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Gumball Gumption posted:I mean, do either of you have a tactic that you think would work? Yeah and I've given it 3-4 times at this point. quote:You both often drop just how racist and brainwashed the right is and discourage anything people suggest as possible tactics to combat that ideologically but I never understand where that actually leaves you. The right are brainwashed racist fascists so...? No, I don't, and you're confusing me with Trazz and judging by the fact that you asked the question above that I've answered multiple times, you're not really reading my posts, and instead responding to what you want me to say.
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Dec 3, 2021 00:36
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Jaxyon posted:You can't talk about the real meaning. That's why dogwhistles are used. The fragile white people don't want to hear it. I don't think this analogy holds up, because unlike school bussing, nobody is actually in favor of teaching CRT.
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Dec 3, 2021 00:47
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School bussing is terrible in reality because it means the most disadvantaged kids are spending 2 hours on the bus twice a day anyway edit: to go to a racist white school whose good outcomes won't apply to someone who isn't rich and white and a legacy at wherever anyway! Wang Commander fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 00:54
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't think this analogy holds up, because unlike school bussing, nobody is actually in favor of teaching CRT. Nobody was in favor of kids getting in traffic accidents, which is what anti-bussing advocates said they were concerned about. Cause you can't outright say "no black kids in my white school" and you can't call them out on it because they're just "concerned about child safety". Both sides knew it was about racism. If there's a better analogy I'm open to it. Point is that conceding to their framing is a really bad idea that somehow keeps getting brought up in this thread by people who are ostensibly leftists. Speaking as a leftist, it's a really really stupid idea. Wang Commander posted:School bussing is terrible in reality because it means the most disadvantaged kids are spending 2 hours on the bus twice a day anyway Yes it does suck, but the people mad about bussing weren't mad because it wasn't kind enough to disadvantaged kids, they were mad because it brought in disadantaged kids to their white haven. Use the other analogy if you want, or don't use any analogy. Just don't adopt white supremacist framings of culture war concepts. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 00:55
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Jaxyon posted:Nobody was in favor of kids getting in traffic accidents, which is what anti-bussing advocates said they were concerned about. Cause you can't outright say "no black kids in my white school" and you can't call them out on it because they're just "concerned about child safety". I don't see it as conceding to their framing, but as calling their bluff. Say you're not going to teach CRT, and when they say that you are, make them prove it. Put the onus on them to show what they think CRT is. I don't think this is a particularly good idea, of course, but I also don't think that it's falling for white supremacist dog whistles as you put it.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:08
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The most surprising thing to me is that people think that paid leave, free college, and childcare are "distractions from fixing the economy." Oh look, another poll that proves how stupid American voters are and how they make every decision based on vague gut feelings rather than any kind of reality. Joy.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:13
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't see it as conceding to their framing, but as calling their bluff. Say you're not going to teach CRT, and when they say that you are, make them prove it. Put the onus on them to show what they think CRT is. What bluff? They never thought that a graduate level analysis lens was being taught. They're going to just show you some example somewhere of a teacher who said a true thing and say it's CRT. Or lie. They knew what this was. You're not going to use debate tactics to get out of this. By even thinking you can "call this bluff" you're falling for the framing.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:17
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't see it as conceding to their framing, but as calling their bluff. Say you're not going to teach CRT, and when they say that you are, make them prove it. Put the onus on them to show what they think CRT is. I just say "That's not true; are you repeating misinformation out of ignorance or are you lying to me on purpose?" Just repeat that. There is no "bluff," just cut them down with Hanlon's Razor and move on to the next one. This isn't Texas Hold'em, this is Dynasty Warriors.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:24
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It's fake news all over again. It's just a meme. So in light of that, Trazz has it correct.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:24
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Harold Fjord posted:It's fake news all over again. It's just a meme. So in light of that, Trazz has it correct. Not really. Saying "no your wrong" isn't' an effective strategy for a politician, because they already know they're right and have proof(which isn't proof because they literally believe fake news). The strategy is to say "we're not letting republicans write our curriculum" which attacks your opponents, doesn't throw PoC under the bus, and then you talk about the good things you're doing. Problem with TMac was he didn't have anything like that. He didn't' have anything good to point to, and didn't even try. And then he got suckered into giving exactly the response to that would piss off both the racists AND the parents mad about having kids at home.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:36
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Sanguinia posted:Oh look, another poll that proves how stupid American voters are and how they make every decision based on vague gut feelings rather than any kind of reality. Joy. Yeah, look at those "vague gut feelings" in the Gallup survey about not being able to afford food & housing. drat idiots; they don't know how good they might have it in a few years with Dems' means-tested-to-hell social programs. They just need to be educated more! https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1466199403518210051
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Dec 3, 2021 01:41
