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TGLT posted:Zodiark required the aether to reinforce the laws of reality to whatever they were. It might have required more to keep things going, I forget. Emet's plan was to feed it everyone else to liberate the souls of the Amaurotines so it's probably not above doing more chowing down, assuming those souls can even be liberated and Emet wasn't just completely deluded. It would not be unexpected if, like nearly every other primal, Zodiark sought to grow and expand it's influence - a process which would probs require more sacrifice. It ought to be extra unexpected since we just had a whole expansion that associated darkness with activity and change. Zodiark doesn't have independent thought, as far as we know or expect. Like someone said earlier it's a machine created by the Convocation to do certain specific (through very spectacular) things - this is like saying a car hungers for more gasoline or something
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Nov 27, 2021 21:52
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Gearhead posted:Honestly, the thing I may be looking forward to the most is the idea that Hades is, somehow, going to be our narrator for this. Gonna somewhat rain on everyone's parade a bit just by saying that the narrator of Endwalker isn't necessarily Hades, since the launch trailer narrator for Shadowbringers was Exarch, but the real narrator ended up being Ardbert, (though Ardbert did get a line in the launch trailer).
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Nov 27, 2021 21:53
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Badger of Basra posted:Zodiark doesn't have independent thought, as far as we know or expect. Like someone said earlier it's a machine created by the Convocation to do certain specific (through very spectacular) things - this is like saying a car hungers for more gasoline or something Every other primal has taken on a life of its own beyond its summoners. It may be that they go the route that Zodiark is machine-like in thought, or even monstrous in a xenomorph "amoral but not willfully cruel" sense, but it's pretty unlikely Zodiark is comparable to a car. Cars don't talk. Yet. The rest of the Ascians have certainly talked about Zodiark as if it were an independent being, even if it was one who's personality and objectives they determined when it was born.
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Nov 27, 2021 22:07
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Zodiark required the sacrifice because he requires an astronomical amount of aether to do his thing. He isn't demanding sacrifice like some sort of blood god. It's a pretty big distinction! If you could theoretically have generated enough aether through other means, he still would have functioned. Why do blood gods keep wanting people to be killed. If I were a blood god I’d want people to keep their blood inside their body, where I intended for it to be
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Nov 27, 2021 22:08
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No no that's a god of blood. Blood god means they like to drink blood, like "I'm a coffee guy" except it's blood.
TGLT fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 22:10
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TGLT posted:Every other primal has taken on a life of its own beyond its summoners. Except Ysayle's Shiva, which is probably our best reference for "primal using a mortal as its heart."
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Nov 27, 2021 22:22
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Rand Brittain posted:Except Ysayle's Shiva, which is probably our best reference for "primal using a mortal as its heart." Shiva was never summoned for more than a few minutes at a time though. She never had time to do anything but lose to us/Ravana/Regulus.
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Nov 27, 2021 22:28
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That may be what the role of the heart ends up being, but we did just rip out Zodiark's heart. Plus Elidibus was pretty wonky by the end of things there so who's to say if it's a perfect limiter. Might be why Hydaelyn's managed to stay on track though. Also doesn't Ryne lose control basically immediately when she tries to summon Shiva into herself? So not a foolproof workaround. TGLT fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 22:33
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The thing about Emet-Selch is that he's extremely smug and arbitrarily powerful such that he only really ever loses on his own terms, which is exactly what you don't ever want to see someone do in the context of freeform chatroom RP.
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Nov 27, 2021 22:41
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TGLT posted:That may be what the role of the heart ends up being, but we did just rip out Zodiark's heart. Plus Elidibus was pretty wonky by the end of things there so who's to say if it's a perfect limiter. Might be why Hydaelyn's managed to stay on track though. Ysayle also probably had a more secure personal identity (even if it later proved wrong).
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Nov 27, 2021 22:45
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Gearhead posted:I look at it from the perspective of: I can feel bad for the person they were while thwarting the person they became. I think for me is the issue of that I can't comprehend how anyone could. I seriously cannot comprehend the mindspace that says "yes, I will genocide all life on the planet that doesn't look like me at the chance to bring some people back". 
