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Asterite34 posted:I propose a compromise: I'm sure a hostile alien force will be more than happy to give our cosmonauts time to unmothball their ships, and then give them even more time to dust off the operations manual and refresh themselves on how the whole thing works. It's not like invasions happen on rapid, rigid timetables or anything.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:04
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Adding Nobel Prizes as potential medals Kalmar Union has in fluff restarted the Nobel Prizes a few years ago, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future no matter the outcome. This isn't so much an official vote as it is basically a poll on whether the rest of the CI view them as still sufficiently prestigious to ‘count’ as medals. It’ll by its nature primarily be medals for scientists, though I suppose the peace prize could be something of a wildcard. Support to the Youth Sports Initiative A vote on officially pledging support, in the form of material and logistics, to the volunteer Youth Sports Initiative. This will be spent building and maintaining various athletics facilities all over CI, especially in the areas devastated by war where rebuilding has focused on the essentials like shelter, clean water and medical services. It will also provide free transportation to teams/groups going to other countries for both ‘sports exchange programs’ and tournaments/competitions. In addition to promoting healthy activity, a competitive spirit and sportsmanship in our youth the hope is it’ll bring future generations closer together from spending time in other polities and with fellow youths from other parts of CI. Citizen’s Service We propose starting a program (and probably a new ministry with ties to education, labor and the military) called Citizen’s Service, inspired by the old Draft programs but civilian in focus. When a CI citizen comes of age in their local polity they get to pick one of three ‘branches’ of service. The civilian branch is a year working a job that their local community or one near theirs need doing, with allowances for desired career path (i.e. they wish to take over the family farm, they’ll spend a year as a farm hand at a different farm to see how they do things; they want to study medicine they’ll get a desk job/support job in a local clinic etc). In addition providing useful work for their local community they’ll also be trained during this year in rights, expectations, unions etc to prepare them for their future careers. The ‘military’ branch is explicitly not considered part of the military (though it by necessity will require cooperation with the CI military be it instructors or training facilities) it’s for those planning a career in the military. It'll basically be a year-long in-depth bootcamp that’ll give them a more realistic idea of what military life will be so they’ll make a better-informed decision when eventually volunteering, if they sign up they can be fast-tracked into their service of choice, and will hopefully improve the quality of our soldiers. And finally a ‘mixed’ service for those who want to experience a ‘military’/adventurous lifestyle for a little while, travel the world and do some good before settling down as a mechanic in Nowhere, Ohio. The trappings of military life (barracks, discipline, exercise etc) but instead of warfare they’re a highly-mobile source of manpower at disposal for whatever CI may need them for (helping out with the socialist aid program, food distribution, disaster relief etc). This will also be an something of an exchange program, where after an initial period relatively close to home an effort will be made to station them in an entirely different polity, preferably a different continent.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:10
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Asterite34 posted:I propose a compromise: You could alternatively make an act that states that all warships must be broadcasting their transponder when not at war(I forget if that's still a thing in C# Auroura). This basically means that everyone in system knows exactly where the ship is at all time, which might help with tensions and such.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:12
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paragon1 posted:I'm sure a hostile alien force will be more than happy to give our cosmonauts time to unmothball their ships, and then give them even more time to dust off the operations manual and refresh themselves on how the whole thing works. It's not like invasions happen on rapid, rigid timetables or anything. Are we to be like the capitalists then, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of mistrust and violence as each prepares for the 'inevitable' betrayal by the others? If there are travellers among the stars we must greet them with an open hand and the spirit of universal brotherhood, not the barrel of a gun, lest we once again repeat the tragedy of Earth's past.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:13
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I mean, from observation, we know that it is already the case up there, we have evidence of several engagements out there already. There's no real reason to do the old goon footbullet already, we haven't even gotten into a real fight yet.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:16
