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The Sarduakar are intentionally a direct analogue of the real life Jannisaries. Both being an Emperors personal slave soldiers he uses to intimidate his empires great houses. Where both of them started out as the world/universes most elite fighting force, then spent centuries sitting on their asses coasting on reputation before getting humiliated.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:20
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galagazombie posted:The Sarduakar are intentionally a direct analogue of the real life Jannisaries. Both being an Emperors personal slave soldiers he uses to intimidate his empires great houses. Where both of them started out as the world/universes most elite fighting force, then spent centuries sitting on their asses coasting on reputation before getting humiliated. huh, never thought about that before
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Nov 26, 2021 00:20
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History of the world, Part I came out in 1981. Heretics of Dune was published in 1984. Horny Ol' Frank ripped off the entire jews in space story arc from a Mel Brooks bit and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.
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Nov 26, 2021 00:35
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Where are you sourcing this number from? Thats a fantastic question... I don't actually know. I've only read the first book, but I've spent a ton of time googling stuff to try and keep up itt, and it seems like everywhere the '1 in 10' number is thrown out. I don't actually know where that number came about - it feels like something from the failson books; IMO papa herbert was pretty clear that you needed spice to make the spaceship work. 1 in 10 is pretty brutal, but also not insurmountable
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Nov 26, 2021 00:41
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Vampire Panties posted:Thats a fantastic question... I don't actually know. Logic dictates that they had to have had a way to navigate space with FTL travel between leaving Earth and finding Arrakis - but what the odds are, how it was done, and basically anything else about it isn't really known in the original books, and the encyclopedia only really covers it implicitly in the timeline.
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Nov 26, 2021 00:49
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Kinda surprised the emperor and Guild didn't just...send an otherwise empty heighliner and have it crash into a star. "Oops", the emperor said, as the Harkonnens returned to their previous stations.
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Nov 26, 2021 02:01
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ChubbyChecker posted:huh, never thought about that before The setting of the first book is extremely tied to the “Muslims in Space” theme. Besides the aforementioned Sarduakar/Jannisaries connection there are several other examples such as: Padishah is a Persian word for emperor used by many Islamic rulers, which makes “Padishah Emperor” a redundancy. The Fremen/Bedouin Arab connection, which connects both to the Muslim conquests of the 600’s over a Padishah that installed a new theocratic state in a jihad, but also to something that would have been current events to Herbert, the Arab revolt of WW1 where Bedouin Arabs helped destroy the Ottoman Empire of Jannisary/Sarduakar fame (though the Jannisaries had long been disbanded after a previous Dune esc defeat). Nobility/Great Houses being moved around and reassigned fiefs instead of being tied to them like in European feudalism. Which was a common trait of the Middle East from the Ottomans all the way back to the Achaemenid’s. Just the general use of Islamic terminology in general, People like to joke about the series various Jihad’s, but you’ve also got Mahdi being a huge part of Muslim end-times theology.
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Nov 26, 2021 03:08
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I think I've mentioned this before, it's not just Muslims - it's a mix of many religions. Frank Herbert was a practicing Zen Buddhist, and was always fascinated with religion in general (it stands out in some of his other books, too).
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Nov 26, 2021 04:28
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I think I've mentioned this before, it's not just Muslims - it's a mix of many religions. Frank Herbert was a practicing Zen Buddhist, and was always fascinated with religion in general (it stands out in some of his other books, too). Besides the word ZenSunni getting thrown around a few times that stuff mostly comes from the philosophical monologues or the sequels though. The first books actual physical setting is full on Space Muslim.
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Nov 26, 2021 04:41
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kiimo posted:It sounds like some of you read the lore in video games Oh you snippy bitch
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Nov 26, 2021 04:45
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YoursTruly posted:Kinda surprised the emperor and Guild didn't just...send an otherwise empty heighliner and have it crash into a star. The point of the plot was plausible deniability. If the Guild's 100% accurate perfect prescient navigators just happened to crash for the first time in millennia, with a whole house on board and nobody else, that's an obvious hit and the entire nobility turns on the emperor.
