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Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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| Black Beauty |
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2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
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4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
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117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
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11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
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54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
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LionArcher posted:If the government treated this half as seriously as they treated the BLM protests, it would be done. The problem is that given the chance, cops would happily treat this as seriously as the BLM protests, but only to certain kinds of people (I'll let you guess which kinds) Also, realistically speaking, it would take a lot longer than 2 months. I don't know exactly what percentage of the population you can lock down, but it's certainly nowhere near 100%, and when you're not in an environment where you're trying to stamp out a few cases, you're inevitably going to have spread even when you're "fully locked down" (through healthcare workers, the food supply chain, those police who are going to be busting skulls (miraculously in an unbiased way somehow), and tons of other sectors of an economy which are genuinely essential, particularly when the lockdown needs to be more than a month. You could absolutely lower cases, but getting to 0 is a pipe dream in the US and a lot of other countries for multiple reasons IMO, even assuming you didn't have parts of government actively working in COVID's interests. enki42 fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 20:37
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enki42 posted:The problem is that given the chance, cops would happily treat this as seriously as the BLM protests, but only to certain kinds of people (I'll let you guess which kinds) This happened with black people being under increased lockdown policing despite parks in the same city permissively full of white people. Lots of reporting at this point into year 2. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/06/covid-violations-people-of-color-punished-more-harshly
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Nov 30, 2021 20:46
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LionArcher posted:We could beat this thing in two months. Always could. Please explain, in detail, how this actually works. Explain how you keep food production going. Explain how people continue to eat and where they get their food from. Explain how you enforce the rules and where you get the manpower at the individual level. Explain how you enforce the rules when a whole county or state decides it's not interested in following your rules. Explain how you get medical care to those who need it while maintaining the pipeline for medical goods that will expire within that 2 month window. Explain how you continue a fuel supply line. Explain how you deal with the fact that every other nation wouldn't be doing this and that you'd still have people bringing in the infection by traveling elsewhere after the fact. Come on, I've seen you post this several times, clearly you've thought over all these issues and more, so let's hear it.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:52
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LionArcher posted:We could beat this thing in two months. Always could. But it would require measures all the broke brain libs and conservatives would bitch and moan about. They wouldn’t really do anything though, because most people are cowards. First, describe how you are going to get red counties to actively enforce anything or give a gently caress. Without, in turn creating other problems (like, say, armed uprisings or turning the military against citizens) that would make it even harder to pursue national public health initiatives like pandemic containment. Goons love to focus on national politics because the answers are catchy and sound easy and obvious (beep boop two months easy, stop bitching, libs!), but all actual covid response is local. BLM protests were pretty easy for the feds to quash because they were small, localized, and mostly contained within big cities. Oh, and racist media organizations weren't sympathetic, that too. Compare the optics of "scary minorities busting up targets" to the optics of "Good Red-blooded Real 'Muricans just peacefully going about their lives without that dang gubmint telling them what to do." Compare a military operation in like a dozen cities to a military operation in thousands of tiny loving Chudvilles spread out over tens of thousands of square miles that look just like every other Chudville, including the ones those soldiers are from, waged against people who aren't obviously and actively doing things that look bad. (Yes, they're doing things that are actually way worse and killing infinitely more people! But to show that, you have to involve boring numbers and charts and science, you can't just film, like, a ransacked big box store.)
