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hyphz posted:I remember it too! It came on a CD-ROM in the back of the first printings of the 3e PHB. It was incredibly helpful (although it was very confusing if you were used to D&D 2e) There was a fleshed out/updated version available later called Master Tools, that was the one for download.
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Nov 29, 2021 17:14
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hyphz posted:What I don't remember is ever downloading it like Gradenko mentioned. Maybe that came later? it was a free program so it made its way onto the internet pretty sure I got mine from FilePlanet
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Nov 29, 2021 17:17
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SkyeAuroline posted:Congratulations, bold text you found my perfect games, how did you know I treasure my copy of Spire so much? That's the goal, part of that now is finding a GM to do it. We were trying to make it happen with Hard Wired Island but got sidetracked fast from my preferred "class struggle in a space city" to "hunting robot cryptids in the maintenance corridors". Might be doing it again when the new Tribe 8 edition releases since our GM is a huge fan and really wants to do it justice, and I enjoy the social themes of the game and seeking liberation for the people of the tribes. Let's hope they don't gently caress up the new edition... That said, everyone deals with stuff in their own way and when the world is big and scary and complicated it's nice for your escapism to have a few simple, straightforward problems like "Rampaging Robot from the Last War" and a few simple, straightforward solutions like "Hit it until it falls down." How much time did your Hardwired Island spend derailed? If it was clear that they'd given up on the class warfare part that you were there for entirely then yeah, lost cause, but if it was only a few sessions it's OK to take a break from smashing capitalism to go hunt some robot cryptids for a while. And sometimes the robot cryptids are real and know secrets!
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Nov 29, 2021 17:22
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Hanukkah overlapped with Thanksgiving weekend this year, so I've been very reflective over the weekend. I'm grateful for this subforum. You're all misanthropic assholes and you're all wrong about everything, but I have learned a lot about role playing and board games from all of you, and my games, and as such my life, are better because of you.
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Nov 29, 2021 17:27
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SkyeAuroline posted:The latter. I can usually have a broad goal - tying into next quote, I did spin up some Godbound character-crafting a while ago with the end goal of "have a folk hero overthrow the iron boyars of Nezdohva". Stumbling block: step 1 of doing literally anything, not helped by an entire nation of robot-Tsarist-Russia getting one two-column page of details to cover every possible thing to use as a "lever". (And not helped by Godbound's systems being jacked in general.) I think you don't need to be too down on yourself in this case because what you describe is a problem with many game settings. They imply that it's a world in which one person can make a difference, but don't describe how or give enough detail to determine how. I'm surprised that you cite Spire because I have exactly the same problem with that game, to the extent that I asked on the Spire Discord and the author actually admitted that "it's not a game of playing a revolution. It's a game of playing revolutionaries" and it wasn't designed with any way there from here. (Not as bad as Galt in the Pathfinder books, which is an entire country that exists for playing out revolution stories, but rather than having an undefeatable government it just immediately revolts again against any government installed by the last revolution!) To some extent this is the result of RPGs buying in on the "great person model" that historians don't like. See, now you can play the great person! Except that in many cases, those great people were heavily supported by circumstances and trends at the time. How that integrates with agency, god only knows.
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Nov 29, 2021 17:27
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Baldur's Gate 2 had a copy, iirc. I remember making a ton of characters using that thing without having any idea how the rules work. I spent hours buying poo poo like chalk and grappling hooks. SkyeAuroline posted:Diagnosed and poorly medicated severe depression and ADHD, diagnosed autism. I know my poo poo's hosed and I do see a doctor. Just trying not to wallow in "brain broke do nothing" and figure out how to actually do something. 
