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Pakxos posted:That's good to know. For some reason I thought it wasn't out yet. It's only out on the Renegade site in PDF form.
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Nov 29, 2021 01:10
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so, this is something that I never found out a detailed explanation for, and I would love an elaboration about: how much of a leap one dot actually represents? I never studied storyteller mechanics because I had the great luck of playing with a couple of awesome storytellers who adhered to the golden rule first and foremost and saved us all the trouble of learning the system, so I never quite figured out how much more a dot added meant in any of the attributes. When reading fluff though, it seems inconsistent as not every dot is made equal (skills excepted?). Like, in my lay impression of it, a dot of strength for a werewolf is a lot more than a dot of strength for a vampire? Also, the progression seems to be rather different: vampires go off the rails (celerity excepted) with every dot past four, while a nWoD hunter for example would power-explode past five or six. Of course, this is all an impression that I have gathered from casual reading, not doing playtesting or anything rigorous of the sort The reason I ask is that I have trouble, for example, trying to imagine a character with willpower 8, which is somewhat more doable for player characters than other attributes. Unless dots for pools count differently? thanks in advance 
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Nov 29, 2021 22:31
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The various White Wolf-derived games, despite frequent presumptions to the contrary in their writing, don't differentiate well by individual dot ratings. A character with 2 Strength adds two dice to Strength rolls. A character with 3 Strength adds three dice to Strength rolls. This is, generally speaking, not a huge difference. How much of a difference it makes depends on the size of your dice pool. It makes much less of a difference if you're rolling a skill you have 4 dots in than if you're rolling a skill you have only 1 dot in. It also depends on the trait and system in question. Dexterity is more important in an oWoD game than in an nWoD game because oWoD calls for Dexterity for a bunch more things. Don't try to extrapolate what a character's personality or capability is like directly from what their numerical traits are. The traits are not that granular. The rolls are swingy enough that they fail to be reliably predictive to that extent. A character with Intelligence 4 will fare better than a character with Intelligence 2 in contributing to an investigation or research, but not so much better that it feels like comparing a well-established expert in her field to an average schlub with mild training, no matter what the books suggest about those dot ratings. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 22:55
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dead gay comedy forums posted:so, this is something that I never found out a detailed explanation for, and I would love an elaboration about : how much of a leap one dot actually represents? Probabilistically speaking? If we assume the odds of getting at least one success an extra die is worth an extra ~10% until you get to five dice[90% success], then the increase is minute until you get to ten die where there's a 99.xxxx% probability of getting one success. Practically speaking it means what ever the story teller tells you it means. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Nov 29, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 23:01
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In v20 and older having a 4+ at least gave you a specialty which opened you up to exploding 10s... or just more 1s.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:18
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My group mocked my Metis Ahroun hacker with a bunch of hacking merits up until I got fourteen successes on my first roll.
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Nov 30, 2021 00:30
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Kurieg posted:My group mocked my Metis Ahroun hacker with a bunch of hacking merits up until I got fourteen successes on my first roll. 
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Nov 30, 2021 03:30
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dead gay comedy forums posted:so, this is something that I never found out a detailed explanation for, and I would love an elaboration about : how much of a leap one dot actually represents? 1 dot in a stat represents all 'below average' or 'deficiencies' below 'average' human capability, whatever that means. Two dots in a stat is the 'average' range. Everything above that is 'notably above average' in some way. One dot in a skill is 'this could be a hobby'. Two dots in a skill is 'you can do this professionally in some way'. What this means is that on an average day a person does their job with a four-dice pool, has a 70% chance of success, if it's a tough day they spend a point of willpower on it to push up the chances and call it a 'rough day' when they get back home and sleep it off. Anything else is abstraction and extrapolation. But in theory a dot of Strength is a dot of Strength, regardless of what character type you are.