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Nov 30, 2021 20:59
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Solkanar512 posted:Please explain, in detail, how this actually works. Lockdowns and quarantines don't mean you stop farming. Did China stop farming. Are you trolling, it's hard to believe you're really this stupid.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:59
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I think a thing to consider is the China strategy definitely works in terms of rapid localized extreme lockdowns and travel stoppages when the disease is still regional, but it's a different beast when it's widely spread across the entire country simultaneously. As far as I know not even China had to try that kind of strategy everywhere at once at the same time, so supplying a locked down region is a bit easier when you have the rest of the country to do it with. It's also depressing to think about when you look at Taiwan, which also managed to nip things in the bud except for a short alpha variant spike earlier this year through use of certain NPIs and really really good contact tracing and quarantine measures to the point that they never really, to my understanding, needed a lockdown. Man that sure would have been nice to have here.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:05
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dwarf74 posted:Focus on federal measures is absolutely useless for the United States right now. States have coercive apparatuses for a reason. If a state disobeys the order of the Federal government it should be declared in rebellion and brought to heel by force of arms.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:06
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Vasukhani posted:States have coercive apparatuses for a reason. If a state disobeys the order of the Federal government it should be declared in rebellion and brought to heel by force of arms. Historically speaking, countries with active civil wars do much worse at containing epidemics, not better.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:08
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Rosalind posted:Historically speaking, countries with active civil wars do much worse at containing epidemics, not better. I am pretty sure the airforce could make a good demonstration of florida in under an hour. It would help with the pandemic and help reestablish Republican Virtue
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Nov 30, 2021 21:11
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VitalSigns posted:Lockdowns and quarantines don't mean you stop farming. Food production as it relates to something like this isn't just toiling away in the fields, it's packaging and distribution and all that fun stuff that happens to take place in environments amenable to spread. To my mind it isn't like a 2 month nobody goes anywhere lockdown, it's a 2 week one followed with mass testing and snap lockdown campaigns. If you're in a place that is totally overtaken by JIT logistics, yeah still a problem. Also, dial it back a bit there
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Nov 30, 2021 21:15
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dwarf74 posted:Focus on federal measures is absolutely useless for the United States right now. I get this sentiment but you either do what's "hard" and make Dipshit FREEDUMB morons angry, or you let a pandemic spin wildly out of control and kill a million+ Americans because "what if the Right doesn't like it!". This could have been contained in February-March of 2020 if people had just done what the CDC reccomended and not loving listened to dipshit anti-maskers, and crushed this moronic anti-intellectual movement in its crib with extreme prejudice (it did not help that the power that be at the time was the biggest dipshit anti-intellectual of them all). Instead we both sided loving Anti Vaxxers and Horse pill treatments: what an absolute poo poo-show of a failed state we live in. Quite frankly, the US initial and ongoing response to COVID should be an absolute humiliation for us to the rest of the world, and we should be shamed internationally and sanctioned until we loving do something to fix our loving growing Plaguelands, because stupid fucks can't be assed to get a needle in their arm or even wear a piece of cloth. I live in Michigan: the loving lockdown worked. The COVID rates were tiny. Now we OPENED ER UPPP!!!! Because a minority of dipshit bunker dwellers told us we had to (and threatened to kidnap and murder our Governor: There is absolutely NO reasoning with these fuckwads) and we are 1 in 10 cases in the US right now and growing, the schools might as well be considered Red Zones, and our ICUs are failing all over. I'm sick of hearing "BUT THAT WOULD BE REALLY HARD AND UNPOPULAR TO DOOOO COME ON": gently caress politics, gently caress elections, gently caress leaders who are cowards. loving do something. TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 21:19
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Vasukhani posted:I am pretty sure the airforce could make a good demonstration of florida in under an hour. It would help with the pandemic and help reestablish Republican Virtue Even in your insane hypothetical, who do you think flies the jets? You think the chud pilots of the most insanely religious conservative branch of the armed forces is going to just say "yes, sir" and level the Florida governor's mansion? Get a grip.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:21
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Professor Beetus posted:Even in your insane hypothetical, who do you think flies the jets? You think the chud pilots of the most insanely religious conservative branch of the armed forces is going to just say "yes, sir" and level the Florida governor's mansion? Get a grip. The US doesn't have authority over its coercive apparatus? drat, it's already end stage then.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:23
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The "coercive apparatus" typically refers to withholding federal funding for various things, not carpet bombing states.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:28
