|
Wang Commander posted:They farm a lot of this out to Proud Boy types and local hicks historically if you look at Jim Crow and a lot of the 20th century oppression of Native Americans or the 2020 protests. Genocide is manpower-intensive and people are likely to be facing Kyle Rittenhouse and friends at least at first - in fact, they literally are right now! You're making a lot of assumptions here about it being useless to street fight with the freikorps because you can't beat up a tank or whatever. If you want my actual answer to this question and your earlier question about "accepting disempowerment," instead of trying to organize community defense or whatever, the answer is that if we get to the point where open street fighting between Left and Right begins and we're in de facto civil war, we won't need our Trusty Musket or to Gird On Our Father's Sword. The insurgencies that fought back against US Imperial Power and succeeded were not buying guns and ammo from the local shop and practicing down at the range for when Der Tag arrives. If the day comes where a house-to-house genocide begins, you're not going to resist it with militarized neighborhoods and personal arms. They'll just bring more and bigger guns than you even if you throw them back once. That's the fantasy. You can count the revolutions and civil defenses that succeeded through entirely internal means without organized and properly supplied military support or external nation-state patrons in all of World History on one hand. In exchange for that fantasy of being able to Make A Fight Of It, the "security blanket," we are permitting a society where innocent people, especially children, die constantly and premeditated murderers like Rittenhouse are increasingly normalized and protected under color of law. I made the comment about Trans Self Defense not because I don't believe that Trans People, or any person, doesn't have the right to defend themselves, but because the statistics show incontrovetibly that no matter who you are, trans or otherwise, a gun isn't going to protect you. Its far more likely to get you killed. That, again, its the "security blanket." Owning a gun may make you feel safer if you're someone like World Famous W's brother, but every bit of evidence screams that it doesn't. I'm sympathetic to the psychological need for even the fantasy of control and safety, holy loving poo poo am I sympathetic to it. I feel like I'm wandering in a loving void of joyless emptiness half the time anymore, I would love it if I could feel more control and safety in my life even if I knew it was a lie. But in the case of guns using them as the path to that fantasy is perpetuating some of the worst carnage in American society and feeding leftist capital resources into the pockets of the very people you want to defend yourselves from. It's not just pointless, its an active negative.
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:12 |
|
|
It sounds like the kid needed serious mental help and his chud parents chose instead it treat him like a wimp. They are more than culpable for their child's actions. Meanwhile, Tom Cotton is again being a gigantic hypocrite: https://twitter.com/TrumpsTaxes/status/1466566152470028300?s=20 CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 20:57
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Rittenhouse is one of the governmentally approved freikorps paramilitary dudes coming to murder activists As much as I hate the result of that case, I don't agree with that interpretation. I see a big difference between what happened with Rittenhouse and the idea of a military squad with official, explicit, and licensed government backing moving through the country executing people. Is it a precursor? Maybe. But if you really believe that's what you're preparing for and just want a gun to go out in a hail of glory, then I don't see that as anything but another brand of doomerism, and no different from open carry idiots thinking they'll John Wick an active shooter situation at their local walmart.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:If you want my actual answer to this question and your earlier question about "accepting disempowerment," instead of trying to organize community defense or whatever, the answer is that if we get to the point where open street fighting between Left and Right begins and we're in de facto civil war, we won't need our Trusty Musket or to Gird On Our Father's Sword. The insurgencies that fought back against US Imperial Power and succeeded were not buying guns and ammo from the local shop and practicing down at the range for when Der Tag arrives. If the day comes where a house-to-house genocide begins, you're not going to resist it with militarized neighborhoods and personal arms. They'll just bring more and bigger guns than you even if you throw them back once. I'm not trying to be glib here, but, what's the alternative? Just...lay down and die? Hope they only "near" fatally wound you, and you wind up in the hospital ward at South Florida Reception Center and eventually get transferred as a political prisoner? e: vvv Kalit, we are talking about the same Huey Newton, leader of the Black Panthers and organizer of an armed protest on the capitol steps, right? Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Now go back in time and lecture Huey Newton Why would I? He definitely didn’t own a gun solely for personal self defense E: Lib and let die posted:e: vvv Kalit, we are talking about the same Huey Newton, leader of the Black Panthers and organizer of an armed protest on the capitol steps, right? Yes? He owned guns to create a social movement to fight for racial equality, which is my point… Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I made the comment about Trans Self Defense not because I don't believe that Trans People, or any person, doesn't have the right to defend themselves, but because the statistics show incontrovetibly that no matter who you are, trans or otherwise, a gun isn't going to protect you. Its far more likely to get you killed. That, again, its the "security blanket." Owning a gun may make you feel safer if you're someone like World Famous W's brother, but every bit of evidence screams that it doesn't. How do those numbers look when you remove suicide and domestic abuse, which we're not at all talking about here?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
