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i think he just wants to do weird interesting depressing stuff with it. ao was whatever but the anemone movie was good. its not like the original eureka seven is affected in any way by this supplementary material existing.
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Nov 30, 2021 08:27
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Dai Sato why do you hate e7 so much as for the guy who actually wrote the third eureka seven hi-evo movie and was involved in ao, tomoki kyoda, his work on rahxephon definitely shows an interest on weird, hard to parse meta concepts, and eureka seven is far and away the thing he's been involved on with the most cultural cache. so it is imo reasonably that to parley that into the weird artsy poo poo you want to make since its the only way you can get anything greenlit. i also think most of the frustration with eureka seven that's noticeable in the later material can basically be boiled down to that. and again, its not like any of this affects eureka seven in any way whatsoever. Endorph fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 08:33
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Endorph posted:the only eureka seven thing dai sato's had any involvement in since the original tv series is the first hi-evolution movie. not the second or third. this is a touch like asking why yoshiyuki tomino did such a bad job on gundam age. I avoided the hi-evo movies because the original films and AO were both comically bad but I was under the impression that the return of Dai Sato was supposed to be some selling point, so eh. quote:as for the guy who actually wrote the third eureka seven hi-evo movie and was involved in ao, tomoki kyoda, his work on rahxephon definitely shows an interest on weird, hard to parse meta concepts, and eureka seven is far and away the thing he's been involved on with the most cultural cache. so it is imo reasonably that to parley that into the weird artsy poo poo you want to make since its the only way you can get anything greenlit. i also think most of the frustration with eureka seven that's noticeable in the later material can basically be boiled down to that. and again, its not like any of this affects eureka seven in any way whatsoever. It directly affects it because now every time I tell people about E7 I have to give them a fuckin MSDS packets worth of warnings about what _not_ to watch, which makes people apprehensive. We are at the point where there is markedly more bad eureka seven material than good, which does in fact have a knock-on effect on the reputation of the original series.
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Nov 30, 2021 08:46
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Can't you just tell them "The original series is way good but the other stuff is not". It doesn't seem that complicated.
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Nov 30, 2021 11:31
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Blockhouse posted:Not even metaphorically but like textually every Eureka Seven thing directly tries to destroy everything about the first series to the point where the Hi-Evolution movies finally accomplished it by revealing every series, manga, game, and movie in the franchise was just the delusions of Eureka using a magic box after she accidentally murdered Renton Jesus, and I thought AO was bad enough. That's horrible, I'm glad I didn't bother with the movies. The only real Eureka Seven things are the original series and whatever SRW they appear in.
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Nov 30, 2021 13:13
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It's the Highlander of mecha
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Nov 30, 2021 16:39
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah there's "the protagonist gets more boring" or "they ruined the ending" and then there's E7, where the franchise's director stares you right in the face and goes "That thing you liked? It's dogshit" over and over for the past decade plus. It's like they've decided to always attempt to subvert the original Eureka Seven series by making a meta commentary about fan expectations instead of going for a more vanilla kind of sequel or spin-off, but that's a big risk and they sure didn't pull it off. Yet somehow the people with the power to make decisions about the property continue to follow that same approach.
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Nov 30, 2021 17:17
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Endorph posted:i think he just wants to do weird interesting depressing stuff with it. ao was whatever but the anemone movie was good. its not like the original eureka seven is affected in any way by this supplementary material existing. I read that the second movie reveals that every piece of E7 media, including the TV series, are worlds that Eureka made up over guilt for killing Renton. Doesn't that actually affect the original? Actually, how well did the first two movies even do?
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Nov 30, 2021 18:08
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if you meet a retcon on the road, kill it.
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Nov 30, 2021 18:19
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i didn't see E7 until last year so the reaction to sequel material has tended to strike me as hyperbolic. like i have no problem believing it's some level of bad (shows generally, and mecha more specifically, often are when left to balloon like that) but the original only struck me as a stylish take on stuff i had already seen in the Gundams, Evas, etc that E7 was transparent about referencing. ultimately just makes me interested in it i suppose, like are people most betrayed by this stuff coming at it from an "E7 was my first" angle or what.
