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Majorian posted:That's simply not true, and even the chart you cite says so. Turnout was higher in '40, which was higher than '36, which was higher than '32. True, turnout in '32 was lower than in '28, but that can be seen as a function of the Great Depression. When the economy's in the worst shape it's historically been and people don't see how things are going to get any better, turnout's going to suffer. How is it not true? 1928 was as high or higher than 1932, 1936, 1940, or 1944. 1940 was in no way out of the ordinary historically--as I pointed out, every election 1908-1916 and 1952-1968 matched or beat 1940 for turnout. And turnout declined in 1944 and 1948. You've picked out one or two data points and tried to turn it into a "trend" that doesn't exist. And if we look at the Great Society programs, well, turnout declined in 1968 and 1972. Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 23:55
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CommieGIR posted:Name some things that cannot be recycled.
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Nov 26, 2021 23:56
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Capitalism can never fight climate change because it's beneficial for them not to fight it and they get to make the rules. We were all born into a world where the options are to end capitalism or suffer climate catastrophe. You can say that ending capitalism is unrealistic or impossible or too dangerous. That's fine but none of that matters because the choice is still the same.
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Nov 26, 2021 23:59
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World Famous W posted:Unless I'm wrong, which I'm not smart in this area so likely, helium That is one thing, true. And I know that there's a lot of concerns around the helium reserves, but we also lose a lot of it because of natural gas drilling prioritizing fossil fuels over helium capture.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:00
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CommieGIR posted:Name some things that cannot be recycled. Is this some kind of weird challenge? I recently read about electronics recycling, there absolutely are just a few elements we can meaningfully recycle. The idea that future technology will make all our current e-waste some kind of magic resource heap solving all of our problems is wishful thinking where people make themselves feel better about resources not being endless. Thinking we'll be able to extract everything from some molten slag is absurd. Kraftwerk posted:You can solve climate change with enough political will. The mass mobilization required hasn’t happened yet. Ignoring whether we can actually solve climate change at this point: No, we don't have the ability to mine asteroids at all. That's pure sci-fi. We also can't build infrastructure in space. That's sci-fi as well. Maybe people should remain in reality when discussing the future and not pine for Starfleet/Elon Musk to solve all of our issues.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You can argue it is a worse outcome, but the idea that voting is as much of a threat to "the idea of democracy" as trying to overturn a democratic election by force is a pretty hard case to make. No, it isn't; being told to vote for a senile, racist rapist or protesting bc your own senile, racist rapist didn't win are both injurious to democracy, and a case could be made that the former is more injurious bc it's been internalized as an excuse to browbeat people into voting for lovely dems while 1/6 was a one-off event.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:02
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We arent even permitted to be allowed to vote for POTUS and that position is subject to the whims of 3 different house of lords lmao
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Nov 27, 2021 00:02
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Majorian posted:A well-planned, well-organized general strike would be a big step in that direction. Of course, that's going to take years of planning and organizing, but I think it's a good thing to aim for in the medium term. One doesn't need a majority of the people to grind the international economy to a halt. COVID is about as close to a dry run for that as we're going to get. A big portion of the service and logistics workforce still hasn't returned and those that have mostly did so for a lot more money than when they left. It didn't come anywhere near killing capitalism, although it did a lot to reform it, both good and bad. Given the amount of pressure it placed on JIT logistics, there will probably be some regulations that show up over the next decade to mandate some level of availability and disaster recovery in supply chains. Assuming that happens, a general strike probably wouldn't be nearly as damaging, and even if it was, people would just say "COVID was worse." Also, it's basically impossible to plan an organized global strike without giving businesses time to react and, you know, prepare for it. Furthermore, strikes are very useful tools for getting concessions out of capital, but they work by basically saying "give us what we want or you will go out of business." That has the implicit requirement that what you want doesn't involve the company you're striking against to go out of business. Nobody is going to go on a "Let's all get fired for nothing" strike and companies aren't going to negotiate with a bunch of revolutionaries trying to burn down the system in which they exist.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:02