Biden says he has a cold Folks were hosed. Like hosed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:03
|
|
|
Wang Commander posted:How do those numbers look when you remove suicide and domestic abuse, which we're not at all talking about here? Still four times as likely to be injured via accidental discharge as I already posted.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:05
|
|
|
Crain posted:As much as I hate the result of that case, I don't agree with that interpretation. I see a big difference between what happened with Rittenhouse and the idea of a military squad with official, explicit, and licensed government backing moving through the country executing people. I am a huge weiner who would react to the Rittenhouse situation by running away personally because I don't want to be in a gun battle, I just think the argument that shooting him with a gun couldn't have stopped him or saved lives to be bizarre. Of course it could have. He wasn't driving an Abrams with a drone army airstriking anything that moved, he was one oo-rah kid who thought it would be fun to ice some "looters" with a legal system designed to coddle and protect people like him VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:07
|
|
|
Wang Commander posted:How do those numbers look when you remove suicide and domestic abuse, which we're not at all talking about here? Why are we removing suicide and domestic abuse when talking about the impacts of owning a gun?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:09
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:I'm not trying to be glib here, but, what's the alternative? Just...lay down and die? Hope they only "near" fatally wound you, and you wind up in the hospital ward at South Florida Reception Center and eventually get transferred as a political prisoner? I'll ask you to really, really, engage in some introspection about what your deep seated motivations are when it comes to these thoughts. Better yet, speak with a therapist you can trust to work through them. If you're honestly worried about having to fight for your life, gun or not, and expect to be in life or death situations in the near future due to the political climate, then there are still far better avenues to explore than just buying a gun and learning to use it. Like assume you're dead set on going the "fight or die" route: Are you exercising? Doing high intensity interval training to be able to run away or reach cover in a fight? Are you doing endurance training to be able to keep running if you have to flee on foot? Are you lifting weights to be able to carry the equipment you'll need? Learning survival skills if you have to live out in the wilderness? Are you creating a network of people you can trust for when poo poo hits the fan? Do you have supplies in a bug out bag? Or are you buying a gun to live out a self destructive fantasy?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:11
|
|
|
This whole gun conversation is literally just the basic philosophical argument of conservatism vs. liberalism. The liberal argument is not that the number of people who have defended themselves with guns is 0; it's that collectively, society ends up with way more accidental deaths, suicides, and murders when the guns are available on an individual level and it is better overall to not have them. The conservative argument is that we shouldn't prevent the individuals who can and will defend themselves from doing so by sacrificing their individual liberty, even if it does result in a worse outcome for the world overall.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:11
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Why would I? He definitely didn’t own a gun solely for personal self defense I....I don't even know how to respond to this. Fighting for racial equality made him a target of violence. Are you saying one of the leading Black revolutionaries in American history ever, was so safe and isolated from harm that he only owned a gun for show? Crain posted:I'll ask you to really, really, engage in some introspection about what your deep seated motivations are when it comes to these thoughts. Better yet, speak with a therapist you can trust to work through them. We've already got laws down here that allow vigilantes to plow through crowds of protestors, consequence free. The killing of leftists has been enshrined into Florida law. I've already told you I have some level of community organizing in place. I'm not saying more than that. It's dangerous to do so - especially given the news to come out of Florida just yesterday re: Desantis's death squads. I'm not sure you're even reading my posts at this point - I've already said I'm prepared to die when they come, defending myself or not, because when they come, they're going to come with killing intent. I've told you I'm not in a physical state to expect to survive a gun fight, but you keep pressing me as to what my plan is, what my training regiment is...right now, the focus is "regain full use of my right arm." But this is part of why it's so dangerous to discuss actual community organizing in public spaces like this - there's enough disparate information about me scattered around these forums that I could very easily be doxxed and reported to my governor's office, compromising every bit of community I've tried to build up over the last couple of years. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:12