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The Lone Badger posted:Are we to be like the capitalists then, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of mistrust and violence as each prepares for the 'inevitable' betrayal by the others? If there are travellers among the stars we must greet them with an open hand and the spirit of universal brotherhood, not the barrel of a gun, lest we once again repeat the tragedy of Earth's past. No, we are to be like the people who didn't get killed by capitalists, because we had really big guns and were willing and able to use them. Did you, perchance, miss the ample evidence of mass violence in our solar system, totally free of human involvement? The Ministry of Health Act A global Ministry of Health will be created with the mission to set standards for healthcare providers and procedures, track global health trends and problems, combat and eliminate infectious disease, provide education and preventative tools, manufacture needed medicines, test and approve new medications, and support and provide for the construction of health infrastructure where it is determined to be lacking.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:17
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The Lone Badger posted:Are we to be like the capitalists then, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of mistrust and violence as each prepares for the 'inevitable' betrayal by the others? If there are travellers among the stars we must greet them with an open hand and the spirit of universal brotherhood, not the barrel of a gun, lest we once again repeat the tragedy of Earth's past. If these aliens are so omnibenevolent, I'm sure they'll have the patience and tolerance to overlook our primitive hard-learned brutish paranoia. If they aren't, then at least we won't be caught defenseless.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:18
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paragon1 posted:No, we are to be like the people who didn't get killed by capitalists, because we had really big guns and were willing and able to use them. Did you, perchance, miss the ample evidence of mass violence in our solar system, totally free of human involvement? Seconded.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:23
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Telsa Cola posted:You could alternatively make an act that states that all warships must be broadcasting their transponder when not at war(I forget if that's still a thing in C# Auroura). This basically means that everyone in system knows exactly where the ship is at all time, which might help with tensions and such. Seconded
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Dec 3, 2021 02:26
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NewMars posted:My third and final bill: Establishment of the Ministry of Agriculture Act I feel like we can kill at least 2.5 birds with one stone here. I suggest that our newly inducted Comintern member state Haiti be a key site of this new Ministry's infrastructure, especially as a site of pilot projects in agricultural research. Agriculture is one of the region's biggest industries, and it makes sense if we want to invest in their economy by giving their key economic activities a sci-fi futuretech glow-up. Plus it feels like a good area for researching efficient and sustainable food production in tropical and subtropical regions. Remember that the biggest capitalist holdouts left that we haven't really made any overtures towards yet is Brazil and Nigeria. A very useful carrot for dealing with them might be superadvanced agricultural tech instead of just more spaceship crap they might not care about. (The U of M is ready and willing to commit its resources to the project. I'm sure we can cultivate an apple that'll grow in brackish water or whatever)
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Dec 3, 2021 02:52
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The Lone Badger posted:Are we to be like the capitalists then, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of mistrust and violence as each prepares for the 'inevitable' betrayal by the others? If there are travellers among the stars we must greet them with an open hand and the spirit of universal brotherhood, not the barrel of a gun, lest we once again repeat the tragedy of Earth's past. There are at least two different groups of aliens that have sufficiently hostile relations they shot at each other in our drat solar system. Quite recently if we consider things on a timescale perspective set by interstellar distances and the speed of our TNE drives.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:57
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Aye, there's a difference between being optimistic and reaching for peace and being outright naive.
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Dec 3, 2021 02:58
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Antilles posted:Adding Nobel Prizes as potential medals Seconded
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Dec 3, 2021 03:42
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paragon1 posted:Armed Spacecraft Proposal As this is the first time we’re trying to design a ship, do we want to pass a more specific request for designs from our shipyards and theorists? We would want to know its intended role, expected mission profiles, desired capabilities… etc.
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Dec 3, 2021 03:43
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Pirate Radar posted:As this is the first time we’re trying to design a ship, do we want to pass a more specific request for designs from our shipyards and theorists? We would want to know its intended role, expected mission profiles, desired capabilities… etc. the ship design contest will be held separately after session, and if you want to set specific parameters the designers must abide by, now would be the time to do so with legislation (Feel free to post and discuss possible designs before we actually start choosing one though) Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 04:12
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Don't forget that based on previous legislation we're civilian in nature and we've a defensive/not shooting first doctrine. It seems to me we should plan/design/build a space coast guard, not a space navy. If we need sleek and pure killing machines, isn't it possible to build ground-based fighters that can scramble into space if necessary?
