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Megazver posted:hwehll ackshually While of course Caitlyn is for the ladies I did think the possibility was funny that the guy Vi shoved at her initially did not leave because she expressed no interest but instead because he got extremely bored by her hilariously meandering and badly accented 'cover story.'
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Nov 29, 2021 19:00
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Was looking around at Arcane stuff on youtube and stumbled across this AMV someone made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghhb2yDELv8 Feels like the music fit surprisingly well considering that the music in question was made by Riot for something else entirely.
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Nov 29, 2021 22:43
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So Grace Randholp says she managed to contact some Fortiche people and, according to them, S2 is "very, very far away. 2024 at most". Goddam I still hope for a 2023 window
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Nov 30, 2021 01:58
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Personal_Nirvana posted:So Grace Randholp says she managed to contact some Fortiche people and, according to them, S2 is "very, very far away. 2024 at most". Definitely not surprising if that's the case, though I'm also hoping for 2023. It's admittedly one of those rare cases where I'm willing to be patient with a piece of media, because the long development cycle produced a truly stellar result, and I wouldn't want a rushed second half that disappoints the first.
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Nov 30, 2021 02:21
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Episode 9 suffered alot from Jinx been a terrible character. Alongside that, these final back 3 episodes really didn't work narratively, and had alot of wasted space. The group of 5 wildly overdesigned villain characters who were maybe going to overthrow Billco ended up superfluous. I expected that they were brought in for that one scene so that the show had some visually distinct villains to kill off in cool fight scenes, but nope, two of the characters appeared for a boring coup and the rest hosed off into oblivion. Likewise, green goo man (so much goo this season) was superfluous, the show would have been alot stronger without him. The firelighters were also largely superfluous for how much screen time they had, as was Heimerdinger. Lmao that Sky existed just to be fridged. Viktor's core character arc been "oh, I'm engaging in a bunch of dangerous scientific experiments that I should perhaps stop?" was poorly executed. Heimerdinger repeatedly saying "woah nelly, lets slow this horse DOWN" is not the same as showing escalating danger and harm from the experiments. They needed a scene where Viktor see's the experiment cause harm to somebody else, and then decides to continue the experiments anyway. Instead, that time was eaten by Viktor hopping onboard the goo train. On the note of politics, wow, this show sucks. LGBT+ wise, the show's first and only(?) trans character is a trans coded sex worker, who gets to appear standing next to an elderly sex worker sexually harassing a child. Oof. Someone quoted earlier in the thread a writer talking about how they had to fight multiple times in the writers room to keep some of the queer representation between Vi and Cait in, and that's telling. Ableism wise, they just keep introducing more villains with face scars, the pattern continues. Also, Jayce and Viktor now BOTH having interrupted each other in the midst of a suicide attempt with a witty one liner is SUPER loving weird. Like WHAT show? That ending scene with the rocket flying towards the council was absolutely laughable. The idea that a state* would succeed political power in an afternoon, lmao. The fact that the war is actually going to be incited because the evil mentally ill woman shot a rocket launcher at them, gross. *The show is going out of its way not to directly discuss the political structure of society. It's all ambiguous coding, and its designed so that Western audiences can read the city as capitalist and Chinese audiences can read it as state socialism. That said, in either read, the fundamental political conflict in the show is class exploitation inflicted through a border. The show ended up unwilling to show the council as the brutal bastards they would need to be to maintain this system of violent exploitation, instead casting them as clueless fools who somehow established this economy by accident? And all it takes is one stern conversation for them to be like "okay, I guess we'll end this decades long system of economic exploitation which is making us rich." Yikes.