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Nov 30, 2021 03:48
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dead gay comedy forums posted:so, this is something that I never found out a detailed explanation for, and I would love an elaboration about : how much of a leap one dot actually represents? The basic problem is that all the various oWoD games were just not very well-designed, despite all the neat ideas that grabbed hold of the industry at the time. nWoD made the wise decision to abandon pegging a bunch of specific and sometimes silly metrics to every single dot rating of Attributes and Abilities (now Skills), providing a single table outlining generalities for the whole system, and CoD went further by just leaving it up to a simple paragraph to vaguely describe a 0-5 scale of human capability. But the legacy of oWoD still echoes in various bits of CoD today. Do we really need 1-5 dots of every Discipline? Probably not. Lost 2e got away with chucking the 1-5 powers scale and did a pretty good job. (Requiem 2e also does a pretty okay job in my estimation, but it was much more shackled to the games that came before it.) Like I said, though, it lingers. CoD still has spots where your successes on a Jump roll are divided or multiplied into exact distances covered, and you've got all these yard measurements in combat and Speed and blah blah blah, because at its heart it's still a very traditional old game. In summary, don't worry about it too much, especially when it comes to oWoD. Willpower is a 1-10 scale, and the game says most people hover around 3. Fair enough. If you really want more guidance than that, I guess you can look in Werewolf the Apocalypse where they actually gave you a table with population percentages per dot of Willpower in the Delirium section, but, uh, it's loving dumb as hell and likely won't help you grasp it any better. Willpower 5 is the peak of normal people and anyone with 6+ Willpower is remarkable and rare, but also according to these percentages 6-8 Willpower is almost a quarter of the population, and 5-8 is over a third. That's a lot of remarkable and rare people! Just follow the narrative, the WoD is full of sad-eyed, dead-eyed, glassy-eyed nobodies keeping their heads down as they're preyed and experimented upon. Don't worry about what exactly the books say too much, just grasp the tone they get across (or make it wrassle the one you want) and do your best to make the square rules fit that round hole. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 04:02
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Thanks, everybody! All of it really helped to contextualize for me. Starting today the MtAw corebook and becoming the next victim of magechat soon enough, haha
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Nov 30, 2021 04:29
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Thanks, everybody! All of it really helped to contextualize for me. Welcome to hell, we all love it here.
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Nov 30, 2021 04:33
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How does CofD handle difficulty? I could have sworn that there were explicit rules on reducing your dice pool based on the difficulty of the task, but I’m looking at my Mage rulebook (on page 213, in the “Rolling Dice” section) and the only modifiers I see are due to “equipment, circumstance, or someone working against your character”. Am I a victim of the rulebook’s abysmal index, or is every computer as easy to hack as every other?
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Nov 30, 2021 05:13
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blastron posted:How does CofD handle difficulty? I could have sworn that there were explicit rules on reducing your dice pool based on the difficulty of the task, but I’m looking at my Mage rulebook (on page 213, in the “Rolling Dice” section) and the only modifiers I see are due to “equipment, circumstance, or someone working against your character”. Am I a victim of the rulebook’s abysmal index, or is every computer as easy to hack as every other? That's pretty much it for general guidance on "difficulty." Unfavorable conditions can penalize your rolls, including largely normal but beefier obstacles like a computer network run by someone who obeys basic infosec. There is a lot more implied guidance to this in the full write-ups specific actions that get them, because you'll see stuff in the suggested modifiers for things like "opponent is faster than you (–2)" or whatever, but Mage is pretty light on those. The very brief guidelines for "circumstances and equipment" might be all you get stated outright.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:30
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Do the other splats (or even the core book) have more details? I’m slowly relearning all the rules in preparation for trying to convince my friends to play Mage and having something approaching cohesive guidelines for basic things like how hard something is would be great.