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Nov 29, 2021 17:30
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hyphz posted:"it's not a game of playing a revolution. It's a game of playing revolutionaries"
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Nov 29, 2021 17:32
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Splicer posted:When I said that "I doubt most people even consider it a problem" I didn't mean it wasn't a problem for them, I meant that it's probably not something people even think about. Of course we just react to what the villain of the week is up to, that's what Heroes(tm) do! That most people don't even recognise this assumption is itself a problem. The whole campaign rerouted and was staying on that plot, so... yeah. We were sticking with robot cryptid hunting and not really doing anything else. That much was confirmed to be continuing. (I was on board with it to start, knew going in that we were going to be doing that, just figured they'd be interacting more with... everything else than they actually ended up.) hyphz posted:I think you don't need to be too down on yourself in this case because what you describe is a problem with many game settings. They imply that it's a world in which one person can make a difference, but don't describe how or give enough detail to determine how. I'm surprised that you cite Spire because I have exactly the same problem with that game, to the extent that I asked on the Spire Discord and the author actually admitted that "it's not a game of playing a revolution. It's a game of playing revolutionaries" and it wasn't designed with any way there from here. (Not as bad as Galt in the Pathfinder books, which is an entire country that exists for playing out revolution stories, but rather than having an undefeatable government it just immediately revolts again against any government installed by the last revolution!) I appreciate Spire more for at least trying to let you be revolutionaries instead of the usual "what are you, stupid? you want to help people? gently caress off, work for profit" that allegedly-punk games give. A better fit is probably Misspent Youth but I don't have nearly the breadth of experience with it that I do with RRD's catalogue (I was a Heart playtester and own their whole catalogue). Spire definitely isn't a perfect success in that regard, but I can't think of anything that really is. I know someone tried hacking Blades in the Dark to let you do revolution but no idea how it turned out and the average FitD quality doesn't leave me holding my breath. You happen to know any games that do manage it well? Siivola posted:I'm sorry, that was not cool of me. You're all good, I assumed good intent with it, just wasn't sugarcoating the situation. I've spent long enough in my own head trying to think my way around this, or convince myself "RPGs aren't for me and I should just stop trying" even if RPG thoughts occupy a good hour or two minimum of my thoughts every waking day. Rather solve the problem if I can by now. Part of that is therapy, but that relies on the availability of therapy and that's drat near nonexistent right now.
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Nov 29, 2021 17:37
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hyphz posted:Not as bad as Galt in the Pathfinder books, which is an entire country that exists for playing out revolution stories, but rather than having an undefeatable government it just immediately revolts again against any government installed by the last revolution!
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Nov 29, 2021 17:38
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The approach I tend to take as a GM is to work out what my party's broad goals are, and then whenever I'm coming up with plot, ask myself "how can my players use this to drive their broad goals?" If it won't, it's back to the drawing board. As a player, it's A-OK to put this question to the GM. If you want to play a character who is all about overthrowing the corrupt boyars, ask your GM: "What are the main things standing between my character and overthrowing the corrupt boyars?" I'm delighted when players ask me things like this, because now rather than rescuing a random boring villager from random boring bandits, now they're rescuing a vital rebel informant from a rival faction of anti-boyar rebels who want them dead. E: though it's worth considering that a lot of the time, if you're playing a character in a setting about solving your problems with violence, an answer to the question of "how can my character best achieve their goals" will be "you need more money, bigger guns, and friends who owe you a favour", which kinda justifies any plot you engage in. Whybird fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Nov 29, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 17:53
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SkyeAuroline posted:I appreciate Spire more for at least trying to let you be revolutionaries instead of the usual "what are you, stupid? you want to help people? gently caress off, work for profit" that allegedly-punk games give. A better fit is probably Misspent Youth but I don't have nearly the breadth of experience with it that I do with RRD's catalogue (I was a Heart playtester and own their whole catalogue). Spire definitely isn't a perfect success in that regard, but I can't think of anything that really is. I know someone tried hacking Blades in the Dark to let you do revolution but no idea how it turned out and the average FitD quality doesn't leave me holding my breath. You happen to know any games that do manage it well? Sadly not that I have enough experience with to say (I want to write Golden Sky Stories but I have no idea if it does it well). I think this was actually the original "Ludonarrative Dissonance" before meaning decay got to it - that Bioshock is supposedly about the flaws in Objectivism, but in fact the player is expected to act - and be motivated by acting - in an Objectivist way throughout, ie doing whatever will result in increased power for themselves. That said, cyber"punk" hasn't really been punk for ages. I still think that in that kind of setting ludditepunk should be a thing..
