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skasion posted:I think at the first draft stage they were basically trying to see how far they could get in 120 pages without adding or cutting anything much. The second draft (the first one Lynch worked on) has pacing much more like the finished movie and in general seems much more realistic about how much movie they were gonna get to make. The Lynch movie was paced great for 2/3 of the movie and then became a clip show for the last section.
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Dec 2, 2021 11:21
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To whom it may concern, theres a Re:view of both Dune movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ClY9yo7-9o And yes, the second half of the first movie is basically a speerun through the plot Also ive watched a nice little vid on Baron Harkonnen and the 4 versions of him (book/lynch/miniseries/2021) that i found interesting because the character is one of the most intrigueing for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzadwQQm8do
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Dec 2, 2021 11:36
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OutsideAngel posted:The Baron actually goes into this in some detail in the novel, when he explains all about how a particular Harkonnen Captain is addicted to the drug music semuta, and how important it is to know a man's cravings and weaknesses and then be able to use them to control him. So the stick is only one facet of Harkonnen control, but they hide hooks in the carrot too. Everyone's also forgetting the whole Feyd subplot in the arena, he wins a fight and the public loves him. Bread and circuses, it is clear they are very controlled and purposeful with how they deal with the masses.
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Dec 2, 2021 16:39
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galagazombie posted:I think that one of the biggest weakness’s of the setting is the just absolute dismissal of the masses. Not in-story by the aristocracy, that makes sense, but by the story and author. The Harkonnen’s can just be so comically murderous to their own people and no one is ever mad enough to revolt or even just not be zealous in their devotion, and you can’t even use self-preservation or “they’ll kill my family” as an excuse because they’ll kill you and your family if you don’t revolt. But Dune mostly just treats people as robots who follow whatever inputs the nobles give them without question. Did you read about the Fremen?
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Dec 2, 2021 16:43
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Like, people do all those things irl and have across history, one of the big points of Dune is that real people don't solely operate on beep boop logic, and loyalty and culture (not even getting into religion and indoctrination) will inspire people to do crazy poo poo. Paul can't stop the Jihad if he tried because that's what the Fremen want to do, and they at best don't take him seriously if he tries to talk them down. It's spelled out pretty clearly when Paul's given an Orange Catholic Bible specifically as a tool of statecraft.threelemmings posted:Everyone's also forgetting the whole Feyd subplot in the arena, he wins a fight and the public loves him. Bread and circuses, it is clear they are very controlled and purposeful with how they deal with the masses. Early on iirc it's mentioned that propaganda videos are being distributed across Arrakis talking up Duke Leto as their saviour. Nobles go to pains to make sure they're presented as admirable figures to their subjects, and half the reason that Leto ends up so feared by the other nobles is because he's actually genuinely good to his people and earns their loyalty, and attracts skilled warriors and talented people to his side.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:27
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Like, people do all those things irl and have across history, one of the big points of Dune is that real people don't solely operate on beep boop logic, and loyalty and culture (not even getting into religion and indoctrination) will inspire people to do crazy poo poo. Paul can't stop the Jihad if he tried because that's what the Fremen want to do, and they at best don't take him seriously if he tries to talk them down. It's spelled out pretty clearly when Paul's given an Orange Catholic Bible specifically as a tool of statecraft. Yueh specifically tells Paul to keep it a secret, and he at one point thinks about how Jessica would surely question his motives whereas he thought it possible to distract Paul from the reasons with sophistry.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:39
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Re: suicide troops, they're probably not devoted ideological fanatics but conditioned soldiers that are "willing" to die in the execution of a task. Conditioning and control is a major plot element, both in its power (mentats) and in the terrifying consequences of its subversion (Yueh).
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Dec 2, 2021 18:41
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galagazombie posted:When the Atreides arrived on Arrakis they mention the Harkonnen’s left a bunch of “Suicide Troops” behind to fight the Atreides and they’ll have to root them out. It’s misdirection by the Baron to make them not realize the scale of the trap. And they say “Suicide Troops” like it’s this proper noun like it’s just something militaries do. I mean, the US had soldiers in Germany whose job was to stay low, keep quiet, and in the event of a Soviet invasion wait for the front-line to pass them by and then group up and start fighting behind the lines. There were also guys who were supposed to arm and detonate atomic demolition munitions that they'd placed in bridges and other critical places. It's not "suicide troops" in the sense that they're kamikazes: there's at least a *hope* that they'll survive carrying out their mission, but the odds are not good.