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Harold Fjord posted:Manifest Destiny, would you say? Yes. Unironically yes. There are no native peoples waiting out there in our solar system to be conquered. It's open space, it's our space. We have the right to it, as the only sentient life form with the will and the ability to go and take it. Fame Douglas posted:It is bad, traveling to Mars for 9 months is a huge challenge. And then you're on Mars, where we can't survive, either. We won't "go out and claim" even our solar system, which is the most tiny and irrelevant part of the universe (or even just our galaxy) because physics simply don't allow us to exist outside of Earth meaningfully and we can't travel any reasonable distances either. Just because it's our "birthright" (what the hell does that mean) and sci-fi authors love to write about it doesn't mean we have any ability to colonize anything. You make the case that it's something very hard to do, which I don't disagree with at all. But human beings do hard things and go to hard places all the time. If the will is there then it will happen. Majorian posted:I don't think we're going to get our poo poo together with regard to climate change this century if we keep doing things your way and at your pace. "My way" is any way that makes progress, and "my pace" is as fast as humanly possible. I'm not the dictator of Earth who sets the timetables, I'm just a guy trying to help make progress happen as quickly as possible. Do you think that I, personally, am holding things up? I don't give myself that much credit tbh.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:02
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Fame Douglas posted:Is this some kind of weird challenge? I recently read about electronics recycling, there absolutely are just a few elements we can meaningfully recycle. The idea that future technology will make all our current e-waste some kind of magic resource heap solving all of our problems is wishful thinking where people make themselves feel better about resources not being endless. Thinking we'll be able to extract everything from some molten slag is absurd. Except we can largely recycle electronics. Take a guess why we don't. Nearly everything in electronics is components that can be reclaimed. And no, its not a challenge, I'm just asking what you feel like is unrecyclable. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 00:02
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Willa Rogers posted:No, it isn't; being told to vote for a senile, racist rapist or protesting bc your own senile, racist rapist didn't win are both injurious to democracy, and a case could be made that the former is more injurious bc it's been internalized as an excuse to browbeat people into voting for lovely dems while 1/6 was a one-off event. How many times were you forced to vote by someone on the internet telling you their voting philosophy? Someone voting a way you don't like is not subverting democracy worse than overthrowing an election. You've now hilariously doubled down that it is arguably worse for "the concept of democracy" for people on the internet to tell you how they think you should vote than for someone to forcibly overturn the results of a democratic election.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:05
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CommieGIR posted:Except we can largely recycle electronics. Take a guess why we don't. Nearly everything in electronics is components that can be reclaimed. If we recycled the stuff we built right before shipping it directly to the landfill to keep prices up, there would be no hope for whatever race comes after we destroy ourselves as there would be no landfills to become quarries for them to mine
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Nov 27, 2021 00:06
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Willa Rogers posted:No, it isn't; being told to vote for a senile, racist rapist or protesting bc your own senile, racist rapist didn't win are both injurious to democracy, and a case could be made that the former is more injurious bc it's been internalized as an excuse to browbeat people into voting for lovely dems while 1/6 was a one-off event. Thank you for your sacrifice
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Nov 27, 2021 00:07
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Just lost my post because of the dumb timeout. Lmao @ discussing anything on this garbage forum, why would you subject yourself to it. Especially with mods bringing brilliant counterarguments like "nu-uh" If you guys want to believe that technology conquers all issues, I don't care. Might as well start posting on Hacker News. Fame Douglas fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 00:11
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CommieGIR posted:Except we can largely recycle electronics. Take a guess why we don't. Nearly everything in electronics is components that can be reclaimed. Yea this mind boggling to me. And batteries. Many things with earth elements, alakli earth metals, transition metals, "basic" metals and even nonmetals- al lot of this stuff SHOULD be recycled. Sure, it can be expensive and complicated (which is why its not done) but it's so worthwhile
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Nov 27, 2021 00:11