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Nov 30, 2021 02:53
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My favourite part of each episode release is the series of concentrated bad takes in one post from Rob Filter.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:02
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the weird thing is that there's consistently some interesting points in there (I definitely hadn't noticed how often "evil" characters in league have some sort of disability until this thread brought it to my attention) but it's always couched in paragraphs of absolutely insane takes like "heimerdinger wasnt important to the plot"
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Nov 30, 2021 03:21
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Rob Filter posted:Someone quoted earlier in the thread a writer talking about how they had to fight multiple times in the writers room to keep some of the queer representation between Vi and Cait in, and that's telling. They fought over whether it was in character for Vi to immediately start hitting on Caitlyn - an Enforcer that she'd been baring teeth at and telling to go gently caress herself literally the previous night - and not over whether the two of them would fall in love. Their obvious, growing attraction for eachother is an important element of both of their characters that's established multiple times over multiple episodes in a consistent pattern within the text itself, and which has been confirmed repeatedly to have been an intentional creative choice by writers and artists involved with the project on social media.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:31
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Monicro posted:the weird thing is that there's consistently some interesting points in there (I definitely hadn't noticed how often "evil" characters in league have some sort of disability until this thread brought it to my attention) but it's always couched in paragraphs of absolutely insane takes like "heimerdinger wasnt important to the plot" I think in particular it's more a sign of how bad Zaun is that all the "bad guys" from Zaun are injured by living in the place. It's less these people are evil because they have a disability but more they have some injury from living in a toxic shithole and that their life situation drives them towards being a criminal or a violent revolutionary. Sylas and Viego are both "dark/villainous" characters who are intentionally very handsome though, and it works well to present their specific forms of darkness. Sylas is a populist revolutionary whose hatred has overwhelmed his good ideals, Viego is a "vampire" villain who is meant to be darkly attractive to hide what a monster he is on the inside.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:33
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SirSamVimes posted:My favourite part of each episode release is the series of concentrated bad takes in one post from Rob Filter. 
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Nov 30, 2021 03:33
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Like, I think almost every human Zaunite champion besides Vi has a pretty visible injury, and that's not really about them being villains as much as it is about Zaun being well, Zaun. It's not a place where you're going to have a healthy upbringing, it's not a place where you're going to have safe working conditions, just walking through Zaun can be fatal if you're on the wrong side of a chemical spill. Jinx I guess also doesn't have any physical injuries but well, she's still an example because well look at her.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:36
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Rob Filter posted:The idea that a state* would succeed political power in an afternoon, lmao. Were you trying to write 'secede' here? Because even that would be wrong. You cede power, you do not secede it. If you weren't trying to write secede I genuinely have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:42
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Personal_Nirvana posted:So Grace Randholp says she managed to contact some Fortiche people and, according to them, S2 is "very, very far away. 2024 at most". Grace Randolph sucks, but I honestly wouldn't mind a 2 to 3 year wait as I'm assuming that amount of time will contribute to another masterclass in animation and storytelling. That it took the first season ~6 years shows with how insane everything about the production quality was. I'm assuming out of my rear end that since Fortiche now have a library of curated assets to further Arcane's world building, cutting the production down time to roughly half for another batch of episodes makes sense to my small brain.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:50
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It's entirely reasonable for the Council to accede to Silco's demands, especially with the specter of a massive, bloody war facing them down. Even assuming the Council's populated entirely by soulless, profiteering monsters, voting for a bunch of decidedly moderate resolutions to buy yourself time to secure your own economic interests and build up the force needed to mount an effective response is a perfectly rational thing to do.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:I think in particular it's more a sign of how bad Zaun is that all the "bad guys" from Zaun are injured by living in the place. It's less these people are evil because they have a disability but more they have some injury from living in a toxic shithole and that their life situation drives them towards being a criminal or a violent revolutionary. Lord_Magmar posted:Like, I think almost every human Zaunite champion besides Vi has a pretty visible injury, and that's not really about them being villains as much as it is about Zaun being well, Zaun. It's not a place where you're going to have a healthy upbringing, it's not a place where you're going to have safe working conditions, just walking through Zaun can be fatal if you're on the wrong side of a chemical spill. Jinx I guess also doesn't have any physical injuries but well, she's still an example because well look at her. Ya it's definitely not a hard rule and I agree the show does a pretty good job of writing around it, but it made me think about champs like jhin and swain as well and either way it's definitely something worth thinking about. even then though as other people have said in this thread there are characters like lee sin (blind) and sona (mute) who are very explicitly good guys so yknow
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Nov 30, 2021 04:18
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Monicro posted:Ya it's definitely not a hard rule and I agree the show does a pretty good job of writing around it, but it made me think about champs like jhin and swain as well and either way it's definitely something worth thinking about. even then though as other people have said in this thread there are characters like lee sin (blind) and sona (mute) who are very explicitly good guys so yknow Jhin I'll give you, his disturbed mind is directly explained as why he's a serial killer, or at least why his kills are done the way they're done. But Swain was an rear end in a top hat before he lost his arm, in fact he lost his arm because he was trying to invade and conquer Ionia at the head of a massive imperial Noxian army. Swain also is a villain who believes what he's doing his necessary for the future of the world, so it's a bit more complex than just he's a big imperial monster.