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Harold Fjord posted:It's fake news all over again. It's just a meme. So in light of that, Trazz has it correct. Sure you can call it misinformation and that's fine. It is. But that won't necessarily convince people because of what they feel. If you challenge people (and I don't mean white supremacists/bigots, they should be challenged openly) they often shut down or return to what originally anchored them. You can't argue with what they feel. They still feel it even if their feeling is based on bullshit. You can validate it without accepting the premise. You can do this with the truth but it has to be in a way that appeals, comforts, validates and, above all, is simple and pithy to appeal to their lizard brains. Then work to appeal to their better nature and make good policy. Explaining everything that comes out of the RW sphere or social media is a waste of time and energy. It also doesn't work very well on people who aren't already on the know/on your side. This is very much done on purpose.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:47
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Willa Rogers posted:They just need to be educated more! "I got a 10% increase in pay, but it started so low that it's still not a livable wage even with that" Gee I have no idea why people aren't happy with the economy despite statistical increases
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Dec 3, 2021 01:48
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Cranappleberry posted:If you challenge people (and I don't mean white supremacists/bigots, they should be challenged openly) they often shut down or return to what originally anchored them. Cranappleberry posted:Explaining everything that comes out of the RW sphere or social media is a waste of time and energy. It also doesn't work very well on people who aren't already on the know/on your side. This is very much done on purpose. Cranappleberry posted:You can't argue with what they feel. They still feel it even if their feeling is based on bullshit. You can validate it without accepting the premise. You can do this with the truth but it has to be in a way that appeals, comforts, validates and, above all, is simple and pithy to appeal to their lizard brains.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:03
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Cranappleberry posted:Sure you can call it misinformation and that's fine. It is. But that won't necessarily convince people because of what they feel. Sorry I mean "fake news" as in the right wing shibboleth twisted out of an accurate description of their own media consumption. As with that, they heard some words they liked the sound of for their own purposes and memed it out. CRT is any education about our country's racist history because what they want is children to stop learning about racism. Anyway I think Trazz is right for personal behavior even if that's not the best way to get elected.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:22
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Inflation and the associated wage increases are also exceedingly choppy with clear winners (those who get raises higher than local inflation) and losers (those who get raises lower than local inflation, or no raises at all). Normally you'd be able to step in with governmental support to smooth things out for those on the losing end of things, but uh
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Dec 3, 2021 02:22
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Cranappleberry posted:
If someone is the type of person to swallow GOP's insane lies about CRT, they have no better nature to appeal to. That's just who they are.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:52
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Hey anyone heard from ben Carson lately? Did anyone wake him up during the inauguration or is he asleep somewhere in HUD
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Dec 3, 2021 03:09
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HonorableTB posted:Hey anyone heard from ben Carson lately? Did anyone wake him up during the inauguration or is he asleep somewhere in HUD He's probably still taking a nap somewhere in HUD, and the career staffers don't feel like going through the hassle of waking him up and explaining everything that happened over the last year. Plus, if you wake Ben Carson up, he might stab you.
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Dec 3, 2021 03:20
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Per some quick googling, he appears to be working the speaking circuit with a dash of cable news commentary. And apparently defending himself against new suggestions that a story in his book (about his honesty, natch) was an exaggeration or fabrication.
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Dec 3, 2021 03:29
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HonorableTB posted:Hey anyone heard from ben Carson lately? Did anyone wake him up during the inauguration or is he asleep somewhere in HUD https://wset.com/lifestyle/living-in-the-heart-of-virginia/dr-ben-carson-visits-valor-farm quote:Dr. Ben Carson and his wife Candy visited Valor Farm on #VeteransDay to join hands with fellow #Americans paying tribute to the great men and women who #defend our #freedoms
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Dec 3, 2021 03:29
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-Blackadder- posted:It's not about being non-committal, we should commit to improving things people care about and solving problems that are important to them and point to ways we've done that, and how we'll continue to do that. But don't expect them to know actual policy beyond anything general. There's two issues here: the first as usual is messaging, Democrats will always let Republicans set the tone of the conversation(because the obvious rebuttals are ones that would upset the only people who actually matter to either party: donors) and tend to be vague and cagey themselves about what bills contain. Spending months chopping them up and giving up leverage for nothing doesn't help, either. The second is that "better" does not mean "good enough". People are going to look at how their lives are going and for the most part life still loving sucks for almost everyone. The Democratic Party is currently running under an extremely toxic mindset where they feel they are owed votes and adulation simply for being 5% better than Republicans, but this strategy has seen sharply diminishing returns for a decade or so now and is reaching it's absolute limit. There needs to be a change of strategy to avert complete catastrophe(which they show every sign of being in complete denial of). Which yes, is going to involve actually offering something substantial beyond platitudes and not actively sabotaging anyone else who does. Dems fight against this idea with more fervor than they have ever fought for anything in decades, because it's another sign that the gravy train is coming to an end. All this framing of voters as uneducated rubes does is shift responsibility from politicians to the people they ostensibly serve. It may not be meant this way, but it very much comes off as chastising the common rabble for being insufficiently grateful for the table scraps they're given.