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Dec 3, 2021 04:16
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Antilles posted:Don't forget that based on previous legislation we're civilian in nature and we've a defensive/not shooting first doctrine. It seems to me we should plan/design/build a space coast guard, not a space navy. If we need sleek and pure killing machines, isn't it possible to build ground-based fighters that can scramble into space if necessary? Indeed it’s possible. The heavy fighter already proposed, for instance, would have to operate from a planet with maintenance and crew facilities. Whether this means the fighters are ground-based and launch to orbit or are just sitting around an orbital starbase is a matter of thread fluff and our imaginations.
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Dec 3, 2021 04:42
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Antilles posted:Don't forget that based on previous legislation we're civilian in nature and we've a defensive/not shooting first doctrine. It seems to me we should plan/design/build a space coast guard, not a space navy. If we need sleek and pure killing machines, isn't it possible to build ground-based fighters that can scramble into space if necessary? But we've already ascertained that there are aliens, that they're violent towards each other, and that at least some of them have done bad things to humans. Yes, we are peaceful, but we also need to defend ourselves, and a space coast guard isn't gonna cut it against aliens that have been stalking us for who knows how long. In other words, a strong military is needed to ensure continued peace and stability (and neutrality, if that's what we're going for on the galactic stage); that's why Switzerland has never neglected its military, for example. We absolutely need a space navy, and honestly we needed it yesterday. Boat Stuck fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 05:30
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sebmojo posted:PRNZ propose PROJECT FALX, a crash course to upgrade our space combat readiness. This should have a goal of achieving a practical (taking into account current or readily achievable technology) but effective space fighting force, under the jurisdiction of XCOM, within two years, comprising at least ten craft capable of engaging and defeating a similar size force of the crashed Grey ships. did we vote in PROJECT FALX?
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Dec 3, 2021 05:52
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sebmojo posted:did we vote in PROJECT FALX? yes, that is why you are obligated to design an armed spacecraft
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Dec 3, 2021 05:53
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Dec 3, 2021 06:04
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Space battleship Kirov looking good.
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Dec 3, 2021 06:08
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I hadn’t looked closely at the text of FALX when it came up and I have a clarifying question. quote:comprising at least ten craft capable of engaging and defeating a similar size force of the crashed Grey ships Here, does “a similar size force” mean “ten” or does it mean that the force should try to achieve qualitative parity? If we build 15 they should be able to take on 15 of the Grey ships, if we build 20… you get the idea.
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Dec 3, 2021 06:36
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The latter, my syntax was a bit tangled.