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Nov 27, 2021 23:00
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would you genocide all the worms on the planet to bring some humans back
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Nov 27, 2021 23:02
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Super No Vacancy posted:would you genocide all the worms on the planet to bring some humans back It probably helps that he is immune to any agencies of justice including death, outside of, say, being filled with white auracite and hit with a warp x100 Light Kamehameha, but what are the odds of THAT
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Nov 27, 2021 23:04
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Kyrosiris posted:I think for me is the issue of that I can't comprehend how anyone could. I seriously cannot comprehend the mindspace that says "yes, I will genocide all life on the planet that doesn't look like me at the chance to bring some people back". Emet-Selch was brainwashed by a being more powerful than himself into seeing that being as the solution to his problems, and he could literally see a person's soul and determine that they had as much spiritual presence in the cosmos as say, a parrot, compared to himself. He was surrounded by a funhouse of people that looked like people, were pieces of people, but were not fully PEOPLE to his eyes. And the dark god in the back of his mind was telling him that all it was going to take to fix EVERYTHING was a few more of these not-people being thrown into the fire.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:05
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It's like how Obi Wan can cheerfully cut down hundreds of battle droids without ever reflecting on the fact that his victims can talk, visibly feel fear, sometimes attempt to surrender, etc.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:09
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Super No Vacancy posted:would you genocide all the worms on the planet to bring some humans back Yeah, ES doesn't even consider us sentient beings because we're sundered or whatever.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:25
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Nah he considers us sentient, just "pale imitations" who live lives "devoid of meaning." Like we're not philosophical zombies to him also if part of my plot to genocide the worms involved settling down and raising multiple families with them, I'd hope I'd start to reconsider some things
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Nov 27, 2021 23:29
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TGLT posted:Nah he considers us sentient, just "pale imitations" who live lives "devoid of meaning." Like we're not philosophical zombies to him I think there is something in ES that was always trying to find an escape hatch. He knew he was Tempered, remember. But when his actions intruded into the possibility of disrupting The Great Work, his brainwashing would kick in and everything would sour. 'This is nice, my son is clever and strong, my nation is strong.' 'My son has died. The entire world is a horrible, flawed mockery of the proper world and everything needs to be burned.'
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Nov 27, 2021 23:35
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Maybe sentient is the wrong word. I have been drinking for a few hours. Oh man, ES considers us like the beast tribes. Capable of power but not one that he (and we) can't put down.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:38
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Yeah he's way more of a supremacist. Not in the least bit surprising his grandson is Varis.Gearhead posted:I think there is something in ES that was always trying to find an escape hatch. He knew he was Tempered, remember. But when his actions intruded into the possibility of disrupting The Great Work, his brainwashing would kick in and everything would sour. I mean yeah, the brainwashing doesn't help although the sunk cost fallacy might be more to blame. I just thought the comparisons to worms were funny because in this metaphor Emet-Selch is a worm fucker. Unrelated, but can we talk about how hosed up it is that we don't get an opportunity to circle back to Loonh Gah and help untemper her mom? I was waiting for that when we finally started reversing some tempering but nah.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:42
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TGLT posted:Unrelated, but can we talk about how hosed up it is that we don't get an opportunity to circle back to Loonh Gah and help untemper her mom? I was waiting for that when we finally started reversing some tempering but nah. When you consider that the Brotherhood of Ash has been working on reversing Tempering for a long time, the moment they got one of those Porxies, they probably rolled out and did exactly that. This is one of those things I would expect to see getting mentioned somewhere down the road. Keep in mind, not everyone has done quests with the BoA. They wouldn't know who she is.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:46
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Gearhead posted:When you consider that the Brotherhood of Ash has been working on reversing Tempering for a long time, the moment they got one of those Porxies, they probably rolled out and did exactly that. This is one of those things I would expect to see getting mentioned somewhere down the road. Yeah, I'm assuming there was a lot of beast tribes diplomacy off-screen. You see all of them helping the Eorzea Alliance in Paglth'an, I wouldn't be surprised if we circled back to some of those events in EW or the patches.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:53
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Yeah I figure we were there for the big feature demonstration and Alisaie was probably busting her rear end doing intense pig training for all interested parties, probably with an eye towards having them train other people. There's gonna be a lot of pigs out there. 
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Nov 28, 2021 00:05
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I mean I'm sure it's happening and/or already happened but I wanted to be there for it. I like Loonh Gah.
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Nov 28, 2021 00:16
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Blockhouse posted:stolen from reddit but I'm kicking myself for not putting this together with EW's platinum color theme This whole time we assumed Zenos would fuse with Zodiark, but….. Also, re: Cleretic - they annoy the gently caress out of me with their bad takes, but I still want her around forever. <3
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Nov 28, 2021 00:50
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Speaking as the Lore Thread IK for WoW. Nobody is as bad as Mister Bibs or possibly more relative to the Cleretic discussion, Fojar38 who hates Sylvanas and the Forsaken so much that they would derail threads entirely to have pointless slap fights. Those two posters are threadbanned from the Lore Thread because they do not actually want to discuss things they just want to post their own opinions as fact and twist the entire story into knots to fit.
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Nov 28, 2021 01:33
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Yeah Cleretic has terrible opinions and is very obstinate but she’s always welcome
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Nov 28, 2021 01:49
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Oh god, MisterBibs. I’m not familiar with his WoW opinions, but I think he would like Emet. He’s been voted as the best FF character in polls, therefore he is the best FF character. Majority opinion is always correct. I better stop talking about him, I don’t want to summon him.