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Fame Douglas posted:Just lost my post because of the dumb timeout. Lmao @ discussing anything on this garbage forum, why would you subject yourself to it. Especially with mods bringing brilliant counterarguments like "nu-uh" The problem is: Do you think NOT having technology is going to solve it better, and why would it be any other way? And all I asked what you though was not recyclable.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:13
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CommieGIR posted:Look, gonna be frank: Its okay to point out that the Dems are poo poo at what they are doing, I don't think its whataboutism. Willa Rogers posted:Just once I'd love to hear a liberal lament the 80,000 deaths our health "insurance" system causes each year as much as they are cry about the "end of democracy" on 1/6. There's pointing out the dems are poo poo, then there's posting like Willa every single time someone talks about like 1/6 or something Trump did, you can talk about how the Republicans do bad things and also think the Dems are poo poo and be able to talk about both. The dems being poo poo does not cancel out horrible poo poo done by Republicans so what sort of discussion is going "well the dems did a bad thing too" everytime supposed to facilitate? Like how are insurance deaths related to 1/6 in any way shape or form, it's not that's why its pure whataboutism because it's "instead of talking about this bad thing what about this other bad thing instead" Majorian posted:Where are you getting your info that it was "anti-New Deal Dems" who won the majority of seats afterward? If they were anti-New Deal and they aligned themselves with anti-New Deal Republicans, one would think they would have, I dunno, ended the New Deal programs. This was all shown to you with receipts last time I don't think the same evidence again will get anywhere different then last time.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:14
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KillHour posted:Take initiative how? What theoretical platform do you have to replace capitalism without the majority of the people and without existing political or financial power? You don’t need for a poll to reach 51% approval before decidinfo that there’s enough of a quorum to smash capitalism. You start with education and building power at the grassroots, through organizations - however flawed they might be - like the DSA. Keep striking and forcing the system to listen to your demands. Civil disobedience en masse. Some of these may be more practical than others but I’m completely fed up with twiddling my thumbs and waiting for the system to reform itself.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:15
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socialsecurity posted:There's pointing out the dems are poo poo, then there's posting like Willa every single time someone talks about like 1/6 or something Trump did, you can talk about how the Republicans do bad things and also think the Dems are poo poo and be able to talk about both. The dems being poo poo does not cancel out horrible poo poo done by Republicans so what sort of discussion is going "well the dems did a bad thing too" everytime supposed to facilitate? Like how are insurance deaths related to 1/6 in any way shape or form, it's not that's why its pure whataboutism because it's "instead of talking about this bad thing what about this other bad thing instead" Okay yeah that is a weird take and more like Whataboutism.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:16
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Sir John Falstaff posted:How is it not true? 1928 was as high or higher than 1932, 1936, 1940, or 1944. Right, but that's not what you said. You said, "it's the one election in that era with even marginally higher turnout." I don't think it makes sense to group a pre-Great Depression with all of the New Deal ones, do you? quote:And if we look at the Great Society programs, well, turnout declined in 1968. Having no incumbent running, a horribly mismanaged Democratic primary process that shoehorned in an uninspiring nominee, and an unpopular war that divided the Dems may have played a bit of a role in that. No one is saying that big social spending programs are an electoral panacea; of course they're not. But you suggested that if a third or more of the population has consistently declined to vote in elections for over a hundred years, then there's nothing that can be done to get them to vote. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption to make, especially when the group we're discussing are disproportionately working class and POC. socialsecurity posted:This was all shown to you with receipts last time I don't think the same evidence again will get anywhere different then last time. It absolutely was not shown to me last time.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:17
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Oil just collapsed down to pre-2018 prices. It started a few days ago, but exploded today due to new virus variant fears. https://twitter.com/markets/status/1464254362646159363 All stock indexes are down 2.2% to 3.6% today as well. The largest one day drop of the year.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:How many times were you forced to vote by someone on the internet telling you their voting philosophy? Which election was overthrown? A couple hundred jerks storming the capitol isn't the earth-shaking event that you & other Dems desperately want it to be, and I regret to inform you that the election was never in jeopardy of being overturned. And yes, it's worse for democracy when people are browbeaten into voting for senile, racist rapists than when they protest an election, and it also results in way more deaths & destruction.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:20