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TulliusCicero posted:...This could have been contained in February-March of 2020 if people had just done what the CDC reccomended... I don't think this is true. As we now know a lot more than what we knew then, and the recommendations to individuals have evolved along with.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:32
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TulliusCicero posted:I get this sentiment but you either do what's "hard" and make Dipshit FREEDUMB morons angry, or you let a pandemic spin wildly out of control and kill a million+ Americans because "what if the Right doesn't like it!". This could have been contained in February-March of 2020 if people had just done what the CDC reccomended and not loving listened to dipshit anti-maskers, and crushed this moronic anti-intellectual movement in its crib with extreme prejudice (it did not help that the power that be at the time was the biggest dipshit anti-intellectual of them all). Instead we both sided loving Anti Vaxxers and Horse pill treatments: what an absolute poo poo-show of a failed state we live in Covid money is federal, but covid response and enforcement are all local.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:41
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blaming the "people" for policy failure is anti- political
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Nov 30, 2021 21:42
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Professor Beetus posted:The "coercive apparatus" typically refers to withholding federal funding for various things, not carpet bombing states. Considering who you're discussing it with, they probably are meaning literal carpet bombing.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:54
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A million plus dead Americans and many more maimed is not reflective of any kind of policy failure. It's actually reflective of the Trump and Biden admins political brilliance at reading the American people's complete inability to do anything helpful.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:58
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Okan170 posted:Considering who you're discussing it with, they probably are meaning literal carpet bombing. Carpet bombing might actually be a step up from vivisection tbh.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:01
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Rather than saying "the federal government hosed this up big time" for the zillionth time, it might be helpful to start identifying specific failures we made along the way and how they could be resolved in the future. Off the top of my head, the biggest failures from my perspective as an epidemiologist have been: - Failure to contain COVID prior to community transmission through enforced quarantine measures for international travelers - Extremely bad initial models used to inform decision-making that made absolutely undefendable assumptions (IHME, namely) - Failure to establish clearly what criteria would be used for lockdowns/reopenings, stick to those criteria when possible, or adjust and discuss those adjustments publicly - Just generally there was a failure to rely on what was actually some surprisingly good early data instead of calendar dates for decisions (e.g. "We will open up by May 1st!") - Failure to establish a single authoritative government resource for information on the pandemic (why the gently caress nearly 2 years later can I not go to like "covid.gov" and get a bunch of info from the CDC and FDA? Why do they have separate, confusing websites? Why does old guidance sometimes show up more easily than current guidance? It's infuriating.) - Failure to aggressively regulate social media sites to prevent misinformation - Poor messaging from federal health agencies in nearly every context whether it was with health care providers, the public, or state/local agencies, the federal government hosed it up This is ignoring everything upstream like the US not having a rational health care system or trying to do something about the population being largely scientifically illiterate. The Trump administration also probably exacerbated many of these problems, but didn't create most of them by themselves. Rosalind fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 22:09
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Rosalind posted:Rather than saying "the federal government hosed this up big time" for the zillionth time, it might be helpful to start identifying specific failures we made along the way and how they could be resolved in the future. This is a very productive post. Some of the mod team have discussed whether or not we should have a "what should have been done about Covid" thread, but imo it's certainly the kind of discussion that fits this thread. I would be interested in smarter people than me discussing the actual details of how badly we hosed up on Covid rather than just wailing and gnashing teeth about it.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:15
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Rosalind posted:- Failure to aggressively regulate social media sites to prevent misinformation Is this not the very violation of freedom which you have argued is why we cannot justify lockdowns? It's the first amendment... So we can trash it because people on twitter say things we might not agree with, but we absolutely under any circumstances cannot think about harming the fourth amendment or similar to keep people from traveling, etc. during a pandemic?
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Nov 30, 2021 22:19
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Professor Beetus posted:This is a very productive post. Some of the mod team have discussed whether or not we should have a "what should have been done about Covid" thread, but imo it's certainly the kind of discussion that fits this thread. I would be interested in smarter people than me discussing the actual details of how badly we hosed up on Covid rather than just wailing and gnashing teeth about it. Maybe form a committee?
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Nov 30, 2021 22:21
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The CDC behaving like a politically focused organization rather than a science based one reverberates through the entire pandemic and should really cause more outrage. Why can't we expect our "science-based" disease control organization to actually deliver and study hypothetical plans for disease control for the public and experts to consider?