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Nov 30, 2021 05:40
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blastron posted:Do the other splats (or even the core book) have more details? I’m slowly relearning all the rules in preparation for trying to convince my friends to play Mage and having something approaching cohesive guidelines for basic things like how hard something is would be great. Lost 2e seemed to try to do a bit of cleanup and expansion on basic stuff, so there might be slightly more guidance there. But it's been a while and I probably just skimmed that part of the book anyway. The most top-level guidance you're likely to get is that stuff you already found under Rolling Dice, reproduced in every core book. Hopefully someone who isn't going to bed can come along and break down the probabilities to give you something a little more substantial to hang onto, if that would help. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 05:58
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Speaking of difficulty. From the ST perspective I'd like to pitch an npc thing. So far with my campaign I've been prescribing dice pools to npcs by how competent they'd be. I figured that since my players stats are around 5 dice on average, a 3 or 2 dot attribute with a 3 or 2 dot skill,, that generic vampire mooks should get five dice, and it scales up to big bad dudes having ten dice and human mooks having between 4 and 5 dice depending on competency. Does this seem like a good place to go? Think it should scale up or down? Is there a good rule of thumb for scaling an opposed encounter? For example, if a mook needs to shoot a PC. Dodge a PC, use a discipline etcetera he always rolls five dice. Edit: this is v5 if it matters
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Nov 30, 2021 06:04
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Defenestrategy posted:Speaking of difficulty. From the ST perspective I'd like to pitch an npc thing. So far with my campaign I've been prescribing dice pools to npcs by how competent they'd be. I figured that since my players stats are around 5 dice on average, a 3 or 2 dot attribute with a 3 or 2 dot skill,, that generic vampire mooks should get five dice, and it scales up to big bad dudes having ten dice and human mooks having between 4 and 5 dice depending on competency. Does this seem like a good place to go? Think it should scale up or down? Is there a good rule of thumb for scaling an opposed encounter? That's about where I start. And then I'd add 1-2 dice for specific areas of this is what this person does all day sort of aptitude. And then as the pools got larger, I'd just sort of bump up the numbers for supernatural types and mostly leave the humans near the same 4-5 dice spot. Best thing I've found is that when I roll dice for an NPC it needs to be meaning something. If it doesn't mean something important than I didn't need to roll for it and should have just decided something that makes the story better instead of rolling at all. Edit: This isn't from playing v5, but something I've used for a long time in STing. I'd imagine it will work fine for V5, but I have no systems knowledge for it.
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Nov 30, 2021 06:08
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Rip and Torrent. Until it is seeded.
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Nov 30, 2021 06:22
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The Free Council are second-rate anarchist dissidents. My god, I am agreeing with Ferrinus already I won't last a week
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Nov 30, 2021 06:26
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dead gay comedy forums posted:The Free Council are second-rate anarchist dissidents. My god, I am agreeing with Ferrinus already I won't last a week 
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Nov 30, 2021 06:42
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this doesn't preclude the existence of first-rate anarchist dissidents, but freecouncil.jpg definitely establishes them as second-rate anything
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Nov 30, 2021 07:12
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Do mages have to worry at all about other playable splat races or are they basically so potentially strong that a werewolf or vampire isn't gonna bug them much? I say playable because I imagine they probably run into trouble with antediluvians, fae, the god-machine, and the qashmallim, but a friend who ran and played old mage told me that mages were ridiculously powerful to the point that the other splats can't really stand up to them. Maybe a mummy at full strength?
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Nov 30, 2021 07:18
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Mister Olympus posted:this doesn't preclude the existence of first-rate anarchist dissidents, but freecouncil.jpg definitely establishes them as second-rate anything Mirror Universe Mage the Awakening where the Free Council are magitechbros, the Diamond Order are wizards constantly spawning shotguns everywhere they go, and the Seers are mankind's only hope to keep those dipshits from storming heaven and letting the Abyss pour over everything.
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Nov 30, 2021 07:18
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https://www.worldofdarkness.com/news/development-blog-defining-clans Interesting read from months ago that I just found, but basically delves into their methodology for basically dumpstering a lot of the metaplot in oWoD to make the game actually playable instead tangled up in bullshit like Revised/V20.