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Dec 3, 2021 03:31
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Yinlock posted:There's two issues here: the first as usual is messaging, Democrats will always let Republicans set the tone of the conversation(because the obvious rebuttals are ones that would upset the only people who actually matter to either party: donors) and tend to be vague and cagey themselves about what bills contain. Spending months chopping them up and giving up leverage for nothing doesn't help, either. To be fair, the two scenarios of: - Most voters being "uneducated rubes" - Our dysfunctional political institutions and inadequacy of the solutions offered by both major parties are failing society are two things that can very much exist simultaneously. Both of which actually strengthen the impact of the other.
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Dec 3, 2021 03:44
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I kind of feel like with inflation, as with many other issues, the problem is not inflation per se but the Dems' and affiliated commentators' instantaneous sprinting away from their own policies and conceding all points to their critics. Like it doesn't actually matter if they're 5% better than Republicans or whatever, if they immediately abandon everything that makes them even that much better then it's no longer relevant?
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Dec 3, 2021 03:47
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icantfindaname posted:I kind of feel like with inflation, as with many other issues, the problem is not inflation per se but the Dems' and affiliated commentators' instantaneous sprinting away from their own policies and conceding all points to their critics. Like it doesn't actually matter if they're 5% better than Republicans or whatever, if they immediately abandon everything that makes them even that much better then it's no longer relevant? The problem with inflation (in the current moment) is that it is uneven and happened very rapidly in a 6-month period. The current inflation issue is largely supply-side and not driven by monetary policy, so you can't do the normal things on the interest rate side to bring down inflation. A 2-3% inflation rate across all sectors over a year is not noticeable to the average person, but benefits debtors and people on the lower end of the income scale by making their debts relatively lower in value and pushing wages up. It's the difference between sitting your entire body in a 101-degree hot tub (very nice!) and putting a 101-degree coal down your pants (not nice!) That causes a political problem because you can't do anything to immediately resolve it and trying to abate it with looser fiscal policy risks adding monetary inflation on top of the current supply-side inflation. But, "wait a year and hopefully the pandemic will be over and the supply chain can meet aggregate demand" is not a convincing political slogan.
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Dec 3, 2021 03:55
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I think you have to decompose inflation into different sectors, with different political implications for them. For pandemic related delays like computer and cars and poo poo, that should largely affect everyone equally rich or poor. Nothing you can do about it through policy either. For wage inflation and labor shortage, this is going to come at the expense of the (right-leaning) small-business-owning petty bourgeois, and benefit low wage workers. Here you should lean into it, take the side of the workers, and not accept the small business owner framing For housing inflation, this hurts low wage workers the most of anyone, but also probably benefits liberal-leaning upper middle classes more than average. Here you should build more housing and probably deregulate zoning What the Democrats are doing in response to inflation, as far as I can see, is basically accept the small business owner framing of working class wage inflation as bad, presumably leading to them embracing austerity again in the short time left they will have in office, and do nothing whatsoever to deal with housing inflation. Basically committing political suicidie
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Dec 3, 2021 04:06
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I think. Businesses are trying to recover from Covid lag and also trying to gently caress over Biden for even considering the 3.5 trillion reconciliation. Trying to kill the BBB.
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Dec 3, 2021 04:10
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Gatts posted:I think. Businesses are trying to recover from Covid lag and also trying to gently caress over Biden for even considering the 3.5 trillion reconciliation. Trying to kill the BBB. The first part is true and the second part is half true - many businesses would like to kill the BBB (especially the original version) -, but higher prices and inflation isn't a coordinated effort by all businesses because of the BBB. The current inflation issue is global - the U.S. is ~6%, the E.U. is ~5.2%, the U.K. and Australia are ~5%. But, part of the issue is that there is a (likely temporary) labor shortage because the world economy opened up all at once and pent up demand exploded, but the supply chain can't meet the demand. This drives wages and prices up, but businesses are hoping that the labor shortage is temporary so that they can hire people back at "normal" (read: lower) rates without committing staff to these new higher wages permanently. They can't just not hire anyone, so they have to pay the higher wages, but they want to do everything in their power to get people back into the labor force quickly and ease demand to avoid bleeding money from under-staffing and be able to commit to more full-time permanent hires at lower "normalized" wages.