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I understand it. Gun Fuckers are selfish, horrible people who do their stupid hobby based on lies. They lie to themselves about what guns are useful for and why guns are good and why their behavior around guns is acceptable because if they sat down and interrogated themselves they'd realize that the real reasons they buy their Murder Security Blankets are pure evil. They want to do violence and they want others to know they're ready and willing to do violence and they want to practice doing violence for the thrill they get from using the machine and displaying their skill with it and they want to group up with other people that share their values vis a vis violence and then loudly, angrily project those feelings onto others to silence criticism of their behavior and then use their political power to protect their right to do all those things without any limitations regardless of the other political consequences that come with it. It's too late for any sort of "gun control" in this country besides "annoyance" laws like CAL, but you can't even get even the "leftiest" TFR goons to admit that guns have gotten extremely loving nerdy and available since 2000 or whatever and never should have been allowed to become a nerd collector hobby. They can't even have a basic Glock without adding 5 attachments to it and adding camo cerakote or an M4 without dying the plastic bits lime green or purple (and having 15 attachments) and are always dreaming of their next purchase (I need a short one a long one a pink one a purple one, etc!). NERDS
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
So the parents are now missing and the US Marshalls are on the case.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:I'm not trying to be glib here, but, what's the alternative? Just...lay down and die? Hope they only "near" fatally wound you, and you wind up in the hospital ward at South Florida Reception Center and eventually get transferred as a political prisoner? I have some of my own thoughts on what the best route to dealing with a totalitarian/open murder level oppression might be, but I also know they're rooted in my privilege, ivory tower intellectualism and a still-woefully incomplete knowledge of history in places that have actually had to deal with that. I don't want to embarrass myself by trying to throw them out and exposing how little I know what I'm talking about. But I do know with absolutely certainty that the Second Amendment Solution (for lack of a better term) is no solution, and that hoping that it might be is contributing to grave harm. Leftists who are buying guns based on that hope are only helping people like the psycho chud parents in this story stay armed, stay politically powerful, and stay insulated from the consequences when life gets snuffed out. Wang Commander posted:How do those numbers look when you remove suicide and domestic abuse, which we're not at all talking about here? You really think that the suicide and domestic abuse parts of the statistics are irrelevant for LGBTQ+ people? Come on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
Guys, we all know how gun chat is going to go, please try to minimize it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
Keyser_Soze posted:It's too late for any sort of "gun control" in this country besides "annoyance" laws like CAL, but you can't even get even the "leftiest" TFR goons to admit that guns have gotten extremely loving nerdy and available since 2000 or whatever and never should have been allowed to become a nerd collector hobby. They can't even have a basic Glock without adding 5 attachments to it and adding camo cerakote or an M4 without dying the plastic bits lime green or purple (and having 15 attachments) and are always dreaming of their next purchase (I need a short one a long one a pink one a purple one, etc!). NERDS I would definitely argue that the ratio of guns to gun ranges is now so high in the cities and suburbs that no one knows what the gently caress they're doing particularly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:15
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The conservative argument is that we shouldn't prevent the individuals who can and will defend themselves from doing so by sacrificing their individual liberty, even if it does result in a worse outcome for the world overall. "No Way to Prevent This" is the Onion article that gets passed around but their Sandy Hook post is the one that sticks with me:  quote:NEWTOWN, CT—Following today’s mass shooting that left 20 young children dead at a Connecticut elementary school, numerous sources across the country reported that their government-protected right to own a portable device that propels small masses of metal through the air at lethal rates of speed is completely worth any such consequences. “It’s my God-given right and a founding principle of this country that I be able to own a [piece of metal that launches other smaller pieces of metal great distances, one after the other], and if a few deaths here and there is the price we have to pay for that freedom, then so be it,” said Lawrence Crane of nearby Danbury, CT, who is such a staunch advocate of the portable deadly-pellet-flinging apparatuses that he keeps multiple versions of such mechanisms in his home, often carries one with him, and is a member of a club whose sole purpose is to celebrate these assembled steel things and the small bits of metal they send flying. “Sure, it’s sad that a few kids died, but it’s far better than the tyranny that would result if the government came and took away all our [mechanical contraptions that make a lot of little pointy chunks of metal go through the air fast]. Can you even imagine what kind of horrible world that would be?” The man added that if the events that unfolded today led lawmakers to question his ability to possess any such items of steel and lead, authorities would have to “pry the [wholly inanimate mechanical object, nothing more, nothing less] from [his] dead hands.”
