplo" so that really sold me on them.
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Nov 25, 2021 00:02
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As an alternative from the board game world, there's how Quartermaster General differentiates everyone in WW2. The game is more abstract and played on the global scale with emphasis on keeping contiguous lines of control for supply. The Soviets are still their version of human wave tactics with a special card that lets them operate without needing supply. Germany is basically a rush player that can invade early and quickly. The US is the opposite and is slow to build up but can get ridiculous momentum. Italy just sorta exists to support Germany. Japan has trap cards to depict sneak attacks and such i guess.
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Nov 25, 2021 06:58
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Panzeh posted:In the cardboard world, I don't really see all that much that i'd chalk up to bad historiography in modern designs. OCS The Third Winter is based on a modern understanding of the Soviet forces in Ukraine in 1943-44, for example, and does a pretty good job of capturing their strengths and weaknesses, same for the Axis forces. A good book (although I think in some respects a bit out of touch in terms of the modern board wargaming sphere), is the The Myth Of The Eastern Front, which isn't so much about the Eastern Front itself, but how the Myth of it affected media in the US and how it came about that small time US printers created books mythologising the deeds of the SS/Wehrmacht. It has a chapter on wargaming that is interesting but not entirely accurate to the modern landscape. Classic hex and counter designs have declined in terms of sales, but in general the modern wargaming sphere has expanded partially thanks to the boardgaming renaissance/golden age. The crucial factor is that only the most resiliant rulesets really survived, so in terms of what becomes available, ASL is the only real tactical hex and counter system that has any success nowadays, OCS is the same but for Operational-level, etc etc. The real boom in wargaming has been with simpler system like CDGs (although they boomed and busted that bubble long ago) and semi-euros like the COIN games.
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Nov 25, 2021 13:39
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Tekopo posted:Yeah, modern hex and counters games are pretty good about how they handle historiography in relation to the Eastern Front nowadays. In some ways, it was kind of unavoidable that there would be bad historiography in terms of games developed within the 70s and 80s, because the Soviet archives hadn't been opened yet and all anyone had to rely on was just acocunts by incredibly biased sources. If you're big on the exploring-history-through-simulation aspect of wargames there's zero excuse not to take in better historiography because if you don't then you end up with not just a politically dodgy/outright toxic game, but you also end up with a game which is bad at doing the thing it is trying to do.
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Nov 25, 2021 13:52
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Warthur posted:My personal theory on this is that hex and counter wargames are fairly amenable to this because a lot of them seem to be very big on being true to history and so aren't so invested in presenting a scenario of two evenly opposed sides. I've seen hex and counter scenarios, for instance, where one side is considered to have "won" if they avoid being curbstomped to the same absolutely humiliating extent that they were in the historical situation being simulated, but there's no real prospect of them actually getting a "win" in the sense of convincingly defeating the opposing side. EDIT: I guess you made that point though, still, an interesting topic. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 14:03
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Tekopo posted:I'm not an expert on ASL, but as far as I'm aware, there is both the ability to play historical scenarios (I think they term it HASL, but I could be wrong), along with random scenario with relative force-parity (the latter also being a capability of other tactical-level games like Combat Commander et al) HASL (Historical ALS) refers to larger, longer campaign-level games based on a specific historical campaign, like Arnhem or a specific corner of Stalingrad, that have their own custom map sheets and sometimes rules. The standard ASL scenarios are still based on historical events, but they're smaller and use the standard, generic geomorph maps. Nonetheless, they're still games that are designed such that, between objectives and force composition, each side is supposed to have a 50% chance of winning. There are also rules for making DIY scenarios, which is a form of game that gives both sides a point budget to buy armies and advantages with.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:23
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https://twitter.com/SandyPugGames/status/1464013109916545034
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Nov 26, 2021 00:55
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To elaborate on this, because the tweet doesn't quite explain things, Mandy Morbid is now counter-suing Zak and accepting donations for legal fees etc.
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Nov 26, 2021 02:57
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Good. Hope she sucker punches him straight in the loving wallet.
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Nov 26, 2021 03:08
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i have a hard time believing thats the same person, considering how sickly/miserable Mandy looks in basically every single other photo I've seen of her.
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Nov 26, 2021 08:40
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:i have a hard time believing thats the same person, considering how sickly/miserable Mandy looks in basically every single other photo I've seen of her. What the hell is wrong with you?
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Nov 26, 2021 08:50
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Warden posted:What the hell is wrong with you? I was mostly commenting on happy she looks after getting out of the relationship. What the hell is wrong with you? I was somewhat worried about her, since her condition is aggressively exacerbated by stress, you know, like a lawsuit, but she seems to be doing pretty well. Do a comparison: This is her two years ago: https://www.gofundme.com/f/wd76ub-help-with-legal-fees?utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter This is her now: https://www.gofundme.com/f/wd76ub-help-with-legal-fees?utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter I'm saying it's a good thing. TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 08:54
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It's extremely good that she looks like she's doing a lot better but there are some really bad ways to phrase that reaction.
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Nov 26, 2021 08:55
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You know, I'm already looking at more reports than I'd like to be*, so can we please leave off commenting on Mandy's appearance? It's good that she's doing better now she's out from under his thumb, and I hope she sues him for a sizable chunk of his bottomless well of cash. *One report. It's still more than I want to be looking at.
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Nov 26, 2021 09:04
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I was mostly commenting on happy she looks after getting out of the relationship. What the hell is wrong with you? You phrased it really, really badly initially. You came across as doubting it was Mandy at all, like this was some sort of scam. Edit. Crossposted with mod guidance, will drop the subject. Sorry.
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Nov 26, 2021 09:04
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Has the lawsuit against her been resolved? Or is it still in some seemingly unending state?
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Nov 26, 2021 17:55
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Nuns with Guns posted:Has the lawsuit against her been resolved? Or is it still in some seemingly unending state?
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Nov 26, 2021 18:06
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If the divorce isn't finalized how does suing him work exactly? I was under the impression assets are joint, but I understand separation works differently in different states.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:26
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Froghammer posted:She's countersuing, which is either an Extremely Good Sign or an Extremely Bad Sign and either way requires more money. I read the gofundme, so I can see she is counter suing and I can see she was asking for financial support in that. Am I supposed to infer that means the other lawsuit is ongoing then? I don't know enough about American or Canadian civil laws to know if you can only counter sue while the first lawsuit is still open or not.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:31
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Nuns with Guns posted:I read the gofundme, so I can see she is counter suing and I can see she was asking for financial support in that. Am I supposed to infer that means the other lawsuit is ongoing then? I don't know enough about American or Canadian civil laws to know if you can only counter sue while the first lawsuit is still open or not. Not A Lawyer, but as I understand it a Countersuit is part of an ongoing case, if she were following up an existing case with a new one it would just be suing him.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:44
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