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Dec 3, 2021 12:54
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sebmojo posted:The latter, my syntax was a bit tangled. I thought that's what it meant, I just hoped it wasn't a call for qualitative parity! I'm not sure I've achieved that, so these designs may be called unsuitable. (skip to the end for designs) * TRÈS SECRET DÉFENSE Dear Delegates, The attached documents discuss the theoretical background for armed spacecraft up to the limit of our current understanding. They have been prepared by a group of military and technical experts for your consideration. ----------------------------------- 1. The spacecraft recovered by the Americans and the evidence available on the Martian surface make it clear, beyond reasonable doubt, that advanced combat has taken place within our solar system. The Roswell craft (Object A) gives us a foundation on which to base our expectations for the capabilities of extraterrestrial military craft, whose existence is confirmed but whose intentions are as yet unknown to the human race. 2. However, there is no previous body of human experience upon which to base our expectations for the nature of space combat. Therefore we have attempted to assemble pieces of knowledge taken from aerial and naval combat together with our present understanding of space travel and extraterrestrial military technology. 3. We have had to assemble the terminology with which this subject can be discussed at the same time as assembling said knowledge; therefore, we have found ourselves using a mix of aerial and naval terminology. These terms may be regarded as placeholders for the time being. 3.1. Finding that TNE equipment, while highly capable, is typically much larger and heavier than conventional equipment, we have concluded that even the smallest viable armed spacecraft will be much larger than currently existing conventional military aircraft. We have decided on the following set of terms. 3.1.1. An armed spacecraft massing up to 250 tons is a fighter. This is roughly five times the size of the largest current atmospheric fighter, the Tupolev-128 interceptor. 3.1.1.1. We do not believe that our current technology allows us to construct a militarily viable spacecraft of this size. 3.1.2. An armed spacecraft massing between 250 and 500 tons is a heavy fighter. This is larger than most current military aircraft, comparable only to the American “Galaxy” cargo aircraft or to Alexeyev’s larger ground-effect designs (we are told that the Americans dubbed the largest one the “Caspian Sea Monster”). 3.1.2.1. We believe that a design of this size is possible, and present one below. 3.1.3. An armed spacecraft massing between 500 and 1000 tons is a fast attack craft. Conventional naval ships of this mass have proven highly successful while remaining affordable and simple to operate. 3.1.3.1. We believe that a design of this size is possible, and present one below. 3.1.4. Spacecraft above this size are subject to considerable uncertainty and debate. Their existence has been postulated, due to the belief that Object A relied on a “mothership” or carrier of some kind, but it is unknown if this mothership was also a combatant or if it was intended only for logistical support. There is general agreement that the smallest armed spacecraft above 1000 tons should be called a corvette, but we lack the information and experience necessary to make any solid predictions above the 1000-ton range. 3.1.4.1. We are not presenting designs above this size in this document for a variety of reasons. 3.1.4.1.1. We lack experience with building and crewing armed spacecraft of any size. Larger craft are more complex to command and control. 3.1.4.1.2. We expect that a large warship might be more politically disruptive than a small one. 3.1.4.1.3. We believe that with present technology a larger ship does not offer sufficient advantages to be worth the cost, especially compared to potentially building more of a smaller design. 4. We have attempted to estimate the capabilities that Object A had when it was in one piece, and have spent significant time carrying out physical and computer simulations of combat between examples of Object A, and between Object A and our potential human-built spacecraft. For the programming of these simulations we owe a debt to our software engineer Mr. Walmsley, without whom we would have been stuck rolling a great number of dice and keeping track of everything on paper. 5. For weaponry, we have assumed that the newly developed EXCALIBUR railgun is the armament of choice. We have given due consideration to missile armament, keeping in mind that we believe Object A to have been armed with missiles. However, we are aware that arming spacecraft with nuclear missiles is a politically sensitive topic, and are not presenting any missile-armed designs at this time. 6. We have concluded that speed is a key factor for the effectiveness and longevity of an armed spacecraft, especially against missile-armed spacecraft such as Object A. Due to expected engineering concerns, the railguns of our theoretical spacecraft are mounted longitudinally, so the whole craft must spin in order to traverse the gun. High speed therefore increases weapon accuracy. 7. In designing our theoretical craft, we have felt obligated to begin with the weapons, in effect, designing the spacecraft around the guns. We therefore view each of the following designs as “weapon systems”; each supporting system is intended to aid in the central task of getting the weapon into a firing position. The core components of the weapons system--the gun and its supporting reactor--are the same in both designs, and you will notice their obvious visual similarity. 7.1. Concept Alpha is a “Heavy Fighter”, though it might be better to imagine it as a heavy bomber, with its crew of 19. It should reach up to 2500 kilometers per second, and has very limited endurance. It could reach Luna any time it wanted, but could only cross the void to Mars during certain periods of planetary alignment. Due to space constraints, its active sensors are short-ranged, but are aimed at detecting small objects such as incoming missiles. Simulations give it a 25% chance of hitting a target traveling twice its speed (5000 km/s), and as its railgun fires four shots per burst, we consider this manageable. It can be produced on Earth’s surface with existing or quickly adaptable facilities.  7.2. Design Study 001 is a fast attack craft, nearly twice Alpha’s mass. It carries the same weapon but is faster and longer-ranged. It can fly from Earth to Mars and back with enough fuel left over to pull combat maneuvers somewhere along the way. It has also been given an additional, longer-ranged active sensor and an additional layer of armor for survivability. Its greater speed gives it a slightly higher chance of hitting its target. On paper, it is far superior to Alpha, but it is more expensive to build and maintain, and will have to be built in orbit at one of our naval shipyards.  8. Of note for the future is that our designs have a bottleneck when it comes to capacitors. The EXCALIBUR railgun would be capable of firing twice as fast if its capacitors were improved; the current design cannot recharge fast enough to keep the gun firing at its maximum theoretical rate. Further research in this field will unlock new capabilities. 9. We expect that future technological developments, as well as practical experience with spacecraft construction and deployment, will inevitably obsolete these early designs, and that refits and revisions will take place in due course.