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Fame Douglas posted:We can't even solve climate change on earth, being able to provide a livable environment on Mars is laughable. This is absolutely not at all true. Citation needed.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:20
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:You don’t need for a poll to reach 51% approval before decidinfo that there’s enough of a quorum to smash capitalism. You start with education and building power at the grassroots, through organizations - however flawed they might be - like the DSA. Keep striking and forcing the system to listen to your demands. Civil disobedience en masse. Systems don't reform themselves. The things you said are how you reform the system. You're not "smashing capitalism" by donating time and money to the DSA, you're slowly and steadily reforming it and pushing for incremental change. In the same way that we're not all huddled around our guns waiting for the polls to strike 51% so we can march to the Whitehouse and depose Biden, we're not filling up some arbitrary "defeat capitalism" progress bar where the DSA getting enough funding causes Mecha-Marx to rise up out of the ocean and institute communism. Forcing the system to listen to your demands is reforming it. That's the definition of reform. You're just upset at the pace of progress and my sincere advice is to find some things that bring you peace outside of this thread to occupy your brain because you're not going to be helping anybody if you burn out in a few years. Do what you can, but don't let it drive you to the point of despair.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:22
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Oil just collapsed down to pre-2018 prices. It started a few days ago, but exploded today due to new virus variant fears. RIP taper, shame this still doesnt mean my gas prices go down probably
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Nov 27, 2021 00:22
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How are u posted:Yes. Unironically yes. There are no native peoples waiting out there in our solar system to be conquered. It's open space, it's our space. We have the right to it, as the only sentient life form with the will and the ability to go and take it. Big Imperium of Man energy over here
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Nov 27, 2021 00:22
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Oil just collapsed down to pre-2018 prices. It started a few days ago, but exploded today due to new virus variant fears. Lmao, wonder how this will affect OPEC's temper tantrum.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:23
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:This is absolutely not at all true. Citation needed. It's true, strictly speaking we can do this, we just arent going to Mars is 100x worse than the worst case climate change scenario lol, it's no safe haven, it's a gravestone
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Nov 27, 2021 00:24
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HonorableTB posted:Big Imperium of Man energy over here How's that? There are no people to subjugate out there in our little slice of space.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:27
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Willa Rogers posted:Which election was overthrown? And how many times were you forced to vote a certain way? I don't know if you are doubling down defensively or if you actually believe that, but voting in a way you personally don't like is not more contrary to "the idea of democracy" (which is an electoral system where individuals vote and the recipient of the largest number of votes is the winner) than attempting to overturn the results of a democratic election (which is literally an anti-democratic act). This is a dumb hill to die on.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:31
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Epic High Five posted:It's true, strictly speaking we can do this, we just arent going to That's odd, how do you explain the change in recent climate change projections from a decade ago? https://twitter.com/Peters_Glen/status/1455805193002573826?s=20
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Nov 27, 2021 00:33
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:And how many times were you forced to vote a certain way? No one's "forcing me to vote a certain way"; only preventing any option for president other than a senile, racist rapist. And yes, I do believe that the systemic rot that locks us into the perpetual "choice" of voting for a senile, racist rapist as president is worse than a one-day protest. I'm not dying on a hill, only pointing out how ludicrous it is to whinge about 1/6 as the end of the world--or as the end of democracy--given our current system.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:37