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Dec 3, 2021 04:16
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icantfindaname posted:I think you have to decompose inflation into different sectors, with different political implications for them. For pandemic related delays like computer and cars and poo poo, that should largely affect everyone equally rich or poor. Wait what
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Dec 3, 2021 04:16
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The problem with inflation (in the current moment) is that it is uneven and happened very rapidly in a 6-month period. The current inflation issue is largely supply-side and not driven by monetary policy, so you can't do the normal things on the interest rate side to bring down inflation. What "causes a political problem" is that there is no non-GOP political sector in power recognizing the very real pain that non-richie Americans are experiencing in trying to meet their basic needs while being told they should be grateful for inflation that raised their wages to still-sub-minimum living wages, and instead brushing it off as ignorant chuds who just don't appreciate how good they have it.
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Dec 3, 2021 04:19
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Harold Fjord posted:Wait what Well, it probably still hurts the poor more than the rich, but not by as much as other stuff I should have mentioned energy and food too, there's not much policy can do about that especially since we released those areas to the control of the Free Market decades ago
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Dec 3, 2021 04:22
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Harold Fjord posted:Wait what The rich and poor alike are upset that their [new car / means of traveling to their job] is getting [more expensive / unattainably expensive]
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Dec 3, 2021 04:24
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Willa Rogers posted:What "causes a political problem" is that there is no non-GOP political sector in power recognizing the very real pain that non-richie Americans are experiencing in trying to meet their basic needs while being told they should be grateful for inflation that raised their wages to still-sub-minimum living wages, and instead brushing it off as ignorant chuds who just don't appreciate how good they have it. That is a political problem. But, it isn't inherent to the issue of supply-side inflation. That's a political problem caused by a combination of political malpractice, lack of ability to do anything on the monetary side, and lack of will to take risks to do anything on the fiscal side.
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Dec 3, 2021 04:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It's the difference between sitting your entire body in a 101-degree hot tub (very nice!) and putting a 101-degree coal down your pants (not nice!) Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
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Dec 3, 2021 04:29
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Willa Rogers posted:What "causes a political problem" is that there is no non-GOP political sector in power recognizing the very real pain that non-richie Americans are experiencing in trying to meet their basic needs while being told they should be grateful for inflation that raised their wages to still-sub-minimum living wages, and instead brushing it off as ignorant chuds who just don't appreciate how good they have it. You pretending the GOP are the only ones sticking up for the little guy don't make it true.
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Dec 3, 2021 05:13
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Yinlock posted:All this framing of voters as uneducated rubes does is shift responsibility from politicians to the people they ostensibly serve. It may not be meant this way, but it very much comes off as chastising the common rabble for being insufficiently grateful for the table scraps they're given. I mean, if that particular focus group thing (and honestly lot of other things) was any indication, it isn't really about education anymore but like...object permanence. Which is why trying to get the American people on your side with promises of good policy is a wasted effort because good policy necessitates long-term thinking and details and nuance and holy poo poo we have a long way to go before those concepts can be absorbed by this electorate. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 05:14
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socialsecurity posted:You pretending the GOP are the only ones sticking up for the little guy don't make it true. It don't, huh? lol. Do you have anything else to offer in response other than following me from thread to thread & laying down inchoate slurs & grammatical abortions? Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 05:18
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DarkCrawler posted:I mean, if that particular focus group thing (and honestly lot of other things) was any indication, it isn't really about education anymore but like...object permanence. Which is why trying to get the American people on your side with promises of good policy is a wasted effort because good policy necessitates long-term thinking and details and nuance and holy poo poo we have a long way to go before those concepts can be absorbed by this electorate. You don't need to promise them "good policy." You need to promise them material gain.
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Dec 3, 2021 05:27
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Imagine giving away your political power to this extent: https://twitter.com/ddayen/status/1466412054361772033 And then, when the programs fail bc of their reliance on the gop, you catch the blame for their failure.
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Dec 3, 2021 05:29
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Majorian posted:You don't need to promise them "good policy." You need to promise them material gain. All politicians, in U.S. or elsewhere, promise material gain through one means or other. What separates this new promise from the old ones? Why would this electorate believe it any more? Did not say, Bernie Sanders, already promise material gain?
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Dec 3, 2021 05:47
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