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Dec 3, 2021 13:56
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We are a long way from any kind of qualitative parity with the Roswell stuff, we're still not sure what their qualities even are. We have only guesswork about their speed, maneuverability or weapons. We know they use missiles, but they could be filled with loving antimatter for all we know. The best info we have is on the raw strength of their ship hulls, a material we as yet can't perfectly replicate. Heck, do we even know if our railguns can penetrate the stuff? Has anyone taken an Excalibur to the test range and lobbed a few shells at some Roswell hull sample? Because THEY sure as all hell have weapons that can tear through it like cardboard. Some of these concerns might be alleviated once we get a proper engineering team to dissect the intact Face ships, but that's a ways off yet. That being said, we can hardly say we're skimping here, this is literally the most advanced weapons platform humanity has ever built, so it's kinda either this or some obviously worse alternative. The only other currently viable choice of armament is nukes, which we're all leery of sticking in orbit. Though frankly even these designs are all potential weapons of mass destruction by themselves. Just because they don't throw fallout everywhere doesn't mean that ten seconds of sustained fire from this thing wouldn't be as devastating as any tactical nuke.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:55
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Asterite34 posted:We are a long way from any kind of qualitative parity with the Roswell stuff, we're still not sure what their qualities even are. We have only guesswork about their speed, maneuverability or weapons. We know they use missiles, but they could be filled with loving antimatter for all we know. To quote the imperialists: building a ship takes three years, building a new tradition takes three centuries. Vice-Admiral Sergey Gorshkov had already noted similar arguments for the necessity of a blue-water navy for the Soviet Union. We need to start building this tradition ASAP. It doesn't matter that our equipment is currently inferior to everything a potential opponent might pack. We need to build a culture for our Red Fleet. We need training regimes, doctrines, tactics, logistics, design bureaus, academies and all the small things which turns a bunch of hulls into an actual fleet. We need to show the population what an interplanetary fleet might be capable of, why we have to sacrifice the fruits of their labour. and finally we need a cadre of experienced crews to form a nucleus for a future fleet, if we are forced into building such a blunt instrument of the states power.
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Dec 3, 2021 23:04
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Mycroft Holmes posted:The Republic of the Outer Banks supports these proposals, but feels the calendar proposal is doomed to fail for the same reasons as the French revolutionary one, the Gregorian calendar is too entrenched now to repeal. All computers currently use it, and recoding them all would be a nightmare. So? With TNEs we are about to start on a completely new age of computers that will use entirely new code, and Computer Character Encoding Act will likely pass so even basic text will become incompatible with current machines. What is the calender compared to that?
