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FuturePastNow posted:Are we going to find out Zodiark was just gaslighting the Convocation while Azem tracked down the Noise and stabbed it? Doubt it. It would undercut most of the story to have Zodiark be bad or evil tbh.
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Nov 26, 2021 20:39
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The moral is going to be that neither Zodiark of Hydaelin were evil but they were both blunt instruments created in panic by a society that didn't feel it had any other options, and for the good of the world now they've both got to be put in the dustbin of history
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Nov 26, 2021 20:43
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multijoe posted:The moral is going to be that neither Zodiark of Hydaelin were evil but they were both blunt instruments created in panic by a society that didn't feel it had any other options, and for the good of the world now they've both got to be put in the dustbin of history This, to be honest, is probably the best take. We have no way of knowing whether or not any Creation magics used by the Amurot were not tainted by whatever The Sound was. The entire system is, quite likely, the fruit of a poisoned tree. I feel like The Sound would be a good arc to build towards going forward, but it will largely depend on if the devs want to make it something separate from the ZvsH story or not. I could see them creating whole new arcs built on hunting down emanations of The Sound throughout the land and trying to figure out what it really is.
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Nov 26, 2021 21:05
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FuturePastNow posted:Venat will call you Azem and then Alisaie will yell at her and deliver a profanity-laced lecture on the nature of being Really want a timeskip after which Alisaie develops Barret-esque speech patterns. Also the twins really need to stop copying Dad's hairstyle, especially now
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Nov 26, 2021 21:17
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Gearhead posted:This, to be honest, is probably the best take. We have no way of knowing whether or not any Creation magics used by the Amurot were not tainted by whatever The Sound was. The entire system is, quite likely, the fruit of a poisoned tree. That could be an interesting take with different setup, but for something being framed as "the end of the arc" has a bit too much of a tail. I think Endwalker is going to end with humanity (by which I mean in all its shapes and sizes including dragons and "beast tribes" and what have you) doing what the Ancients were unable to -- destroy/defeat the Sound fully instead of trapping it (am I remembering that right?) and putting an end to all the echoes of the Ascians' plots. Then it's humanity moving forward into a new era without those old puppet strings, plenty of conflict and high stakes, maybe even old technology and buried secrets, but without the "we've been influencing this since the dawn of time" stuff. There's a long history for the world with a lot of unknowns, and I don't want to insist on discarding that, but I want to avoid leaving this arc just to start an "Ascians but dragon-shaped" or "Ascians but Sound-shaped" one.
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Nov 26, 2021 22:12
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We don't know much about The Sound, but we know that what Zodiark was supposed to do was 'assert the world's law' or somesuch. We've presumed, from our perspective as players, that The Sound was some sort of a Space Monster. But we don't actually know that. They've certainly played off the idea of Space Monsters being a threat we need to consider more often and, when you look at Ultima's design.. and her assertation that she is our REAL creator.. you gotta wonder at least a little. There's a fair bit to her design that also harkens to Anima. I can't help but wonder if they're both referencing to similar roots.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lRjJ72dABg In fact, there's a LOT of her design from the waist down that reminds me entirely too much of a Terminus Beast. Mainly the mouths. Especially the mouths. 'Too many goddamn mouths' seems to be a Terminus Beast design feature. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 22:35
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The Terminus Beasts are creation magic gone wrong though. Every fear and terror made manifest.
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Nov 27, 2021 01:21
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cant wait to fight the terminus beast with a mentor crown
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Nov 27, 2021 01:39
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My first thought with the Sound was a climate change analogy, like overuse of creation magic broke the world somehow. Their solution of course being "throw creation magic at it"
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Nov 27, 2021 01:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:The Terminus Beasts are creation magic gone wrong though. Every fear and terror made manifest. Therion was, apparently, NOT. They didn't know where the hell that thing came from, thus its title of 'Enigma.'
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Nov 27, 2021 01:56
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Gearhead posted:Therion was, apparently, NOT. Interesting, especially given how it looks like a giant musical instrument. It may have been the bearer of the Sound to Amaurot. Or the result of a different Ancient Civilisation losing control.