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Nov 29, 2021 19:02
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You can play a revolution in Spire, just that's the end of the campaign. It's not built for simulating rebuilding the Spire as a more just society aftet the aelfir and their supporters fall, and the mechanics are built around being a little force against the big forces. I appreciate that Spire and Heart are both pretty upfront about what they model and specific shortcomings like not being designed for epic sprawling character arcs in multi year campaigns. Though at this point I've also had decent success running Heart as a pretty straight forward exploration game with my group, which surprised me. Though admittedly I haven't thrown any particularly tough combat at the group yet, and there's been less than 1 fight per session. So I'm not exactly going with a d&d style dungeon crawl. hyphz posted:
I'd say a bigger problem is the good ending's requirements. Even if you save every little sister you see, if you missed one via rng in an early area you get the exact same ending as if you were a child murderer doing whatever it took to make yourself stronger. Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Nov 29, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 20:31
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Coolness Averted posted:You can play a revolution in Spire, just that's the end of the campaign. It's not built for simulating rebuilding the Spire as a more just society aftet the aelfir and their supporters fall, and the mechanics are built around being a little force against the big forces. You can play it but the setting description doesn't really make it clear how to do it. There's plenty of adventures and suggestions built around correcting injustices in the city but none where it's clear that you've knocked down a domino that ends with the aelfir being completely displaced. And while it might be possible to come up with something that allow that, it's going to be very difficult to do it with full PC agency in the way that Skye seemed to be talking about. quote:Eh, I don't know if that's quite fair. If you act that way you get the bad ending. Hell the only way to get the good ending is to go out of your way to rescue all of the little sisters. Except that rescuing them ultimately gets you more ADAM than harvesting them does. It's the old dumb kid's broken moral story of "here's a full wallet and here's an empty one, you honestly answered that the empty one was yours so you actually get the full one too as a reward for your honesty". Even getting the good ending is an objectivist goal within the limits of the game. If I recall the bad ending has you going off to conquer the rest of the world with your new powers - so imagine for a moment, that if you got that bad ending, the game carried on and you actually got to play a second half of the game as a strategic simulation of conquering the world; suddenly it's not such a bad ending any more, is it?
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Nov 29, 2021 20:52
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Also I really wish that Paizo had put a PF2e character Generator on a USB in the back of the book. It would make it 100x more accessible. As it is you have to use the web or Android app written by one dude and his dog, or shell out a subscription for Hero Lab to learn that’s basically four dudes and their dog. Don’t get me wrong, the one dude actually did a brilliant job, but it’s still pretty daft that Paizo would depend on that.
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Nov 29, 2021 22:08
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They are literally making their own and have put out a press release to that effect.
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Nov 29, 2021 22:28
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Toshimo posted:They are literally making their own and have put out a press release to that effect. If by that you mean "they are, more than a year after the game was released, subcontracting a firm to produce an additional full-loss subscription service that might include character generation but doesn't yet, without exclusivity" then yes. But that's a far cry from "here's the new D&D revolution and here's a shiny character generator right here on day 1 that runs on your PC and you can keep forever"
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Nov 29, 2021 22:38
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hyphz posted:Also I really wish that Paizo had put a PF2e character Generator on a USB in the back of the book. It would make it 100x more accessible. Paizo was incredibly overtaxed and understaffed at the time that the pathfinder 2e core rulebooks came out. Completing the rules was pretty much all they had capacity for.
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Nov 29, 2021 22:40
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Terrible Opinions posted:Canon Galt is so bad. If forced to run a game in Golarion I would just have each "revolution" be an election and the rest of the continent is feudalism brainwashed enough to not understand peaceful transitions of power. Yeah of course there is shouting in the streets don't you guys know how to throw a part when your team wins? Major spoilers for the recent Galt adventure they put out (Night of the Grey Death) but at least according to that adventure the real reason for the trouble is a nasty uber-powerful creature called a conqueror worm that's been deliberately stirring up poo poo (but not to utter ruin) for the years in question because the race in question pretty much gets off on social chaos and mass bloodshed like they're playing an especially dickish game of Crusader Kings. A level 21 super-genius monster with NASTY and wide-ranging mind reading/control abilities (and is outright be worshipped as a god by the cultists it's got infiltrated around everywhere) is a pretty big thumb to put on the scales against people trying to make a stable society; also calls the thing out as being "heavy-handed and overt" by its race's standards to boot. Adventure comes from it deciding it was done playing and trying to utterly annihilate Galt and move on to another country to screw up. Assuming the PCs do the usual hero things, which at level 16 for the module they should be experienced at, they kill the thing (in theory, it's got an extremely effective escape mechanism it might use too) and work out how to destroy the soul-eating guillotines being used with abandon in Galt. So it's pretty likely major changes are coming to Galt now, and the only reason it took so long was deliberate powerful magic interference. Your call whether that's enough justification for how it was written, but I'm willing to allow suspension of disbelief at uncontrolled chaos reigning that long in a country if there's a severe unnatural reason for it.