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Nov 30, 2021 04:40
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Monicro posted:even then though as other people have said in this thread there are characters like lee sin (blind) and sona (mute) who are very explicitly good guys so yknow Rell and Riven are also characters unambiguously depicted as heroic who are both clearly and obviously struggling with deeply ingrained personal trauma in the fiction.
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Nov 30, 2021 04:45
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Random Integer posted:Were you trying to write 'secede' here? Because even that would be wrong. You cede power, you do not secede it. If you weren't trying to write secede I genuinely have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean. They mean that its kind of silly that the Council is willing to undo decades/centuries of economic oppression of the undercity on the basis of one impassioned speech. Which, if Arcane was a retelling of real history, would be correct. But its not, that scene is intended to be the climax of Mel's character arc with knock-on effects from Jayce and Jinx's arcs.
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Nov 30, 2021 04:54
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1stGear posted:They mean that its kind of silly that the Council is willing to undo decades/centuries of economic oppression of the undercity on the basis of one impassioned speech. Which, if Arcane was a retelling of real history, would be correct. But its not, that scene is intended to be the climax of Mel's character arc with knock-on effects from Jayce and Jinx's arcs. Again, it's not unbelievable that they either calculate the cost of a protracted guerilla war to be a far worse price to pay than settling with Silco and working to outmaneuver him later, or that they think they just need to buy time to consolidate their position and then move to crush him after. It's not a scene of celebratory triumph where everyone wipes a tear from their eyes, having come to understand the true value of working together Metropolis-style; the votes are being hesitantly cast, backdropped by a grim, red pall.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:00
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Lord_Magmar posted:Like, I think almost every human Zaunite champion besides Vi has a pretty visible injury, and that's not really about them being villains as much as it is about Zaun being well, Zaun. It's not a place where you're going to have a healthy upbringing, it's not a place where you're going to have safe working conditions, just walking through Zaun can be fatal if you're on the wrong side of a chemical spill. Jinx I guess also doesn't have any physical injuries but well, she's still an example because well look at her. There's Ekko too. And Janna I guess? Though they've apparently made her into some kind of deity now instead of being a zaunite orphan.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:02
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Lord_Magmar posted:Like, I think almost every human Zaunite champion besides Vi has a pretty visible injury, and that's not really about them being villains as much as it is about Zaun being well, Zaun. Eh, it is pretty noticeable that all the unambiguously good characters from Zaun have absolutely no facial scars or obvious disabilities (Vi, Ekko, Vander, even Sky) but all the evil / ambiguous characters (Silco, Sevika, Chembarons in general, Viktor, Singed, the junkie merchant) do. They're definitely using disabilities to signal "evil", although at the same time it's also true that these characters are scarred for plot and setting reasons and not just for aesthetics. if you look closely, Jayce actually has a little scar on his face that he gets early on, and Vi keeps rolling her injured shoulder, but that's not really comparable Personal_Nirvana posted:So Grace Randholp says she managed to contact some Fortiche people and, according to them, S2 is "very, very far away. 2024 at most". I understand that this level of quality takes time, but that would really suck, no-one is going to keep up the hype for 3+ years. If they're going to take so long between seasons, might as well drop tbe current plots and make season 2 about different things entirely. But I also think it won't take that long, from what I gather most of the "six years" was spent doing the groundwork in terms of story and design, and technical animation assets that now already exist, and actual production that you'd also need for S2 took like 2 years.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:04
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pidan posted:Eh, it is pretty noticeable that all the unambiguously good characters from Zaun have absolutely no facial scars or obvious disabilities (Vi, Ekko, Vander, even Sky) but all the evil / ambiguous characters (Silco, Sevika, Chembarons in general, Viktor, Singed, the junkie merchant) do. I don't think Viktor is especially ambiguous. The dude clearly wants the best for other people, is disgusted by Jayce even considering weaponizing hextech, and is motivated to continue dabbling with the Hexcore for the entirely understandable reason of not wanting to die. Sky's death is a clear and obvious accident, and he immediately stops using the Hexcore, tells Jayce to destroy it, and resigns himself to death after that. With how much everyone else's backstories and personalities have shifted or been developed, I'm not willing to put the cart of League lore as-is before the horse of season 2 to see where he ends up.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:13