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Nov 26, 2021 11:01
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Fuschia tude posted:The point of the plot was plausible deniability. If the Guild's 100% accurate perfect prescient navigators just happened to crash for the first time in millennia, with a whole house on board and nobody else, that's an obvious hit and the entire nobility turns on the emperor. I always thought there's a kind of wheel within a wheel thing going on there, too. I always read it as, like, the Harkonnen want to SUPER involve the Emperor in their evil scheme, so that his hands are dirty and they have something over him, hence them hiring waaaay too many battalions. But then from the Emperor's perspective, there's an element of like, "No one will know it was me, but they'll all believe it was me", which lets him continue to rule with fear, but as you say, plausible deniability. (Rather than total innocence).
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Nov 26, 2021 11:41
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Mind you, this is the same setting with magic people who can accurately detect any lies you tell just from hearing your answer, but also where "Well, I never said they were to be killed!" is an a-OK mastermind defense strategy.
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Nov 26, 2021 12:24
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galagazombie posted:The setting of the first book is extremely tied to the “Muslims in Space” theme. -snip- I thought it was a disstillate of the "Orange Catholic Church" or at least, various sects thereof, not to mention the honored maitres being their own sect of, er whatever, the sardukkar being into a stripped down version of zensunni, with essentially a lot of placement of arabic themes overlaid, Jihad, for instance. I really need to read the books again. (Edit: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Religion ) oh yeah, and the fremen. drat, thats a whole list right there. Bubblyblubber posted:Mind you, this is the same setting with magic people who can accurately detect any lies you tell just from hearing your answer, but also where "Well, I never said they were to be killed!" is an a-OK mastermind defense strategy. well, two sects of very different "people" who can do that, both the Maitres and the Spacefaring Guild, who happen to dislike each other intensely. staberind fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 13:02
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I imagine the discouragement of technological advance along with the discovery of sources of no bullshit superpowers has probably given mysticism a new lease on life. Was there ever official merchandise of the Dune Tarot?
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Nov 26, 2021 13:10
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!Klams posted:Right? This has always been my read, the book 'says' they are this fuckin' awesome army, but the book 'shows' them to just be utter utter stooges. And my read was that, as you say, they're entirely reputation, but it's more than that. Selusa Secondus is a prison planet, and only the meanest of the mean get chosen to be murder-gently caress-death-machines at the Emperors every whim. It's explicit that the people that graduate to being Sardukar live lives of absolute luxury, aside from the fighting. It's the kind of in-group formation that happens all the time in reality.
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Nov 26, 2021 13:10
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They're Janissaries/Praetorian Guard etc at a point where they are getting a bit soft but haven't fallen into full decadence yet. After Leto's poison assassination attempt the Baron is unable to stop a Sardaukar captain from being able to inspect the room (and report back to the Emperor how the Baron hosed up). Junior officers of the Sardaukar can push past even major house heads if they are on the Emperor's business. It's a pretty privileged position to be in.
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Nov 26, 2021 13:17
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A big point is that they're raised in deliberately horrible conditions on a planet described as one big prison, and have the opportunity to be elevated to immense status and privilege. The standard imperial playbook.
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Nov 26, 2021 13:30
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!Klams posted:I always thought there's a kind of wheel within a wheel thing going on there, too. I always read it as, like, the Harkonnen want to SUPER involve the Emperor in their evil scheme, so that his hands are dirty and they have something over him, hence them hiring waaaay too many battalions. But then from the Emperor's perspective, there's an element of like, "No one will know it was me, but they'll all believe it was me", which lets him continue to rule with fear, but as you say, plausible deniability. (Rather than total innocence). I forget where this is implied too but also I think the Emperor wants the Harkonnens to blow all their cash on doing his dirty work
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Nov 26, 2021 14:06
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I cannot think or comprehend of anything more cucked than having a jihad. Honestly, think about it presciently. You are feeding, clothing, raising and rearing a gaggle of desert warriors for at least 18 years solely so they can go and ravage the universe in your father's name. All the hard work you put into your beautiful little sand people - telling them of the waters of your homeworld, making them go to weirding way practice, making sure they had a healthy fiber heavy diet, educating them, raiding Harkonen operations with them. All of it has one simple result: their bodies are fodder for the typhoon struggle. Raised the perfect fremen warrior? Great. Who benefits? If you're lucky, a dickless worm 4000 years in the future who had nothing to do with the way they grew up, who inherits the empire. He gets the second skin you were too scared to accept. He gets the benefits of a unified and ever-stagnating universe that came from the way you raised hell. As a man who has a fremen horde, you are LITERALLY dedicating at least 20 years of your life simply to raise a desert people abstract archetype for a Worm-human hybrid to enjoy. It is the ULTIMATE AND FINAL cuck. Think about it presciently. Bubblyblubber fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 14:10
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Fuschia tude posted:The point of the plot was plausible deniability. If the Guild's 100% accurate perfect prescient navigators just happened to crash for the first time in millennia, with a whole house on board and nobody else, that's an obvious hit and the entire nobility turns on the emperor. Perhaps a bit arrogant of the Duke?