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Nov 27, 2021 01:59
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Therion turns out to be the end result of Man taking the reins of history.
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Nov 27, 2021 03:19
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FuturePastNow posted:My first thought with the Sound was a climate change analogy, like overuse of creation magic broke the world somehow. Their solution of course being "throw creation magic at it" Oh, there's definitely a climate change analogy going on. Down to the fact that Hydaelyn's supporters even have the same ultimately two-pronged argument as environmental activists: not only that the current status quo is unsustainable, but that it's unethical. Which is part of what concerns me about Endwalker. They really want to push the overall outlook of 'nobody is pure good and pure evil', and I'm worried that will end up leading to a narrative the world really doesn't need right now, of 'what if Captain Planet was the real bad guy'.
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Nov 27, 2021 03:26
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Cleretic posted:Oh, there's definitely a climate change analogy going on. Down to the fact that Hydaelyn's supporters even have the same ultimately two-pronged argument as environmental activists: not only that the current status quo is unsustainable, but that it's unethical. 
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Nov 27, 2021 03:34
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whether ff14 has a militant take on the necessity of environmental terrorism will have no impact on the forthcoming climate apocalypse. our best hope in fact is that yoshiP gets enough power at square enix that he can develop matrix technology to live out our final days in eorzea
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Nov 27, 2021 03:44
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Wow, emotes got tall. But yeah, this is a thing that Yoshi-P actually said in an interview this year. quote:Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion? Essentially, they don't want to tell a story of black-and-white morality anymore. Which is probably why Emet-Selch got all the exploration he did in Shadowbringers; as the plans stood he was probably gonna stand as the most irredeemable monster by his actions, so they did their best to make him less of a Megahitler. I don't disagree with the overall outlook, but I think it's resulted in some weirdness for them to apply that outlook to a setting that very much already had some pretty clearly black-and-white morality among it (...well, pretty clearly black, at least).
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Nov 27, 2021 03:54
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I can really drop in here any old time and y'all will be saying something insaneGearhead posted:Therion was, apparently, NOT. I don't think that's something you can infer from that title, all of it was an enigma to them
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Nov 27, 2021 04:02
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Okay but where does he talk about climate change
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Nov 27, 2021 04:04
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Waffleman_ posted:Okay but where does he talk about climate change Cleretic posted:Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion? seems pretty straightforward
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Nov 27, 2021 04:12
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The absolute worst possible reading you are going to get from FFXIV is "The answer involves putting aside our differences and acknowledging our flaws to create a better society where we worry about each other and the world around us instead of being selfish and self-centered regardless of the harm it causes to others." like the entire rest of the game to date. Like if there is one solid thing we know about Endwalker's story it is that is going to involve everyone coming together and forcing isolationist cultures to recognize that they can't just 'ride out the storm' while letting others suffer.
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Nov 27, 2021 04:15
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I think you will find that the message of Final Fantasy XIV is "Genocide is good, actually."
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Nov 27, 2021 04:18
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Cleretic posted:Oh, there's definitely a climate change analogy going on. Down to the fact that Hydaelyn's supporters even have the same ultimately two-pronged argument as environmental activists: not only that the current status quo is unsustainable, but that it's unethical. There isn't and making it one utterly robs the last 30% of ShB of any actual narrative or emotional weight because it turns the Ancients from Tragic but Heroic figures of self sacrifice the Scions identify with to bumbling idiots that brought their death on themselves. It's got no textual or subtextual basis and is just you contorting the narrative to try and fit your weird brain demons that "Actually I was right to ignore everything from Ravel forward in the plot!"
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Nov 27, 2021 04:51
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Badger of Basra posted:I don't think that's something you can infer from that title, all of it was an enigma to them I was wrong about the actual title, it's been a hot minute since I ran Amurot. Chthonic Riddle. So there's: The First Beast. Terminus Bellweather. Chthonic Riddle.
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Nov 27, 2021 05:04
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Cleretic I am never gonna understand how your brain works
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Nov 27, 2021 06:16
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Let's be fair nobody has a good grasp on how brains work.