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Nov 30, 2021 18:33
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Can't you just tell them "The original series is way good but the other stuff is not". It doesn't seem that complicated.
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Nov 30, 2021 18:39
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Willo567 posted:I read that the second movie reveals that every piece of E7 media, including the TV series, are worlds that Eureka made up over guilt for killing Renton. Doesn't that actually affect the original? i think the answer here is "only if you care about that movie"
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Nov 30, 2021 18:50
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Blaze Dragon posted:Jesus, and I thought AO was bad enough. That's horrible, I'm glad I didn't bother with the movies. The only real Eureka Seven things are the original series and whatever SRW they appear in. You say that, but even Super Robot Wars seems to have taken the tact of "watch the original series, give everything else a pass". E7 has only been in three games, the first series was in Z1 where it was a central plot series where the Nirvash was an incredibly good unit and the other LFOs were reliable support units that you would be happy to field. Meanwhile, on the other hand, we had Pocketful of Rainbows which was in Z2 and was not plot important and had units that kind of sucked across the board... Meanwhile, despite making a point of Z3 being about parallel worlds converging and deliberately choosing sequels to series from Z1 and Z2 to be in the game (or running a series in 3.1 and including its sequel in 3.2), AO was conspicuously absent despite the fact that it actually might have made thematic sense for it to appear considering all the stuff that was happening in Z3. Without going way too far on a tangent, you can sometimes tell which shows Banpresto were really interested in using and which they were more lukewarm about, and all signs point to Pocketful of Rainbows being something they were not thrilled by and put very little effort into using. dogsicle posted:i didn't see E7 until last year so the reaction to sequel material has tended to strike me as hyperbolic. like i have no problem believing it's some level of bad (shows generally, and mecha more specifically, often are when left to balloon like that) but the original only struck me as a stylish take on stuff i had already seen in the Gundams, Evas, etc that E7 was transparent about referencing. I mean, considering fans and fandom you are roughly justified in this tact, but I will point out this isn't like Nadesico which had a tonal shift people didn't like (and also the movie wasn't very good) or the aforementioned VOTOMs which had significant diminishing returns. Both those things are true (the sequels had weird tonal shifts and aren't as good as the original), but the sequels also seem to weirdly, nakedly hate themselves, the originals, and the franchise such as it exists. And that actually is unique even among things with bad sequels. Prince of Darkness made a mess of Nadesico by maxing out on the edginess in a way that wasn't great, but I can actually watch it and get the sense that somebody thought it was a good idea and had some plan for it. Same with the VOTOMs sequels, they aren't good but somebody wanted to make them. I can go to other weird bad sequels as well, over the realm of Gundam Frozen Teardrop remains a point of fascination due to its absurdity and thoroughly bizarre priorities, but it's still clearly somebody's baby. I have not seen many sequels that viciously hate their own franchise quite as much as Eureka 7. It's not just that the sequels are bad or disappointing, it's that they are very strangely hostile to themselves. And it isn't even like Evangelion either where the Rebuild films will purposefully go out of their way to take shots at the franchise's fans and their assumptions and their desires to try and make a point or use that as a jumping off board to further the characters or concepts of the films. As far as I can tell the primary reason the follow-ups to Eureka 7 attached the franchises to make the point that it is bad and you are a bad person for liking them. It's honestly kind of baffling. So yeah, if you're in the marketplace for a not very good watch that is weirdly confusing and possibly purposefully self-destructive I would say check them out. If you're in the neighborhood for some trainwreck viewing go ahead. Omnicrom fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 4, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 19:12
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Omnicrom posted:And it isn't even like Evangelion either where the Rebuild films will purposefully go out of their way to take shots at the franchise's fans and their assumptions and their desires to try and make a point or use that as a jumping off board to further the characters or concepts of the films. I never really thought the Rebuild movies were meant to be some "gently caress you" to fans - the closest you could come to that is 3.0, and that was more because Anno was going through severe depression at the time of making it. Also, outside of 3.0, the first two and last movie felt pretty optimistic and hopeful. Willo567 fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 19:23
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Also, reading this interview from Kyoda make him seem like kind of an rear endquote:OTAQUEST: Were you left dissatisfied? quote:OTAQUEST: Then regarding the start of your theatrical trilogy from 2017, Hi-Evolution, as director what did you want to express the most? quote:OTAQUEST: So in each Eureka, you’ve been putting your “current” feelings to the screen, then. https://www.otaquest.com/tomoki-kyoda-interview/ Willo567 fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 19:28
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Omnicrom posted:I mean, considering fans and fandom you are roughly justified in this tact, but I will point out this isn't like Nadesico which had a tonal shift people didn't like (and also the movie was very good) It wasn't even that much of a tonal shift. Nadesico TV had jokes but it got dark as gently caress.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:41