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KillHour posted:COVID is about as close to a dry run for that as we're going to get. A big portion of the service and logistics workforce still hasn't returned and those that have mostly did so for a lot more money than when they left. It didn't come anywhere near killing capitalism, although it did a lot to reform it, both good and bad. Given the amount of pressure it placed on JIT logistics, there will probably be some regulations that show up over the next decade to mandate some level of availability and disaster recovery in supply chains. Assuming that happens, a general strike probably wouldn't be nearly as damaging, and even if it was, people would just say "COVID was worse." Also, it's basically impossible to plan an organized global strike without giving businesses time to react and, you know, prepare for it. I think you're underestimating how brittle the global economic system is at some very key points. Right now there's no strike going on at the Port of Los Angeles/Long Beach. The truckers aren't actually on strike. There's just a labor shortage. Yet even that is wreaking havoc on supply chains. A well-organized general strike would absolutely have an effect. True, it probably wouldn't single-handedly end capitalism, but history shows that it's often an important step in that direction. The mobilized revolutionary segments of society demand reforms, and when the system can't accommodate those reforms any longer, it is forced to change.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:37
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's odd, how do you explain the change in recent climate change projections from a decade ago? Very good plausible paths forward based on pledged donations lol Meanwhile we reject the most productive zero carbon energy sources and completely ignore stuff like carbon emission implications of banning or endorsing crypto. The time to enact our current plan was the 1970s, doing it now would be a charade if it wasnt a "private public" setup which means it is actually just the normal kind of grift
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Nov 27, 2021 00:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Oil just collapsed down to pre-2018 prices. It started a few days ago, but exploded today due to new virus variant fears. They'll go back up in a week or two because the rich assholes who own the lions share of all stocks are still making money hand over fist and don't have anyplace better to put it. *wipes sweat from brow while nervously checking Robinhood account*
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Nov 27, 2021 00:40
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Epic High Five posted:Very good plausible paths forward based on pledged donations lol Who is the "we" you speak of exactly? Because, some Countries such as China have come down on bitcoin miners. What "plan" was supposed to have been enacted in 1970?
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Nov 27, 2021 00:43
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Majorian posted:I think you're underestimating how brittle the global economic system is at some very key points. Right now there's no strike going on at the Port of Los Angeles/Long Beach. The truckers aren't actually on strike. There's just a labor shortage. Yet even that is wreaking havoc on supply chains. A well-organized general strike would absolutely have an effect. True, it probably wouldn't single-handedly end capitalism, but history shows that it's often an important step in that direction. The mobilized revolutionary segments of society demand reforms, and when the system can't accommodate those reforms any longer, it is forced to change. I find it doubtful that a general strike would lead to a greater deficit in labor than the current labor shortage and that laws won't be put in place to ensure backup labor or logistic routes exist. I'm not claiming there's a strike, I'm claiming that this is roughly equivalent to a really bad general strike and all it's done is make electronics expensive and impossible to buy. What probably should happen is that the ports and at least some of the logistics lines into and out of them should be nationalized since they're obviously of extreme strategic importance. This would be good for workers, consumers and the economy but would also protect capitalism. It seems like a win-win but we're also really stupid so it probably won't happen. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The new Covid variant has an official name. This is such a dumb "Michael Bay thought of this in the shower" type name that I refuse to believe you. KillHour fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 00:44
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The new Covid variant has an official name. The virus strain formerly known as "B.1.1.529 Variant" is now the "Omicron variant." It appears to be up to 12x more transmissible than the Delta variant, but not clear if it is anymore deadly or vaccine resistant. Almost every known case is currently contained within Gauteng province in South Africa.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:44
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Who is the "we" you speak of exactly? Because, some Countries such as China have come down on bitcoin miners. What "plan" was supposed to have been enacted in 1970? The market driven kind we are going with now, and the "we" is basically every petrostate including ourselves All of Chinas crypto miners have found homes and gubernatorial endorsements in the US for their crimes against humanity
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Nov 27, 2021 00:46
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's odd, how do you explain the change in recent climate change projections from a decade ago? This is functionally identical to climate denialism
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Nov 27, 2021 00:46
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