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Nov 30, 2021 22:22
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Biden has absolutely taken a soft touch because he knows everyone who carries a gun for a living in this country is itching for an excuse to turn on him.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:25
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Rosalind posted:- Failure to establish a single authoritative government resource for information on the pandemic (why the gently caress nearly 2 years later can I not go to like "covid.gov" and get a bunch of info from the CDC and FDA? Why do they have separate, confusing websites? Why does old guidance sometimes show up more easily than current guidance? It's infuriating.) We should ask Joe Biden, he promised things like that in his campaign: https://joebiden.com/beat-covid19/ quote:Ensure evidence-based guidance for each phase of reopening and an easy-to-read Nationwide Pandemic Dashboard that Americans can check in real-time to help them gauge whether local transmission is actively occurring in their zip codes. This information is critical to helping all individuals, but especially older Americans and others at high risk, understand what level of precaution to take. There's a lot of great stuff in those promises, like hiring 100k contact tracers. Almost none of it has happened.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:28
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mod sassinator posted:Is this not the very violation of freedom which you have argued is why we cannot justify lockdowns? It's the first amendment... So we can trash it because people on twitter say things we might not agree with, but we absolutely under any circumstances cannot think about harming the fourth amendment or similar to keep people from traveling, etc. during a pandemic? I have never argued against lockdowns writ large from any "violation of freedom" angle. I had some concerns back in February and March 2020 about how China implemented their lockdowns and in retrospect my feelings about those lockdowns are still pretty ambivalent. The goal of public health is always to implement the most effective, least invasive intervention possible and I stand by that. As for the first amendment discussion, I am not a constitutional scholar but my understanding is that the government at the very least has some ability to regulate algorithms that drive viewers to certain content and that the government could punish social media companies that fail to combat COVID misinformation similarly to how they could punish companies that fail to protect against other issues such as human trafficking.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:33
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Elea posted:The CDC behaving like a politically focused organization rather than a science based one reverberates through the entire pandemic and should really cause more outrage. Why can't we expect our "science-based" disease control organization to actually deliver and study hypothetical plans for disease control for the public and experts to consider? Every single one of my friends who worked for the CDC found new positions after 2016. This is anecdotal but I believe that Trump caused a significant amount of brain drain at the CDC and the people who were left were largely politically-oriented yes-people.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:36
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Epic High Five posted:To my mind it isn't like a 2 month nobody goes anywhere lockdown, it's a 2 week one followed with mass testing and snap lockdown campaigns. Basically yeah. Lockdown doesn't mean no one goes anywhere ever and starves to death. When China put guards on apartment buildings those guards left their homes (to go guard somewhere), the food delivery people getting food to quarantined residents left their homes. You don't need a completely hermetically sealed society with zero spread ever, you just need each infected person to spread it to less than one person on average, then every day brings fewer cases than the day before and you use testing and contact tracing to narrow down quarantines to networks of infected people that can be locked down. Sorry for the aggro, it's just the same argument we've been hearing from chuds since day 1 ("oh I can't go to the hairdresser but I can go to the grocery store? So liberals think they magically can't get covid at Whole Foods?" "oh vaccinated people can spread well then vaccines are useless, take that Fauci") except the neolib version of that: if you can't shut down everything because we'll all starve then no point in shutting down anything. It's just massively disingenuous and after 18 months I'm tired of it. The world isn't black and white and all or nothing. Especially not statistical processes like disease spread that are aggregate results of millions of individual events and not a single Pandemic On/Pandemic Off switch. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 22:39
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Rosalind posted:
I agree. The government can easily regulate the thoughts of its citizens via the media environment. This should be a priority going forward.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:41
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Vasukhani posted:I agree. The government can easily regulate the thoughts of its citizens via the media environment. This should be a priority going forward. The government is allowed to negotiate with private companies over this stuff, and currently does so. Just not for stuff that would help society. It's mostly about imprisoning poc.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:43