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:17
|
|
|
School shooter's parents are on the run after the charges against them were announced. U.S. Marshalls are investigating because they appear to have fled state lines. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1466860422166822914 Someone at the Oakland County Sheriff's office didn't communicate before the announcement and hosed up. Either that or they thought the parents would willingly turn themselves in and didn't need to arrest before the announcement.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:22
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:I....I don't even know how to respond to this. Fighting for racial equality made him a target of violence. Are you saying one of the leading Black revolutionaries in American history ever, was so safe and isolated from harm that he only owned a gun for show? Why are you even bringing up Huey Newton when I was talking about how ineffective a gun is for personal self defense? One of the side reasons he had a gun might have been for self defense? I honestly don’t know. But he used them for way the gently caress more than that. For show was definitely a big reason, hence why they would do open carry demonstrations. E: VVV because lib and let die was trying to get a sick dunk on me by bringing up Newton when I was talking about how guns aren’t good tools for personal self defense. If you go back a few posts, you can see it Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:23
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Why are you even bringing up Huey Newton when I was talking about how ineffective a gun is for personal self defense? One of the side reasons he had a gun might have been for self defense? I honestly don’t know. MLKs house was absolutely full of guns. I bet he once or twice used them for something that wasn't 100% self defense. The gently caress are you going with this?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Why are you even bringing up Huey Newton when I was talking about how ineffective a gun is for personal self defense? One of the side reasons he had a gun might have been for self defense? I honestly don’t know. I'll risk getting hit for carrying on the discussion after we've been asked to stop: What if leftists started doing open carry demonstrations? (the invariable conclusion of "they would be gunned down by the national guard before they were ever in sight of the capitol building" notwithstanding) Personally, if I were sitting on the House floor casting a vote on, say, Medicare for All, I'd be more likely to vote in line with what the mob outside wants if they were waving rifles instead of pink knitted caps. But that's just my basic survival instinct. e: vvvv yes, thank you. that's exactly what I'm trying to tease out. What many consider "terrorism" today, was simple "activism" back during the civil rights movement. e2: "simple" Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Dec 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:28
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:I'll risk getting hit for carrying on the discussion after we've been asked to stop: Buddy, it's a second amendment right for the chuds to do this but it's openly discussing the merits of terrorism for you to even talk about it. This ain't the venue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
The first $100+ million contract for a public school football coach was a few days ago. The second $100+ million contract for a public school football coach happened in the same week. This time at the University of Oregon. Miami University (also a public school; and in Ohio, not the other Miami) is also allegedly negotiating a $100+ million contract for a football coach. https://twitter.com/johncanzanobft/status/1466864004026953735
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:37
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:I'll risk getting hit for carrying on the discussion after we've been asked to stop: I'm sympathetic to the argument and the historical precedent, the problem is that going in this direction inevitably invites escalation from counter-protest, especially in the current climate. When coupled with the radicalization of law enforcement and the American Media Ecosystem in the 21st Century, the outcome is not going to lead to the advancement of leftist goals. Quite the contrary. In a lot of ways things right now are very similar to the 60s, but they're also different in a lot of ways. Some of those ways are better, a lot of them are worse. To me the lay of the land makes it clear that the "keep the government in fear of the people," approach is not a viable path. I know you don't see it that way though, so this is the point where it's got to be agree to disagree I guess. Don't think that's me copping out, I just don't see how the conversation stays productive beyond this point.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:43
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I'm sympathetic to the argument and the historical precedent, the problem is that going in this direction inevitably invites escalation from counter-protest, especially in the current climate. When coupled with the radicalization of law enforcement and the American Media Ecosystem in the 21st Century, the outcome is not going to lead to the advancement of leftist goals. Quite the contrary. In a lot of ways things right now are very similar to the 60s, but they're also different in a lot of ways. Some of those ways are better, a lot of them are worse. To me the lay of the land makes it clear that the "keep the government in fear of the people," approach is not a viable path. No, I think you're pretty well on the money (see my throwaway re: being gunned down before even arriving at the protest site) on it being an avenue to escalation but the only thing I might add on my part is that, as much as I see this as the most likely conclusion to "these times"...it breaks my heart that it's going that way. I wish, with ever fiber of my being that I didn't see a violent end on the horizon but...I just don't have that hope anymore.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