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1stGear posted:They mean that its kind of silly that the Council is willing to undo decades/centuries of economic oppression of the undercity on the basis of one impassioned speech. Which, if Arcane was a retelling of real history, would be correct. But its not, that scene is intended to be the climax of Mel's character arc with knock-on effects from Jayce and Jinx's arcs. For what it's worth I also found it a bit silly that they're all willing to make peace about three minutes after they're shown flipping over chairs and yelling about the prospect. I get the dramtic timing, but imo it would have worked a bit better if they had shown only a small majority voting for peace (after all they only need to convince one person, Jayce and Mel and the dumb guy always vote together).
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Nov 30, 2021 05:15
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Again though the physical damage to their bodies I think is less about them being evil/morally ambiguous and more that because of how they grew up in Zaun they are evil/morally ambiguous and suffering long term health issues. Which I guess still kind of suffers from the evil people with disabilities issue. Vander does have an arm brace though, and it's treated as something in universe that keeps him from fighting as much as he used to.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:16
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Vermain posted:Again, it's not unbelievable that they either calculate the cost of a protracted guerilla war to be a far worse price to pay than settling with Silco and working to outmaneuver him later, or that they think they just need to buy time to consolidate their position and then move to crush him after. This isn't really the argument that either Jayce or Caitlyn present though. The focus is entirely on how Piltover has abused the undercity. A guerilla war is never even mentioned and we see very clearly what happens when Shimmer goes up against Hextech. You can argue that the Councillors were developing their own schemes and that might be accurate, but they aren't really developed well enough as characters to make a solid claim either way. The argument that the narrative makes for Zaun's independence is one based on moral grounds. I suspect that the one of the plots for Season 2 is going to be about Piltover's massive reprisal against the undercity for Jinx's actions and the terrible cost both cities will pay, a cost that gets them to realize that Zaun's independence is the only way either side survives.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:17
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1stGear posted:A guerilla war is never even mentioned and we see very clearly what happens when Shimmer goes up against Hextech. Jayce might make that claim, but anyone taking even a vague look at Zaun knows that a war with them would be a brutally protracted affair. The ease with which Vi parkours down the fissure versus Cait hesitantly tiptoeing her way across the beams and down the ladders is a pretty apt visual metaphor.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:19
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Vermain posted:Jayce might make that claim, but anyone taking even a vague look at Zaun knows that a war with them would be a brutally protracted affair. The ease with which Vi parkours down the fissure versus Cait hesitantly tiptoeing her way across the beams and down the ladders is a pretty apt visual metaphor. Oh sure. But I'm going to guess no one on the Council has ever seen a trencher parkouring.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:27
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Vermain posted:I don't think Viktor is especially ambiguous. The dude clearly wants the best for other people, is disgusted by Jayce even considering weaponizing hextech, and is motivated to continue dabbling with the Hexcore for the entirely understandable reason of not wanting to die. Sky's death is a clear and obvious accident, and he immediately stops using the Hexcore, tells Jayce to destroy it, and resigns himself to death after that. With how much everyone else's backstories and personalities have shifted or been developed, I'm not willing to put the cart of League lore as-is before the horse of season 2 to see where he ends up. I mean, it's nice that he's a pacifist, but in terms of a fantasy story he's clearly evil coded. Messing with powers man was not meant to knew is evil, being primarily motivated by overcoming your own mortality is evil, playing with the purple stuff is super evil in League, I don't make the rules. And in terms of film language, he's always alone, always cloaked in shadow, always has this intense look on his face - clearly evil. Also his main arc before act three is gaining sympathy for animal abuse. As I've posted above, I think they'll ultimately go the ambiguous / benevolent route from his current lore, but since the show left out his main "good" motivation it'll be a bit weird getting there.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:29