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Nov 27, 2021 09:51
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https://twitter.com/AnthonyKaen/status/1464175008247271429?t=5Bz2qw4RrInjZXcApD-FLQ&s=19
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Nov 27, 2021 09:57
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Regy Rusty posted:Cleretic I am never gonna understand how your brain works I hope that FFXIV: Endwalker ends with the Warrior of Light looking at the camera and saying, "I am communist now," and continuing to clarify that he is the same kind of communist as me. We will spend the patches purging our enemies in the Scions and teaching the children the importance of hating religion and individualism. As for the actual story I really doubt they're going to pull some kind of "Actually, the Ancients caused the Sound and it was all their fault, the dummies" on us. If there will be any 'culpability' it will be something like the Sound being attracted by their magicks, which the Ancients had literally no idea would happen and could not predict. It would be like blaming your political enemies for the invasion of the Vermicious Knids: fun, perhaps, but really not much use.
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Nov 27, 2021 11:56
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Regy Rusty posted:Cleretic I am never gonna understand how your brain works start by hating emet to a ridiculous degree because you didn't read and then warp everything else around that
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Nov 27, 2021 14:32
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Lord_Magmar posted:Yes, the seats themselves did not change who you were. But they likely selected people with skills and traits matching the original 14. The Architect apparently was needed to deconstruct things when creation magic got out of hand, that's why he was the swolest Ascian with the most individual combat ability. Lahabrea (the speaker) was the one who actually engendered the most original designs.
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Nov 27, 2021 15:21
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Xad posted:start by hating emet to a ridiculous degree because you didn't read and then warp everything else around that If anything I read too much. I had an immediately negative response to the guy, and despite this was told by a friend 'make sure to always talk to him all the time, because lore'. And... well, he's not exactly someone that I was going to like after spending more time with. Honestly, I don't even hate him a huge amount. If I were to grade him on a like-o-meter I'd put him at, like, a 3/10; failing, and definitely the lowest among the game's cast, but it's not cataclysmic. The problem is he's not really a character that you can just go 'gently caress him, let's move on' like most of the other villains we've gone through (if you hated every second of Thordan screentime or discussion, I feel like you were put out of joint for less than an hour of your life). The game keeps going back to him, the fanbase never stops talking about him, actual gaming news outlets talk about him for some reason. He just keeps coming back up, and honestly if you're like me, 'hated him' isn't really a full enough opinion when he keeps coming up. If I'm forced to keep dealing with this fucker, I'm gonna try to figure out exactly why I think he's a fucker, try to get some personal enjoyment and exploration out of this. People are gonna ask 'why' every time I say I don't like him anyway, might as well have a good answer. Unfortunately, some people take this as a weird hate-obsession.
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Nov 27, 2021 15:28
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I think Cleretic has some tedious takes but the weird level of vitriol she gets is disproportionate to what is being said. And also responding to over-moralizatoon of media with climate doomerism is not the slam dunk you think it is. I like Emet because he exudes theater-gay energy and makes good faces. I lost my poo poo when I went back to do ivalice stuff and found he literally helped fund that theater group because loving of course. He is a bad person with pretty unambiguous fascist justifications for his actions, he's also fun to watch on screen.
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Nov 27, 2021 15:49
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It is explicitly not a purely creation magic based phenomenon because otherwise all the details related to it like an underground sound followed by Cthonic (underworld) Riddle, the fact that we have video evidence of the Hydaelyn faction believing the end days were not permanently resolved, the return of Terminus Beasts in the trailer taking place in a world where creation magic is extinct etc. You would have to ignore all of that and then go further to invite the narrative whiplash of "yeah those people just sort of exploded themselves by accident, the end, no moral" which was definitely not what ShB was trying to communicate.
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Nov 27, 2021 15:55
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Cleretic posted:If anything I read too much. I had an immediately negative response to the guy, and despite this was told by a friend 'make sure to always talk to him all the time, because lore'. And... well, he's not exactly someone that I was going to like after spending more time with. You posted that your hatred is mostly because he reminds you of someone you hate in real life so I'm not sure how people are supposed to take your obsession with him as anything but unhealthy. Algid posted:It is explicitly not a purely creation magic based phenomenon because otherwise all the details related to it like an underground sound followed by Cthonic (underworld) Riddle, the fact that we have video evidence of the Hydaelyn faction believing the end days were not permanently resolved, the return of Terminus Beasts in the trailer taking place in a world where creation magic is extinct etc. It's really cool how people's media literacy has gotten so bad that they desperately want this to happen because any sort of nuance in story telling is too hard or confusing.