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Nov 28, 2021 01:57
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I just want everyone to have a good time in Endwalker, including Zenos and Fandaniel
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Nov 28, 2021 02:32
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I don't know MisterBibs' Lorepinions on things, but I do know that he is the most obstinately wrong person in the 'things dragging games down' thread. I believe he was the one that compulsively reloads XCOM to make sure he never gets hit, and then complained that XCOM was too easy and no fun.Ferrinus posted:The thing about Emet-Selch is that he's extremely smug and arbitrarily powerful such that he only really ever loses on his own terms, which is exactly what you don't ever want to see someone do in the context of freeform chatroom RP. And yeah, when I said 'he reminds me of lovely people I know', this is near-exactly what came to mind. Although in my experience it's not chatroom RP so much as MMO RP, which is really just a difference of degrees. I've met way too many of these people, and they all act like Emet-Selch both in and out of character. And they get outright abusive if you disagree.
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Nov 28, 2021 02:44
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one big difference is that the story allows emet-selch to lose his big climactic fight
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Nov 28, 2021 02:47
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Consummate Professional posted:Yeah, ES doesn't even consider us sentient beings because we're sundered or whatever. I'm specifically referring to before that - the attempted use of Zodiark that Hydaelyn interrupted. I cannot fathom having such a god complex to say "well, we saved the universe, but it's not how I want it, so all this stuff I just made, I'm going to genocide". That's where I lose the sympathy. Before that? Yeah, it's a horrible no-win situation and the best* out of a bunch of bad answers. But to me, it both cheapens the initial sacrifice to save the world that caused Zodiark to exist in the first place and is monstrous beyond my ability to reckon to basically say "yeah, but this isn't right so kill it all". (*at least as far as we know which admittedly is limited to Emet's retelling of Amaurot; we have no idea what Azem could've done, but with the assumption that Emet's retelling is accurate, the situation on the ground was so hosed that "we have to do anything" is very understandable) Kyrosiris fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 02:49
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I don't believe they intended to sacrifice sentient life to return the world how it was, but also at that point they're tempered and the Convocation's desire was to "fix the world". A world that is visibly different from the world before isn't really fixed or saved depending on your perspective, if the specific goal when summoning Zodiark was to undo the End of Days (which it didn't even do the first time, it required a second sacrifice of half the remaining population) then a new world isn't undoing it, it's creating something past it.
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Nov 28, 2021 02:58
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Rand Brittain posted:People are coming up with some really complex diagnoses for something that can be easily summarized as "Cleretic hates being asked to feel sympathy for characters who commit really bad crimes, and is willing to walk a long way to avoid doing so." That is not the reason she first gave in the main thread when she first posted about this. But also: jokes posted:Yeah Cleretic has terrible opinions and is very obstinate but she’s always welcome
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Nov 28, 2021 03:01
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Kyrosiris posted:I'm specifically referring to before that - the attempted use of Zodiark that Hydaelyn interrupted. I cannot fathom having such a god complex to say "well, we saved the universe, but it's not how I want it, so all this stuff I just made, I'm going to genocide". I mean yeah, this is the moment Emet and the Convocation lose Venat and company as well. It's a profoundly selfish thing to do, even though it is cloaked in words of selflessness. And Emet isn't even sure it will work. He assumes Zodiark can bring people back, but he's tempered. You can't trust his judgement when it comes to feeding aether to the primal he's enthralled to.
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Nov 28, 2021 03:06
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sweet geek swag posted:I mean yeah, this is the moment Emet and the Convocation lose Venat and company as well. It's a profoundly selfish thing to do, even though it is cloaked in words of selflessness. And Emet isn't even sure it will work. He assumes Zodiark can bring people back, but he's tempered. You can't trust his judgement when it comes to feeding aether to the primal he's enthralled to. He already saw the thing bring back the laws of physics in one sacrifice and then breathe life into the dead and ruined world left by the end of days with the second. There's no textual basis to doubt this guy couldn't do some extreme bullshit.
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Nov 28, 2021 03:22
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These "Zodiark is definitely evil" takes are getting really tortured
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Nov 28, 2021 03:28
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Why would zodiark temper him to do any of that stuff? Or even temper him at all? Were they getting tempered every time they made a burger with creation magic?
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Nov 28, 2021 03:33
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Cleretic posted:I don't know MisterBibs' Lorepinions on things, but I do know that he is the most obstinately wrong person in the 'things dragging games down' thread. I believe he was the one that compulsively reloads XCOM to make sure he never gets hit, and then complained that XCOM was too easy and no fun. lol
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Nov 28, 2021 03:33
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I'm still a huge fan of zodiark as tataru. I dont care how disconnected from reality it is.
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Nov 28, 2021 03:34
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