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Nov 29, 2021 22:56
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Definitely falls into the pile of something that would have been a decent enough initial reason, but has been sitting their without explanation long enough that it feels like a dumb retcon.
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Nov 29, 2021 23:10
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It’s giving me some hardcore 7th Sea vibes.
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Nov 29, 2021 23:13
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So I was just looking at new releases and I saw an extremely fantasy heartbreaker pop up. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/377956/Logical-Fantasy-Gaming-Rulebook The list of classes should drive the last nail into the coffin for any hope that it's not just 3e house rules or whatever, but there's one amazing and wonderful thing in there. Looking through the preview, my mind is most blown by the starting gear: a level 1 character begins play with 3 belt pouches, 1 back sheath or bandolier, 2 side sheaths or quivers, and 2 leg sheaths. So many pouches! And you get a bunch of gold to buy more, but at least no-one is going pouchless in these fearsomely logical fantasy lands.
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Nov 29, 2021 23:17
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90s Cringe Rock posted:So I was just looking at new releases and I saw an extremely fantasy heartbreaker pop up. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/377956/Logical-Fantasy-Gaming-Rulebook The list of classes should drive the last nail into the coffin for any hope that it's not just 3e house rules or whatever, but there's one amazing and wonderful thing in there. Tag yourself, I'm Goblin (Heroic)
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Nov 29, 2021 23:36
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Just the book I needed, I was thinking fantasy wasn't logical enough.Absurd Alhazred posted:Tag yourself, I'm Goblin (Heroic) I'm the glowing, effusive description of each race's eye colors.
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Nov 29, 2021 23:45
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I will play a Neanderthal Fighter and advance to the 9th level in order to become Captain Caveman
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Nov 29, 2021 23:56
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Arivia posted:Paizo was incredibly overtaxed and understaffed at the time that the pathfinder 2e core rulebooks came out. Completing the rules was pretty much all they had capacity for.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:01
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Terrible Opinions posted:Definitely falls into the pile of something that would have been a decent enough initial reason, but has been sitting their without explanation long enough that it feels like a dumb retcon.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:16
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"What sets LFG apart from other games? Well for starters it's 830 pages long."
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Nov 30, 2021 00:20
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I so want to see the spell descriptions which "consider the impacts of things such as inertia, gravity, biology, and chemistry." Fireball: You create a small burst of fire around 5' in diameter. Then you collapse from energy loss.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:23
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Imagine, just fifteen years ago a poor soul like that would have had to actually throw a significant part of their savings or take out a second mortgage to print out several thousands of these which would have ended up being pulped.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:23
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regarding D&D character creators from last page... The creator posted on the last page was, indeed, included on a CD-ROM with the 3.0 PHB. It looked good and worked well, so of course, we weren't allowed to keep it. Core Rules was published by TSR in 1998, for 2nd edition AD&D; it contained a bunch of the rule books in RTF and Windows Help formats (lol) without art, but it also had a Key Topics file with hyperlinked rules reference - I believe that may have been the first of its kind. There was also a character generator included, and Map Maker II, which had campaign and dungeon mapping capabilities. There was also a dice roller and an encounter tool for figuring out monsters, treasure, etc.. in 1999, Core Rules II came out, adding about a dozen more books, updated programs including the ability to use custom character classes in the character creator, all of the original books from Core Rules I in HTML format, some dungeon furniture and interior stuff for Map Maker II, and more. The two sets were remarkable in several ways, not least of them the value (which in turn is exemplary of the final days of TSR); they basically gave away several hundred dollars worth of D&D books, sans-art, in formats that were trivially-copyable. They also showed that it was possible to make and sell functional software supplements for D&D; I think that's halfway to why Wizards felt obliged to include a CD with a character creator and other tools in the first release of 3rd edition, for free. And this was part of why folks were peeved with 3.5. OK, not only do we have to buy a new book, but there's no included tools? Just... none. gently caress it. Abandon that project after investing in it initially, instead of making the much less expensive incremental changes needed to support a new edition. We got no first-party software tools for 3.5. It sold well, there was money, it's hard to argue that it just wasn't feasible. The online 3.5 hyperlinked SRD was a big plus, in that it at least gave us a little bit of what we had for 2nd edition, but it was limited in scope.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:29
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SkyeAuroline posted:
TBH I don't think that talking about sadbrains stuff is at all off limits for RPG chat. The main reason I prefer to play RPGs over running them is that when I'm running them I'm constantly going "oh no I'm wasting everyone's time and doing a terrible job and it is my fault that everyone's saturday is being wasted because I'm a crap GM" and really my players are always very happy with what I do, it is clearly an issue of excessive self-criticism and such. It is ultimately the major limiting factor in me running games, which has turned into "a major obstacle for all of my RPG groups." The most valuable thing for me to do for being a better GM is to, well, manage this particular anxiety I have. I agree with Splicer's thing about contemporary fiction often prioritizing reactive protagonists though I'd caveat that I think Splicer is mostly referring to heroic storytelling. And RPGs tend to be oriented around heroic stories, but I don't think you have to limit yourself to considering stories with reactive protagonists. Proactive protagonists are pretty common in litfic, and I think again that looking at those kinds of protagonists - characters who are defined not by 'saving people' but by following an impulse - that might give you some ability to break out of this slump. It must be said that for certain games this will go over very poorly. Notably any game where the major question at the table is "can the PCs overcome this challenge." If it's highly uncertain if you'll be able to kill the battlebots and the system is built on assuming that the PCs are all in it together to kill the battlebots or they perish, then you're just going to piss people off by doing things that endanger your ability to kill the battlebots. But I think that many, many systems and tables have the slack where a PC that does a little light treason on the party to indulge their curiosity or sense of honor or wrath. The block you're having is that you're not successfully putting yourself in the shoes of somebody who can't not do something. Do you think you might need to identify less with your character and treat them more instrumentally?
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Nov 30, 2021 00:29
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Hey speaking of tools - is there any character generator for 13A that isn't garbage?
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Nov 30, 2021 00:38
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Splicer posted:Haha! Our "Only crazy revolution-for-revolution's-sake lunatics would think of deposing the aristocracy" country is ACTUALLY an "Only people mind controlled by worms would think of deposing the aristocracy" country! Bet you feel bad for doubting us!
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Nov 30, 2021 00:55
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Terrible Opinions posted:Still not as bad as the eugenics dragon, child molester mechanics, or skull measuring. what?
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Nov 30, 2021 02:11
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How many Republics/Empires/Dynasties did France go through in two centuries? Not thaaat crazy, when executed well.
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Nov 30, 2021 02:23
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If you want a game where party actions incrementally change the world for the better, the first one that leaps to mind is Underground. Underground even has a system where improving some things can potentially cause other things to slide, requiring the characters to be both pro- and reactive depending on the sort of society they want to end up with. Then you have other games where you're just fighting an evil empire and toppling that causes everything to be great forever, like Star Wars or Fellowship using the Empire framework. I mean, there's no reason to stop at the death of the Evil Imperator if the players don't want to, but it's sort of implied in the setting.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:50
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It would be very cool if Underground had better mechanics and also had a second pass on some of its idea but I do deeply appreciate it for being a game about superpowers and actually giving enough of a poo poo to try and fix things because the situation is awful and untenable.
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Nov 30, 2021 04:07
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Hostile V posted:It would be very cool if Underground had better mechanics and also had a second pass on some of its idea but I do deeply appreciate it for being a game about superpowers and actually giving enough of a poo poo to try and fix things because the situation is awful and untenable. Ah, here it is:  Also, once you've achieved your campaign goal, the parameters revert to where they were when you started unless you spend 5x as many reward points to make the changes permanent. poo poo's hard, yo.
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Nov 30, 2021 04:29
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Also, like a true 1990s game, in UNDERGROUND the Reward Points that you get for completing scenarios can be used to change the world's social parameters (making the world a better place, presumably) OR raising your skill/power levels (standard XP spending) OR buying metagame currency (karma points).
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Nov 30, 2021 04:33
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All this talk of systemic change is reminding me of some posts over in the Goblin thread a while ago about Goblin Labor movements and how I started expanding that into a setting concept about a revolution among the underclasses against their overlords in what could be summed up as "Interdimensional Victorian British Empire but it's ruled by rear end in a top hat High Elves" that I should really start posting about somewhere cause it's a fun idea
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Nov 30, 2021 05:22
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