quote:‘Teacher Loyalty’ bill would restrict how U.S. history, especially racism, can be discussed in school https://www.concordmonitor.com/House-Republicans-file-teacher-loyalty-bill-43842418
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:No, I think you're pretty well on the money (see my throwaway re: being gunned down before even arriving at the protest site) on it being an avenue to escalation but the only thing I might add on my part is that, as much as I see this as the most likely conclusion to "these times"...it breaks my heart that it's going that way. I wish, with ever fiber of my being that I didn't see a violent end on the horizon but...I just don't have that hope anymore. I'm certainly not blind to the possibility. I don't blame you for not having the hope that otherwise is still possible. That hope is one of the only things that I feel like I have left these days, even if there are plenty of days where its a baseless faith sort of hope. I guess we'll both see who was right before too many more years pass... Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:https://www.concordmonitor.com/House-Republicans-file-teacher-loyalty-bill-43842418 New Hampshire is the New England state where the margins with the GOP are closest right? Guess this'll be a big test to see just how far this Make Social Studies Propaganda Again thing can go. Crackpots in state legislatures propose stupid poo poo that goes nowhere all the time, but if this is a legitimate push to make it a rallying issue for the State GOP we'll find out soon enough, especially with their Senate Seat up in '22.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 21:58
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Crackpots in state legislatures propose stupid poo poo that goes nowhere all the time, but if this is a legitimate push to make it a rallying issue for the State GOP we'll find out soon enough, especially with their Senate Seat up in '22. This is a follow-up bill to one that already passed earlier this year. quote:Just one year after New Hampshire legislators first introduced a bill that banned the teaching or discussion of “divisive concepts” like systemic racism, another bill will be debated this legislative session that would take those restrictions further.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:04
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:School shooter's parents are on the run after the charges against them were announced. Lmao Oh these fucks totally knew the whole time. Also great job abandoning your hosed up kid to the wolves Who wants to bet Trump Mama encouraged him to shoot the "foreign" looking kids and helped him plan it? Accessory to murder: gently caress involuntary manslaughter
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
Not wading into the gun conversation but just pointing out that, while everyone is making a big deal about DeSantis talking up reactivating the state guard, it’s kind of a nothingburger. Over half the states (including several blue states) have active state defense forces, and his proposal is to just reactivate FL’s with 300 volunteer personnel. Like I hate the dude but this is far from the biggest reason to worry about Ron DeSantis.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:07
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This is a follow-up bill to one that already passed earlier this year. I need a new job. Every day gives me a new reason to regret becoming a teacher.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
Bugsy posted:They didnt care until their kid started shooting up the school. Why is it the parents responsibility to get their kid into therapy (I doubt they could even find a therapist if they wanted to). The state needs to have ultimate authority over minors, not leave it to randoms.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:10
|
|
|
VanillaGorilla posted:Not wading into the gun conversation but just pointing out that, while everyone is making a big deal about DeSantis talking up reactivating the state guard, it’s kind of a nothingburger. Yea, to me, it seems like it’s just out of spite for the COVID mandate of the National Guard.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:10
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:Lmao Looks like they're coming in. https://twitter.com/jackhealyNYT/status/1466874293388656643
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:13
|
|
|
Thom12255 posted:Looks like they're coming in. I mean they're white. They should take their time. Police can run out and grab them some burgers if they're hungry.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:Lmao Seeing a few posts on the local forum that they left town the night of the shooting fearing for their own safety and are on their way back now. I believe the first part, this town is up in arms and ready to grab the pitchforks and torches. I suspect the "We were always planning on coming back" is a new addition once it became a manhunt. They're trash people and deserve what's coming to them
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
Kind of awkward that the reason they fled in the night without telling anyone (even their own lawyer, apparently) is that they were afraid a crazy person with a gun was going to come to their house.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:12 |
|
|
Jaxyon posted:This is the most useless masturbatory poo poo and people do it in this thread all the time. Speaking of assurances I'm starting to doubt, I'm not too confident the the millions of people who were promised some debt forgiveness are just going to forget or not care next year when the promises start again... https://mobile.twitter.com/josephzeballos/status/1466514219633942528 https://mobile.twitter.com/josephzeballos/status/1466544767727071238 Ruh-roh
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2021 22:16
|
|