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Nov 26, 2021 14:23
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:It's not just plausible deniability; Leto straight up mentions Kanly to Vladimir Harkonnen in, presumably, a signet-signed letter. Plausible deniability of the emperor’s involvement, not the Harkonnen. Vlad wants everyone to know he did it so he can swing dick
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Nov 26, 2021 14:24
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skasion posted:Plausible deniability of the emperor’s involvement, not the Harkonnen. Vlad wants everyone to know he did it so he can swing dick
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Nov 26, 2021 14:28
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A big point is that they're raised in deliberately horrible conditions on a planet described as one big prison, and have the opportunity to be elevated to immense status and privilege. The standard imperial playbook. Secretly, because nobody knows where the Sardaukar come from. Hawat has worked it out, which is one of the reasons the Atreides agree to go to Arrakis - they suspect the Fremen could be as tough as the Sardaukar.
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Nov 26, 2021 14:36
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MrL_JaKiri posted:It's explicit that the people that graduate to being Sardukar live lives of absolute luxury, aside from the fighting. It's the kind of in-group formation that happens all the time in reality. Right, that's why you'd join him. But then when you had that lifestyle, why would you fight to the death? Also: New Bad Lip Reading is out of Dune and its gooood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYMq27uygsY
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Nov 26, 2021 15:14
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Bubblyblubber posted:I cannot think or comprehend of anything more cucked than having a jihad. Honestly, think about it presciently. You are feeding, clothing, raising and rearing a gaggle of desert warriors for at least 18 years solely so they can go and ravage the universe in your father's name. All the hard work you put into your beautiful little sand people - telling them of the waters of your homeworld, making them go to weirding way practice, making sure they had a healthy fiber heavy diet, educating them, raiding Harkonen operations with them. All of it has one simple result: their bodies are fodder for the typhoon struggle. Odds are that this was written one handed
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Nov 26, 2021 15:25
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Shageletic posted:Odds are that this was written one handed Otheym did lose an arm to the spitting disease in Tarahell, but I don't see why you have to be a dick about it.
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Nov 26, 2021 15:41
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galagazombie posted:Besides the word ZenSunni getting thrown around a few times that stuff mostly comes from the philosophical monologues or the sequels though. The first books actual physical setting is full on Space Muslim. Herbert had a really deep personal connection with a Hoh Indian man. The logging of the PNW and his infamous sand dune reporting were the first major inspirations for Dune. It’s not just Muslims in space.
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Nov 26, 2021 16:42
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It's not detailed much, but the Sardaukar had some sort of (IIRC mystery cult-ish) internal religion, which helped keep them motivated. One of the factors that had weakened the Sardaukar by Paul's time was that they'd become increasingly cynical, and their faith had become a series of empty rituals. Thufir and the Baron have a conversation about how soldiers like the Sardaukar could be kept loyal and motivated at some point, and a private religion came up as one of the ways.
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Nov 26, 2021 16:54
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It's been nearly two decades since I've read Dunc. Are the Sardaukar the only troops under the direct command of the Emperor? Did He have other troops? Did He command the Harkonnen to attack (even if they paid for it), or did He have to ask, or did they (I assume) have to ask Him? Would any other of the houses have wanted to get in on the action (Great Houses or not), be it holding Arrakis, or wanting to attack Arrakis?(with the reinforcements ofc) Besides the encyclopedia, are any other houses even named? With the Jews In Space thing, I assume people live somewhere, whether they belong to a house or not. There's all sorts of other houses in the Landsraad (presumably). What presence do they actually have in the books? Obviously House Ordos is a major player. (  ) Did Salusa Secundus have a house in charge of it to hide the soldiers' belonging to the Emperor, or was that his actual fief?What crimes let you end up on that planet? Who were the blood-letting prisoners in the movie? How do you audition to be a throat singer??? If Leto 2 had a dick, would He make it look like a worm???????