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Nadesico also tended to play ideas straight for a while, before lampooning them, so my feeling with Prince of Darkness is that they wanted to set up a grim and dark situation in the first film before things started to slide back towards a more familiar tone as the cast got their poo poo together throughout the story during sequels.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:46
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Prince of Darkness also feels disconected from the series because there was a plot critical Dreamcast game that very few people got to play in between them that covered things like Yukari and Akito getting kidnapped and Ruri commanding the Nadesico B.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:08
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Yeah, there was a Saturn game set before the Nadesico movie and a Dreamcast game set after those events. I have to wonder how well those types of "media mix" approaches usually work out, because at least in the case of Nadesico they didn't.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:06
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Willo567 posted:Also, reading this interview from Kyoda make him seem like kind of an rear end major alpha energy
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Nov 30, 2021 21:07
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tsob posted:Nadesico also tended to play ideas straight for a while, before lampooning them, so my feeling with Prince of Darkness is that they wanted to set up a grim and dark situation in the first film before things started to slide back towards a more familiar tone as the cast got their poo poo together throughout the story during sequels. Yeah, I strongly believe that if Nadesico had gotten the additional two movies it was apparently slated for it probably would've lightened up and moved back towards the broader tone and themes of the series, so more's the pity it didn't. wielder posted:Yeah, there was a Saturn game set before the Nadesico movie and a Dreamcast game set after those events. My experience is that when they work, they work because individual works in one media can stand on their own without necessarily needing the broader context. In other words mixed-media stories are at their best where the mixing of media results in bonus context for the capacity for broader understanding of the story or the setting or the concepts without necessarily leaving behind people who didn't do the research to be lost. Or in still other words, make sure you are telling good stories on their own before you start trying to do fancy cross media stories. Omnicrom fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Dec 1, 2021 |
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Dec 1, 2021 03:50
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Willo567 posted:I never really thought the Rebuild movies were meant to be some "gently caress you" to fans - the closest you could come to that is 3.0, and that was more because Anno was going through severe depression at the time of making it. I think most of the fan rage about 3.0 was just that people were expecting it to be a remake of the TV series with a bigger budget like the previous 2 films and more or a direct sequel to them. Luckily the production team realized that would have been boring and instead took it in a new direction that was just too radical for some people.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:00
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Omnicrom posted:My experience is that when they work, they work because individual works in one media can stand on their own without necessarily needing the broader context. In other words mixed-media stories are at their best where the mixing of media results in bonus context for the capacity for broader understanding of the story or the setting or the concepts without necessarily leaving behind people who didn't do the research to be lost. Or in still other words, make sure you are telling good stories on their own before you start trying to do fancy cross media stories. Yeah, you get things like Gundam where you can watch a good anime, then pick up a good manga, and even play a halfway decent old shooter, and they may reference each other, but each story mostly can stand on its own. For another example, Nier has absolutely batshit interlinked media, but if you just play the games by themselves, you get enough to know what's going on. Sure, A2's arc is more dramatic with the whole play, but you get a summary from Anemone's terminal and that covers the basics. The problem with a lot of these is that they try to make it so you have to do everything to get the "real" story, and that means most people will kinda bail, because if one part is dull, why should they expect more from the rest? Speaking of boring, Kyoukai Senki is going to IBO's playbook. Unfortunately, it flipped to the pages labeled "Evil brother?!?" In theory, it presents a compelling plot. It's about a special administrative zone for the Japanese in the Chinese controlled region of Japan. Now, this is kind of fuzzy with the description of how all this works a couple episodes back. In theory, all Japanese people would need to do to have one of these running would be to buy up the land and buildings in a small town and they'd be free and clear, since the idea is that, on paper, this is 'just' foreign troops 'assisting' the Japanese rather than a takeover, but this show doesn't think too much, so we can keep on well enough. The problem is that the show immediately starts undermining the accomplishment as soon as it becomes a possible moral dilemma, not only establishing that the never-before-mentioned brother got his town by spying for the Chinese (possibly compelling drama!) but that it's kind of crappy, while the heroes built a nice little town from scratch just last episode (Drama undermined!). It doesn't feel like an interesting dilemma, but just a hastily sketched motive for a villain of the week in a second episode with no mech action.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:04
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If I want to check out patlabor, am I good just watching the movies and oav? I saw there's a TV series but not sure how it fits into the movies and if I have the time for a large series. I saw one of the movies as a kid and liked it, but not sure which one it was.