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Honestly I think it would have been a more effective tragedy if the vote for Zaun's independence, in addition to being more believable than a bunch of oligarchs UNANIMOUSLY voting to give up power, had resulted in a deadlocked vote that could have been broken by oh I don't know, Heimerdinger still being on the council. Woulda been more in keeping with the themes of understandable actions made with good intentions coming back to bite you in the rear end.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:45
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pidan posted:I mean, it's nice that he's a pacifist, but in terms of a fantasy story he's clearly evil coded. It doesn't particularly matter to me if someone is coded as evil if what he's doing is very clearly not evil. This show's already made it clear that it's fine messing with assumptions about visual language: two of the last three shots we get of the clean, blue, beautiful glow of hextech are Jayce using it to kill a kid in cold blood, and Jinx sending out a rocket that all but guarantees a bloody war. I do also have to take umbrage with the merchant in episode 6 being "ambiguous." He is heroic to a fault and is absolutely pivotal in saving Vi (and, consequently, Caitlyn as well). Him accepting Shimmer from Silco in return for information on their whereabouts is a fault of his disease and Silco's malfeasance, not his character. It's tragic, but it's not evil, or even morally ambiguous.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:48
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I think the fact that Zaun is a shithole that most normal humans can't survive in is intentional. The only completely human champions from Zaun are Vi, Jinx, Singed, and Ekko. Vi moved out of Zaun before she was fully grown, Jinx was still massively changed by Zaun mentally if not physically, and Singed is a major part of the reason that Zaun is such a shithole and has caused a bunch of the changes to other champions, meaning it's only Ekko (the guy who invents time travel) who can survive in Zaun fully as a human. Everyone else is either transformed in some way (Urgot, Orianna, Warwick) or was never human to begin with (Zac, Blitz, Twitch). I don't think it's directly related to good or evil, it's just how Zaun is designed. There are still an annoying amount of disabled or otherwise ugly evil champs, though Riot's sexifying of League is actually removing a lot of them.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:56
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Vermain posted:It doesn't particularly matter to me if someone is coded as evil if what he's doing is very clearly not evil. You have a pretty narrow definition of evil, if "risking the fate of your city to save your own life", "torturing cute animals" and "selling out kind people to a drug lord for drugs" don't qualify. I mean, by that standard no-one in Arcane is evil, everyone has some sort of motivation behind what they do that isn't just "I love evil".
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Nov 30, 2021 05:58
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Eh sure the council all agreeing to give Zaun liberty after one impassioned speech is kinda dumb. But Id already gotten Israel/Palestine vibes from Piltover/Zaun in that the council clearly don't give a poo poo about actually governing the undercity, theyre happy to palm that off on whatever useful local strongman is available, their only concerns are being able to impose their will whenever they feel like it and extracting whatever economic value they can. They can do that just fine through their geographic, economic, technological and military advantages regardless of whether or not they sign a piece of paper saying Zaun is independent. So I just pass it off as most of the council realising that and realising that it would actually free from them from even having to pretend to care about the undercity, so big whoop let them have a moral victory. An independent Zaun is still subject to Piltover. Which is why Jinx is right to blow the fuckers up.
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Nov 30, 2021 06:01
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pidan posted:You have a pretty narrow definition of evil, if "risking the fate of your city to save your own life", "torturing cute animals" and "selling out kind people to a drug lord for drugs" don't qualify. There's no indication beyond Heimerdinger's vague mumblings that the Hexcore is anything beyond individually dangerous, and I do not think that people suffering from addiction are being evil for giving into their addiction.
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Nov 30, 2021 06:09
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It would be cool to have good characters with badass scars.