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Nov 27, 2021 16:56
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Cleretic posted:I don't know if Shadowbringers brought the people that were the worst at understanding FFXIV's story, but they definitely get way easier to find when talking about it.
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Nov 27, 2021 17:23
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To be a little more fair to everyone's overall levels of reading comprehension, there's a lot more story at this point to remember and to cite.
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Nov 27, 2021 17:32
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I mean, I’ll admit it: I can’t read
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Nov 27, 2021 17:33
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Ash Rose posted:I think Cleretic has some tedious takes but the weird level of vitriol she gets is disproportionate to what is being said. And also responding to over-moralizatoon of media with climate doomerism is not the slam dunk you think it is. It probably has something to do with the 2 and a half years of posting the same handful of wrong readings and warping every plot point to prove those takes that generates the vitriol. Cleretic has posted basically the same poo poo for over 2 years across 2 threads and what was just a bad take or misunderstanding became an incredibly tedious affair every few days where she'll pop up to say something that's just straight up wrong or not supported at all. So any time she posts it's taken by most through this context. Ibram Gaunt posted:You posted that your hatred is mostly because he reminds you of someone you hate in real life so I'm not sure how people are supposed to take your obsession with him as anything but unhealthy. That and she's constantly generated new theories on why she was actually correct about this. Like for years. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 17:52
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Also, Cleretic has an impossibly high and shifting standard for “Good” so there’s absolutely no pleasing them or engaging with them about it. Like they described what a final fantasy should be according to like 10 extremely specific bullet points and it’s basically FFX-2 to a tee but they decided “no thanks” when people recommend they play FFX-2 and then moans that Final Fantasy games aren’t good and are misogynistic or something. FF14 is another thing. It’s really hard to tell if they actually like FF14 or hate FF14, and they say some nonsense about it constantly. Their interpretations of things are usually entirely wrong. That being said they are very knowledgeable about things that actually happened in the game and have excellent recall of minor points. For example they would be able to, in the same sentence, recall an extremely minor character and what their dialogue was perfectly but then also interpret it to mean that Emet-Selch is alive and is the leader of a communist terrorist cell or something stupid, just because they really don’t like Emet-Selch. It’s all just very strange and if you’re thinking about engaging with a Cleretic post, maybe rethink it. It’s almost like they have an agenda but nobody, Cleretic included, knows what it is. jokes fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 17:58
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People are coming up with some really complex diagnoses for something that can be easily summarized as "Cleretic hates being asked to feel sympathy for characters who commit really bad crimes, and is willing to walk a long way to avoid doing so."
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Nov 27, 2021 18:11
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jokes posted:Also, Cleretic has an impossibly high and shifting standard for “Good” so there’s absolutely no pleasing them or engaging with them about it. Like they described what a final fantasy should be according to like 10 extremely specific bullet points and it’s basically FFX-2 to a tee but they decided “no thanks” when people recommend they play FFX-2 and then moans that Final Fantasy games aren’t good and are misogynistic or something. I don't remember if it was in this thread or the other but at the first EW announcement thing She spent like 3 pages melting down because they showed off Radz-It-Han and gave a general overview of how it looked but didn't dare mention that There's A Lot Of Alchemists From There and had a statue that showed off DNC iconography so clearly the writers have just abandoned this key lore to the setting she liked instead of it just not being that important to the overview. The second announcement event had a more detailed look and showed off the insides of a huge Alchemy laboratory with all kinds of equipment and tables and beakers and potions and poo poo while talking about it being a city of crafters and the like. She missed this, then complained about it until several people pointed it out and her response was "Oh I didn't notice the one lab table" when it was a room filled with the poo poo. She doesn't want what she says she wants, she wants to be morally superior for being mad about a thing she made up. It's a pointless exercise to discuss anything with her but she weighs in to most discussions so a lot of people are just tired of it. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 18:53
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