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Dec 1, 2021 18:14
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the OVA (Early Days) and movies are in the same continuity, TV is separate it's probably most common when intentionally getting in to go OVA, then movies in order, and TV after if you want more.
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Dec 1, 2021 18:20
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Nice, thanks for the info. This was one of those things I caught back in the day (Sci fi Saturday anime maybe?) along with tank police.
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Dec 1, 2021 18:24
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I say watch in order released. Ova, movie 1, tv, the movie 2. For the true labor head experience
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Dec 2, 2021 01:08
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If you know you'll be in it for the long haul, I liked watching the first movie about halfway through the TV series and then watching the second movie after the TV series and The New Files OVA. It doesn't really matter when you watch the first movie, but (minor spoilers) it was neat to be without Kanuka for a while and then she gets this big reintroduction. Though it's kinda awkward placement after Kumagami enters the story. As for the second movie, continuity aside, it's very much a finale to the franchise. Edit: I love the TV series and what it does with all the characters and all the different stories it tells with its setting. It is very episodic though so if it's a time thing and you're not feeling an episode, chances are you can skip it without missing too much. Iserlohn fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 01:15
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anything that keeps you away from movie 2 is a decent idea 
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Dec 2, 2021 01:16
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Some real Patlabor movie 3 erasure going on in this thread.
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Dec 2, 2021 01:37
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I'm normally a completionist and can find value in most things. Patlabor 3 has such a bad rap that I want nothing to do with it. Minipato can stay though.
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Dec 2, 2021 02:33
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patlabor 3 is mostly kind of pointless.
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Dec 2, 2021 04:49
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:patlabor 3 is mostly kind of pointless. yeah it's...fine. It just has nothing to do with Patlabor outside of like two characters showing up at the end Definitely lacks the "what if we put the cast of Police Academy in a Tom Clancy thriller" vibe of the second movie.
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Dec 2, 2021 05:02
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:patlabor 3 is mostly kind of pointless. Yeah, it's not terrible, but the protagonists are dull, which stands out all the more with how strongly sketched the regular Patlabor cast is. The animation looks good, the city shots aren't Oshii level but they're decent, and the bits with the regulars are on the money, but the film as a whole lacks both the comedy and the action that Patlabor normally does so well.
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Dec 2, 2021 05:03
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making it a patlabor film removes any teeth it might have had. it is two cops investigating a giant monster, and oh no! regular cops can't do anything about giant monsters. but oh right it is patlabor so you can just call in the police mecha unit to handle that sort of thing. problem solved!