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Nov 30, 2021 06:19
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Vermain posted:There's no indication beyond Heimerdinger's vague mumblings that the Hexcore is anything beyond individually dangerous, and I do not think that people suffering from addiction are being evil for giving into their addiction. I mean, Viktor lives in a world that unambiguously has had areas completely destroyed by meddling with purple magic, and he's a scholar so presumably he knows that. Heimer has been established as overcautious, but his warning about the Hexcore is pretty clear. Addiction is evil in fantasy, just ask the vampires. But in this case, addiction is not the problem, selling out friendlies is.
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Nov 30, 2021 06:25
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Vermain posted:Again, it's not unbelievable that they either calculate the cost of a protracted guerilla war to be a far worse price to pay than settling with Silco and working to outmaneuver him later, or that they think they just need to buy time to consolidate their position and then move to crush him after. It's not a scene of celebratory triumph where everyone wipes a tear from their eyes, having come to understand the true value of working together Metropolis-style; the votes are being hesitantly cast, backdropped by a grim, red pall. They're all also probably aware that nominal independence for the slums isn't going to change a drat thing. Okay, they no longer have to send enforcers down the pits, but now they get to use every incident against the rulers of Slumtopia. They still keep all their workers, because where else are they going to get the money they need to survive? Only now they don't even need to pretend to have any duty of care towards them. They get to keep all the good things about being born in their golden city and can now blame all the bad things on the Zaunites. "You said you wanted to control your own destinies, so here you go." Random Integer posted:Eh sure the council all agreeing to give Zaun liberty after one impassioned speech is kinda dumb. But Id already gotten Israel/Palestine vibes from Piltover/Zaun in that the council clearly don't give a poo poo about actually governing the undercity, theyre happy to palm that off on whatever useful local strongman is available, their only concerns are being able to impose their will whenever they feel like it and extracting whatever economic value they can. They can do that just fine through their geographic, economic, technological and military advantages regardless of whether or not they sign a piece of paper saying Zaun is independent. So I just pass it off as most of the council realising that and realising that it would actually free from them from even having to pretend to care about the undercity, so big whoop let them have a moral victory. An independent Zaun is still subject to Piltover. Which is why Jinx is right to blow the fuckers up. Yeah, you said it much better than I did. Free Zaun is a win for the oligarchs. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 06:48
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Monicro posted:the weird thing is that there's consistently some interesting points in there (I definitely hadn't noticed how often "evil" characters in league have some sort of disability until this thread brought it to my attention) but it's always couched in paragraphs of absolutely insane takes like "heimerdinger wasnt important to the plot" In the final episodes (every scene post "retirement") he became irrelevant to the central conflict, while still having a bunch of undramatic scenes with Ekko. I personally found him boring throughout the show, but he had dramatic stuff to do for the early and middle episodes. FWIW you might want to replace stuff like "insane" with instead, say: ridiculous, incompetent, clueless, nonsense. Ableist language and all that. Random Integer posted:Were you trying to write 'secede' here? Because even that would be wrong. You cede power, you do not secede it. If you weren't trying to write secede I genuinely have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean. Mistakes. Mistakes were made. Thank you for this correction, its genuinely very helpful!
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Nov 30, 2021 07:10
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Hellioning posted:I think the fact that Zaun is a shithole that most normal humans can't survive in is intentional. The only completely human champions from Zaun are Vi, Jinx, Singed, and Ekko. Vi moved out of Zaun before she was fully grown, Jinx was still massively changed by Zaun mentally if not physically, and Singed is a major part of the reason that Zaun is such a shithole and has caused a bunch of the changes to other champions, meaning it's only Ekko (the guy who invents time travel) who can survive in Zaun fully as a human. Everyone else is either transformed in some way (Urgot, Orianna, Warwick) or was never human to begin with (Zac, Blitz, Twitch). Singed is named that way traditionally because his skin is super hosed up from experiments with acids and toxins. His face is meant to be all scarred (and it gets even worse after a specific plot beat that might show up next season).
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Nov 30, 2021 07:55
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Lord_Magmar posted:Singed is named that way traditionally because his skin is super hosed up from experiments with acids and toxins. His face is meant to be all scarred (and it gets even worse after a specific plot beat that might show up next season). I kind of loved how every time we see Singed he gets a bit more hosed up, some things clearly went down off-screen.
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Nov 30, 2021 08:30
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