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One thing that Joe Biden could have done via executive order, but hasn't, is requiring proof of vaccination for flights. That alone would have made an enormous difference in my opinion.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:43
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Rosalind posted:As for the first amendment discussion, I am not a constitutional scholar but my understanding is that the government at the very least has some ability to regulate algorithms that drive viewers to certain content and that the government could punish social media companies that fail to combat COVID misinformation similarly to how they could punish companies that fail to protect against other issues such as human trafficking. Twitter owns the servers, they own the code on them, they pay for the bandwidth, they pay for the employees that write the code. The US government has no jurisdiction at all. Twitter's not a public place like a street corner. How do you define COVID misinformation? In March 2020 Fauci and the CDC were saying not to buy or even wear masks. I, and many other folks, were saying in this thread "make masks; wear masks" (and I have probations to prove it). Was I giving misinformation? If so how is that rationalized with the fact that months later Fauci admitted it was a lie and the CDC guidance changed to require masks? Was it right that lives were lost because people didn't wear masks in those early days and got infected? Was I wrong for trying to help people stay safe and ultimately save lives, even if it wasn't the "correct" message? How do you rationalize is it better that the message is "correct" vs. that actual lives are saved?
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Nov 30, 2021 22:44
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Vasukhani posted:I agree. The government can easily regulate the thoughts of its citizens via the media environment. This should be a priority going forward. You're right. This power belongs to Zuck alone who is doing this right now with absolutely no oversight or accountability.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:45
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Rosalind posted:Every single one of my friends who worked for the CDC found new positions after 2016. This is anecdotal but I believe that Trump caused a significant amount of brain drain at the CDC and the people who were left were largely politically-oriented yes-people. One of my friends finished her PhD in medical sociology in 2018 or so and declined to join the CDC due to the indefinite hiring freeze and also the demoralization of her contacts there. Her masters work with the CDC was on how to improve compliance with CDC and other medical professional recommendations regarding a deadly and contagious respiratory illness. 
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Nov 30, 2021 22:49
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Rosalind posted:You're right. This power belongs to Zuck alone who is doing this right now with absolutely no oversight or accountability. What? It could be done well by the Republic, and would be a good way of ensuring obedience to the General Will of the people. Of course, there is always room for demonstrative coercion.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:50
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If you look at the data from the summer of 2020, Massachusetts was doing a decent job of getting the numbers down after the initial curve. Under a fairly strict voluntary lockdown, the numbers were looking pretty low and things started to look good. Then the second the numbers looked half decent, Gov. Baker just said immediately certain businesses could reopen, didn't even use like a two week buffer to help him out and that is the type of poo poo leadership we're experiencing right now. Pick a course and go, no going back to what was working or flexibility in decision making and its maddening.
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Nov 30, 2021 22:50
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Vasukhani posted:Yeah, with environmental safety, PPE is always the LAST measure. Somehow we've taken that to mean "its okay to spit in each others mouths if you wear a mask on your way to the mouth spitting convention"  Vaccines are like “eat your Wheaties with milk to build strong bones”. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hierarchy/default.html
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Nov 30, 2021 22:51
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mod sassinator posted:Twitter owns the servers, they own the code on them, they pay for the bandwidth, they pay for the employees that write the code. The US government has no jurisdiction at all. Twitter's not a public place like a street corner. Just because a company pays their own bills doesn't mean that that company is completely exempt from US laws and regulations. Just 3 years ago, FOSTA-SESTA became law which cracked down significantly on platforms that may have been hosting human trafficking (and hurt a lot of innocent sex workers in the process). quote:How do you define COVID misinformation? In March 2020 Fauci and the CDC were saying not to buy or even wear masks. I, and many other folks, were saying in this thread "make masks; wear masks" (and I have probations to prove it). I don't know. I'm not a legal expert. I just know that misinformation has been one of the biggest issues of this pandemic and that regulatory frameworks have been proposed on how to fight it specifically around feed algorithms. How do you propose we fight misinformation?
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Nov 30, 2021 22:57
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