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Nov 30, 2021 14:20
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FirstAidKite posted:Do mages have to worry at all about other playable splat races or are they basically so potentially strong that a werewolf or vampire isn't gonna bug them much? oMages are all over the place depending on their Spheres, which can vary a lot based on purview, level, and ST permissiveness. A notionally powerful mage without time to prepare can pretty readily be smeared across the floor by a tough low-level vampire or virtually any werewolf. Vampires also have a few pretty potent social/mind control effects, though mages have at minimum pretty good Willpower. In very, very general terms though, if a mage gets the time and dice pool to do it, they can just decide what happens to other supernaturals with little chance of resistance. In nMage (2e) everyone's on a much more level playing field, things are much more standardized, but again a mage with the right levels of Arcana can largely just decide what happens to other people without caring too much what they think. They can also still get splatooned at the drop of a hat by modestly beefy vamps and woofs if they're not ready for it, but characters in CoD are neither as wonkily strong nor fundamentally as fragile as in oWoD. Generally, for both games, your basic combat staples can vary but stuck roughly in the same ballpark, but where everyone else climbs the power ladder to, like, improve their hypnotic sexiness or whatever, a powerful mage can just decide to turn people into a tasteful topiary sculpture or banish their mind to an eternal dream prison. Again, this is very general and white room-y. Most mages, especially in Awakening 2e, have very big toolboxes, but they're not sinking cities or summoning balrogs (yet).
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Nov 30, 2021 14:58
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Defenestrategy posted:Speaking of difficulty. From the ST perspective I'd like to pitch an npc thing. So far with my campaign I've been prescribing dice pools to npcs by how competent they'd be. I figured that since my players stats are around 5 dice on average, a 3 or 2 dot attribute with a 3 or 2 dot skill,, that generic vampire mooks should get five dice, and it scales up to big bad dudes having ten dice and human mooks having between 4 and 5 dice depending on competency. Does this seem like a good place to go? Think it should scale up or down? Is there a good rule of thumb for scaling an opposed encounter? Always keep in mind with V5 dice pools that you need two successes for even a Straightforward task and small dice pools don't carry you very far at all in the engine, unless you're liberal with Willpower spending. You're on the right track, though. You need a lot of dice to be good at something.
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Nov 30, 2021 14:59
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That Old Tree posted:Generally, for both games, your basic combat staples can vary but stuck roughly in the same ballpark, but where everyone else climbs the power ladder to, like, improve their hypnotic sexiness or whatever, a powerful mage can just decide to turn people into a tasteful topiary sculpture or banish their mind to an eternal dream prison. Again, this is very general and white room-y. Most mages, especially in Awakening 2e, have very big toolboxes, but they're not sinking cities or summoning balrogs (yet). Summoning a balrog (equivalent) is actually really easy as a Mage, so long as you don't care about having any control over it or the horrifying collateral that is going to happen. Summoning something really horrible is always just a paradox away!
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Nov 30, 2021 15:11
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That Old Tree posted:characters in CoD are neither as wonkily strong nor fundamentally as fragile as in oWoD. Jeeze it's been a long time since I looked at owod on purpose, how fragile are those characters? COD characters all feel like glass cannons that got brittle bone disease after their emotional state was permanently shattered by a friend being lukewarm on a movie recommendation.
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Nov 30, 2021 15:11
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Fellow WoD nerds, I need your thoughts. So I'm running a V5 embrace campaign that's going well so far and is gearing up for it's third session. Last session I had a big dramatic moment where the neonate met the Prince, who then gave a big speech about his new reign over SF and then declared a Bloodhunt on any Sabbat found in the city. My notes for the next session have the player and a couple NPC's she hangs out with exploring an abandoned building for other reasons when they find an abandoned Sabbat haven that's been wrecked by a fight. They also find a big rear end Sabbat ankh spray painted on the wall and a slip of paper with a bit of Nod prophecy written on it. I'm 50/50 on if the Sabbat are actually making a return to the city (in my plot there was a major Sabbat v Cam war in early 00's in the area) to cause trouble, or if this is all an elaborate scheme by the Prince (who has been in power in game for all of about a month as of the last session) to shake up the city and cement his reign as prince because he was there to stop a new invasion by the Sabbat. I feel like both options have dramatic potential, but I'm kinda leaning more towards the "New Prince's scheme" angle of this whole thing, because as I said he took power about a month prior to the game starting because the previous prince Sara Ann (I could not find a straight answer on who was supposed to be the loving prince of SF online, it was either Vannevar or Sara Ann, so I settled on Sara) just disappeared without a trace, which is a plot thread that hasn't been pulled on just yet (50/50 she's dead/she got Beckoning'ed).