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Dec 4, 2021 02:32
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Asterite34 posted:Just because they don't throw fallout everywhere doesn't mean that ten seconds of sustained fire from this thing wouldn't be as devastating as any tactical nuke. To be fair “ten seconds” is one burst from these things, they can only shoot once every ten seconds with our current tech—that’s every other turn in game terms. If our capacitors were one step better we could shoot every turn, but the reactor would have to be a little bigger.
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Dec 4, 2021 05:29
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Deliberations are closed! Voting in a Google Form was way the gently caress faster and more convenient than doing so in-thread so we'll just do that again. Give me a bit to put it together and I'll have it up to start voting. There is one issue that still needs to be addressed, namely the Ascension Accords, which we're handling separately because you already voted yes on them last year, at this point you're just working out terms. Again, as a reminder, the draft you voted to offer is here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3943978&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=38#post513634019 TDS posted:So, what is the status of this diplomatic outreach, have any policies commented on the proposed draft? Is there anything in them that's a dealbreaker we need to adjust? Although it got lost in all the chaos of the last year, you did indeed send this draft to potential interested parties - the Japanese, the Hawaiians, the Iranians, etc. - and the response has been broadly agreeable. If anyone has changes they want to make to this draft - provisions they want to add or remove, language they want to clarify, etc. - before officially presenting it for ratification, now would be the time to suggest them. If there ends up being clear consensus on treaty language we'll just use that, if not we'll get it narrowed down to the most popular versions and have a vote.
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Dec 4, 2021 09:02
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It seems broadly agreeable to me, at least?
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Dec 4, 2021 12:06
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Since it seems nobody's found any glaring loopholes and it seems internationally popular, I motion we pass the Accords as proposed.
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Dec 4, 2021 20:41
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It DOES force us to reveal all that mineral survey data, which is pretty one-sided, but eh gently caress it, I'm sure someone with a half-decent spy service can figure that out from us anyway
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Dec 4, 2021 20:58
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As there is a clear consensus, no changes will be made to the treaty draft, and it will be presented to the international community for ratification at the beginning of the year. VOTING IS NOW OPEN! Please vote via the following Google form: https://forms.gle/PUbiYRsZdqcafW7E8 Feel free to discuss the proposals up for vote or advocate for or against certain positions in the thread. Voting will remain open for approximately 72 hours.
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Dec 5, 2021 09:26
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i love voting on things
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Dec 5, 2021 13:15
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PRCal encourages people to vote against CZ-99. While existing intellectual property law must be reformed or eliminated there should be provision for people to control sequels and spinoffs long enough to tell multi-part stories. As well, capitalist nations still exist and we must have a framework that accounts for them stealing ideas without sowing into the social systems that support the creators.
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Dec 5, 2021 17:24
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idhrendur posted:PRCal encourages people to vote against CZ-99. While existing intellectual property law must be reformed or eliminated there should be provision for people to control sequels and spinoffs long enough to tell multi-part stories. As well, capitalist nations still exist and we must have a framework that accounts for them stealing ideas without sowing into the social systems that support the creators. CZ-99 already has a section concerning capitalist attempts at theft, and explicitly is only within the Cominterp.
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Dec 5, 2021 18:59
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I'm kind of surprised at how popular A-112, the "mandatory government service" bill is.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:36
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I must urge all my fellow representatives to consider voting against A-112. Have we not just shattered the shackles of capitalism, which forced workers to work under the double threat of starvation and homelessness? Why then are we so eager to add new shackles to the workers of the world? We must take a firm and absolute stand against all forms of forced labor. And what is a mandatory service but slavery, enforced by state violence? The current proposal might try to sugarcoat things, but how long until less desirable jobs need doing? How long until youths are marched under the threat of punishment into mines or into the fields when there's a manpower shortage? And how many youths will rage, rage against the state that takes from them an entire year of their life, driving them into subversive activities or fostering cominterp resentment? So I call on all of you: Vote no to A-112. A NO to 112 is a vote for the freedom and emancipation of workers worldwide.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:30
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You know this reminds me. What do we do if we want to change our vote?
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Dec 5, 2021 21:32
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