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Nov 26, 2021 18:46
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Theoretically the emperor was also the leader of his own house which would have troops too, but nothing like the imperial troops
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Nov 26, 2021 18:53
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YoursTruly posted:It's been nearly two decades since I've read Dunc. no, it would look like a man
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Nov 26, 2021 18:57
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!Klams posted:... I lost it at the spitting, that was fantastic
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Nov 26, 2021 18:59
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YoursTruly posted:Are the Sardaukar the only troops under the direct command of the Emperor? Did He have other troops? Did He command the Harkonnen to attack (even if they paid for it), or did He have to ask, or did they (I assume) have to ask Him? Would any other of the houses have wanted to get in on the action (Great Houses or not), be it holding Arrakis, or wanting to attack Arrakis?(with the reinforcements ofc) The emperor levies troops from the houses as a feudal duty, which is the ostensible source of the Sardaukar. I don’t know what actually happens to these guys. I don’t think we ever learn how the conspiracy was initially set up. Seems like it would have been a tricky negotiation. Probably done through Fenring since he’s the emperor’s get-poo poo-done guy. The Harks were already fighting with the Atreides on a small scale before the plot was set up, when the Harks were still on Dune. YoursTruly posted:Besides the encyclopedia, are any other houses even named? With the Jews In Space thing, I assume people live somewhere, whether they belong to a house or not. There are loads of other houses but we hardly learn anything about them. The only others that are named in the first book besides Atreides, Hark, and Corrino (the imperial house) are Moritani and Ginaz. Also there are weirder, less feudal societies on the fringes like Ix and Tleilax. The jews are secret YoursTruly posted:If Leto 2 had a dick, would He make it look like a worm??????? The answer is within you
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Nov 26, 2021 19:00
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was it ever said how the Harks got Dune in the first place? i can't remember. anyway, re: the conspiracy this is what it seems like to me. fait accompli type situation. Emperor calls up House Harkonenn and says "shame about what happened to your Dune. If you were to uh, attack and kill all the Atreides, your hated enemy, you could take it back and we'd look the other way. We'd even help out a little. You have to pay for the whole thing though." Both threats neutralized. Atreides is all dead or scattered. Harkonnen is bankrupt. You just kicked the can down the road for another century or so.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:06
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As someone who only knows about Dune through cultural osmosis, the Sardukar's intro with the guy throat-singing while they had the blood of sacrifices painted on their foreheads immediately established them as super bad news. Man that scene was rad as hell. Now I wanna watch the movie again.
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Nov 26, 2021 20:45
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joneswt posted:As someone who only knows about Dune through cultural osmosis, the Sardukar's intro with the guy throat-singing while they had the blood of sacrifices painted on their foreheads immediately established them as super bad news. that one scene tells you more about them than all the exposition in the book. and it took like 2 minutes.
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Nov 26, 2021 20:56
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To what does "orange" in "orange catholic bible" refer?
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Nov 26, 2021 22:26
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Tree Bucket posted:To what does "orange" in "orange catholic bible" refer? Orange is a holy color in the Hindu & Buddhist tradition. Bhikkus wear orange Also traditionally associated with the Protestants. So “orange Catholic” is I think intended to feel like an ecumenical, all-embracing thing.
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Nov 26, 2021 22:31
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Bubblyblubber posted:I cannot think or comprehend of anything more cucked than having a jihad. Honestly, think about it presciently. You are feeding, clothing, raising and rearing a gaggle of desert warriors for at least 18 years solely so they can go and ravage the universe in your father's name. All the hard work you put into your beautiful little sand people - telling them of the waters of your homeworld, making them go to weirding way practice, making sure they had a healthy fiber heavy diet, educating them, raiding Harkonen operations with them. All of it has one simple result: their bodies are fodder for the typhoon struggle. lol
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Nov 26, 2021 22:33
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