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Dec 2, 2021 05:08
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:making it a patlabor film removes any teeth it might have had. it is two cops investigating a giant monster, and oh no! regular cops can't do anything about giant monsters. but oh right it is patlabor so you can just call in the police mecha unit to handle that sort of thing. problem solved! I mean, "Oh crap, giant monsters" is the plot for half a dozen Patlabor episodes already, so it's not like it's off tone in that regard. Speaking of movies, was looking up mech anime with theatrical releases this year. In reverse release order: Eureka Seven looks like a flop, artistically and financially Fafner is basically episodes of the show put together, so it's harder to judge. Macross Delta made less in Japan than Gundam Narrative or Promare No-one seems to know how the G-reco movies are doing, but they made a third one, and are going to make two more. Probably cover their costs. Hathaway blew the doors off, making more than any Gundam film since the original trilogy. Sidonia data is unavailable in Japan, but it doesn't seem to have made much And Eva... well, massive hit is an understatement, at least by non Ghibli, non Demon Slayer, non Shinkai anime standards. 10 billion. Geeze. So, yeah. Big year for mecha, but it seems the start was better than the finish, at least in theaters. We'll see for TV.
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Dec 2, 2021 13:34
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chiasaur11 posted:No-one seems to know how the G-reco movies are doing, but they made a third one, and are going to make two more. Tomino cannot be stopped (for good or ill).
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Dec 2, 2021 17:13
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Do the G reco movies add much new animation?
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Dec 2, 2021 19:20
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Hey this isn't the gundam thread, oops
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Dec 2, 2021 19:20
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chiasaur11 posted:Speaking of boring, Kyoukai Senki is going to IBO's playbook. Unfortunately, it flipped to the pages labeled "Evil brother?!?" Having now watched the episode, my sense from last episode was that the show was aiming for a message about the value of hard work and the importance of national spirit. I.e., we're mean to understand brother guy was wrong from the start because he's making his city with outside help. He's wrong not merely because the military of evil China are cartoonishly evil in a very boring and tiresome way, but because he's calling in favors from the outside to do something that should be done by the Japanese. Meanwhile, last episode said it was good and right to make that town because that little settlement was being made by Japanese people for the Japanese and so totally different even besides evil China not being involved. That would also tie into episode 2 with cool farmer dude being portrayed as a good guy, and the one good episode with the Americans where the American lead shows he's also a good guy by talking about how colonizing Japan is bad (which, in context, may be less because colonization in itself is bad [it is] and more that Japan being rebuilt by someone else is bad because otherwise it loses it's Japaneseness unless it pulls itself by its bootstraps.) Of course it doesn't work because it's too easy. Of course things are going to be kind of bad when the city exists with the help of evil China because the show has already established evil China is just evil for the sake of being evil. No alliance with them could ever result in anything good because they are axiomatically evil. If the show had any guts or any brains they might've actually showed that yes, the evil Japanese city ACTUALLY WAS as good as it appeared, that people were getting what they needed and were happy and had supplies and it wasn't a rundown place because of evil China. Do that and suddenly there actually is a dilemma to this moral dilemma. Last episode, working on their own, the crew at Yatagarasu made a little tiny country town for like 10 or 20 people, this episode brother man built an autonomous city for over THREE THOUSAND people by throwing in with the Chinese. Who has done more to advance the cause of Japan's rebuilding? You went to IBO, which is totally fair, but I was actually thinking more season one Code Geass. A good number of the middle episodes of that show were about sacrifices for the cause. A running theme was that actions have consequences, intended or otherwise, and do the ends justify the means? You could have easily ran with the same themes here, have brother guy ask what Yatagarasu has managed to do in the three years since he's been gone. He built a city for their people, what have you all done? Has going around as a guerrilla force, as a bunch of wanted terrorists and fugitives improved the plight of the Japanese? You think I sold out? Hell no, I'm doing the right thing for our people. Grow up and pay attention to the big picture, you can talk about being heroic rebels fighting to save the Japanese spirit but at the end of the day that isn't going to put a roof over anyone's head or food on anyone's table. Maybe then you use that as a springboard in the next couple of episodes for an appeal either to idealism (say people need more than a nice house and groceries to "live") or more relevantly realism (you can say "autonomous" all you want, you still have no real power to do self-governance and your vaunted autonomy can be that can be yanked away the moment it's inconvenient for evil China). But nah, this is Kyoukai Senki in the show so far has erred on the side of "makes it easy!"
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Dec 4, 2021 23:48
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