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Nov 30, 2021 16:32
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Doing both, maybe? Big play by the prince at first, but then actual sabbat raids surprise the hell out of him and now the players are in a position to work the situation.
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Nov 30, 2021 16:39
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Tulip posted:Jeeze it's been a long time since I looked at owod on purpose, how fragile are those characters? COD characters all feel like glass cannons that got brittle bone disease after their emotional state was permanently shattered by a friend being lukewarm on a movie recommendation. Bizarrely, one of the game design principles oWod stuck to better than almost anything else is that virtually everyone's got seven health levels full stop (and for a ton of them, that seventh level barely counts since you're completely useless and vulnerable at that point). Damage versus soak is also not very favorable to the victim. It's pretty easy to start rolling 10 or more damage dice, versus a paltry handful of soak dice that you may not even get to roll depending on damage type versus creature type. Then of course it's only a few health levels lost and you're already taking fairly substantial dice penalties, making it even harder to avoid further damage. It's remarkably easy to one-shot nearly anyone in oWoD, though things like werewolves can often get back up after. There are lots of tricks to muck around with this, but the relative weakness of soak and relentlessly small hit point pool makes oWoD turn quickly into rocket tag.
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Nov 30, 2021 16:45
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joylessdivision posted:Fellow WoD nerds, I need your thoughts. You're not thinking convoluted enough. The Anarchs are stirring up poo poo, because Anarchs, so they're planting fake evidence of a Sabbat presence to force the Prince to spend time and treasure, then make him look bad when, surprise, there's no actual threat. The Prince is fully aware of this plot, but is using it for his own ends; gathering more power to himself, beefing up his own security, and so on. Meanwhile, a Sabbat scout actually has entered the city, and is busily looking for the local Sabbat that they keep seeing evidence of. The actual Sabbat that still infest the city, however, have spent the last two decades licking their wounds and biding their time. They're aware of this new Sabbat, and intend to throw him to the wolves by exposing him to the Prince, with evidence that he's a lone scout that showed up last week. A member of the Prince's court, who is a Sabbat asset, will suggest that the scout be broken through torture, blood bond, domination, whatever, and sent packing with a report that the city is too secure to move on at this time. They then intend to wait for the Prince to publicly proclaim what a great job he did keeping the Sabbat out, then strike a series of targets, undermining the Prince's credibility and support. Meanwhile, poor Bobby, a down-and-out, unpresented caitiff wastrel, happens to look uncannily like this Sabbat scout, and is in the wrong place at the wrong time when the 'scout' is snatched. But Bobby has a weird kind of friendship with a local group of Bone Gnawers, because Bobby was a social worker before he was embraced, and he still does what he can to protect the homeless and the street people from his people. And when he turns up missing, they go looking. And don't even get me started on the Toreador primogen who has held a grudge against the Prince for the longest time, ever since said prince, just a young whelp at the time, made a sneering comment about her latest attempt at a gallery showing however long ago. Or, you know, just fall back on the tried and true 'the third thing the players think is going on, is what's going on.'
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Nov 30, 2021 16:58
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That Old Tree posted:There are lots of tricks to muck around with this, but the relative weakness of soak and relentlessly small hit point pool makes oWoD turn quickly into rocket tag. Frankly, this is one of the big strengths of the system. You are really incentized to solve problems with out combat, as it is risky as hell. Not that I have not played in plenty of bloody WoD games, but the fact that unless you are a Werewolf or a vampire getting shot with a gun is a huge deal.
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Nov 30, 2021 17:39
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TheCenturion posted:You're not thinking convoluted enough. The Toredor Primogen hating the Prince actually makes 100% sense with those two characters as I have them written out, and I think she might be the longest reigning member of the council, so she especially isn't happy about Prince Ventrue Dickbag taking over after the last Ventrue prince pulled a Copperfield. I like a lot of what you've suggested, and I definitely will be copying it over to my notebook for ideas, although I kinda already had the Scourge execute a captured "Sabbat" member at Elysium last session lol. I want to see how the player reacts to finding the haven, and what her plan of action will be regarding this Sabbat plotline, because I feel like it works a good "Big Picture" plot line of what's happening in the background and gives me a ready source of dramatic moments to shake things up, but my player has also expressed that she really enjoys the more intimate nature of exploring the world as fresh vampire whose still learning the ropes of what it means to be a Kindred (session one was her embrace/first night, coming into session 3 we're looking at just barely a month undead) Also love the Bone Gnawers idea, I had the prince address the "Rumor of Lupines" running around in Golden Gate Park in the last session as "Eh, leave the furballs alone, we don't need open warfare with them" as a way to basically quickly establish that yes, Werewolves are a thing, but not really a focus of the plot currently.
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Nov 30, 2021 17:40
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joylessdivision posted:I like a lot of what you've suggested, and I definitely will be copying it over to my notebook for ideas, although I kinda already had the Scourge execute a captured "Sabbat" member at Elysium last session lol. Meanwhile Scratches His Balls the Gnawer Philodox and Shits Too Often the Gnawer Ragabash are standing around outside the liquor store with a box full of sandwiches and water bottles, wondering where Bobby is for their weekly check in of a local homeless camp. [/quote]
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Nov 30, 2021 18:31
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Frankly, this is one of the big strengths of the system. You are really incentized to solve problems with out combat, as it is risky as hell. Not that I have not played in plenty of bloody WoD games, but the fact that unless you are a Werewolf or a vampire getting shot with a gun is a huge deal. Sure, and for the time it is pretty surprising and fresh, but 30 years later (oh my loving god) there are ways and ways of doing the same thing much better. I would say this particular approach reached its nadir in Exalted. Despite the "combat is actually really dangerous, yo" messaging, you're still buying a game book half-full of rules and suggestions on how to fling bullets and fireballs at implacable killers.
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Nov 30, 2021 18:45
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Obligatum VII posted:Summoning a balrog (equivalent) is actually really easy as a Mage, so long as you don't care about having any control over it or the horrifying collateral that is going to happen. Summoning something really horrible is always just a paradox away! That was my Sisterhood of the Blessed Mastigos' answer to a surprising number of things. Only backfired when he yanked a Demon-God-King of Charity from the Astral and neglected to think of the difference between charity and philanthropy.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:04
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The only thing that can reliably kill a death raging nwoof is a demon going loud or another werewolf willing to head on down to Big Luna's all you can eat harmony sin buffet.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:04
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That Old Tree posted:Just follow the narrative, the WoD is full of sad-eyed, dead-eyed, glassy-eyed nobodies keeping their heads down as they're preyed and experimented upon. Don't worry about what exactly the books say too much, just grasp the tone they get across (or make it wrassle the one you want) and do your best to make the square rules fit that round hole.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:07
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That Old Tree posted:Sure, and for the time it is pretty surprising and fresh, but 30 years later (oh my loving god) there are ways and ways of doing the same thing much better. I would say this particular approach reached its nadir in Exalted. Despite the "combat is actually really dangerous, yo" messaging, you're still buying a game book half-full of rules and suggestions on how to fling bullets and fireballs at implacable killers. Exalted is definitely a game I used to love that I can't even pretend like I might play. I was definitely hype about getting the crew back together and trying 3rd edition, but once I saw the core book being 700 pages I knew it was an impossible dream. I backed Exalted Essence edition and honestly it feels both too complicated still and also bland in comparison to the "real" game. A truly awful combo. One of my main WoD games I actually played a fair amount of was Hunter the Reckoning. Every combat was an unmitigated disaster without fail.
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Dec 1, 2021 02:53
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