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Dec 2, 2021 19:46
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got tickets on Sunday for an IMAX showing tomorrow night, and my significant other has agreed to come with me even though she has never seen, read, or heard anything about Dune. i also know better than to geek out to her about it (or anything else really) so she's going in totally fresh will report back with her comments
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Dec 2, 2021 23:27
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galagazombie posted:The Harkonnen’s can just be so comically murderous to their own people and no one is ever mad enough to revolt or even just not be zealous in their devotion ....that we see in the text. Doesn't mean it never happens, they just get crushed. Feudalism.txt but that's not important to the story Dune is telling so why mention it?
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Dec 3, 2021 14:19
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The point that Feyd was beloved by the masses while dueling slaves was really good. It definitely shows that Geidi Prime isn't some sort of Hell World and real people live on it. Ruled by sadists in a feudal fiefdom, but they're real people and their needs are at least mostly being met
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Dec 3, 2021 17:56
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:North Korea people defect and escape from North Korea. and there are resistance movements formed by people who have escaped, working with people inside the country who are actively working against the regime. its an oppressive country but they are not some kind of uniformly obedient people. as far as i remember there is no mention of any kind of resistance like that among the Harkonnen
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Dec 3, 2021 18:53
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Earwicker posted:people defect and escape from North Korea. and there are resistance movements formed by people who have escaped, working with people inside the country who are actively working against the regime. its an oppressive country but they are not some kind of uniformly obedient people. I bet escaping Geidi Prime would be pretty hard. Also my example was more that even in the shittiest situation, you still have believers and NK has only been that way for a few decades. Is it even mentioned how long the Harkonnens have been in charge and running the propaganda machine? Is Geidi Prime even as lovely as NK?
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Dec 3, 2021 18:58
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From reading memoirs of people who have escaped the DPRK, a large part of living there seems to be about holding two contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time: that you are starving, but you are still better off than the rest of the world. Also, their propaganda is really effective at convincing people that their famines are the fault of the US. Highly recommend reading the eyewitness reports from the day Kim Il Sung died. The majority of the population at the time thought he was an immortal god and it broke their brains when he died. Same when KJI died.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:07
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Jewmanji posted:From reading memoirs of people who have escaped the DPRK, a large part of living there seems to be about holding two contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time: that you are starving, but you are still better off than the rest of the world. Also, their propaganda is really effective at convincing people that their famines are the fault of the US. Give me a documentary about the day that Leto II dies.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:15
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Earwicker posted:people defect and escape from North Korea. and there are resistance movements formed by people who have escaped, working with people inside the country who are actively working against the regime. its an oppressive country but they are not some kind of uniformly obedient people. The feyd arena fight has a lot of subtle information about this. You can infer the Baron is careful to balance brutality and bread/circuses
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Dec 3, 2021 20:11
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I bet escaping Geidi Prime would be pretty hard. Also my example was more that even in the shittiest situation, you still have believers and NK has only been that way for a few decades. Is it even mentioned how long the Harkonnens have been in charge and running the propaganda machine? Is Geidi Prime even as lovely as NK? This one dude did it. I think he even ended up getting some job with some other nobles. I wish they could’ve fit someone like that in to the movies but we really needed ALL the establishing shots. The pacing of a modern blockbuster can be BRUUUUUUUTAL
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Dec 3, 2021 20:24
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Establishing shots are the poo poo man I want a whole movie of them
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Dec 3, 2021 20:25
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Na'at posted:This one dude did it. I think he even ended up getting some job with some other nobles. I wish they could’ve fit someone like that in to the movies but we really needed ALL the establishing shots. The pacing of a modern blockbuster can be BRUUUUUUUTAL
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Dec 3, 2021 20:33
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Na'at posted:This one dude did it. I think he even ended up getting some job with some other nobles. I wish they could’ve fit someone like that in to the movies but we really needed ALL the establishing shots. The pacing of a modern blockbuster can be BRUUUUUUUTAL "you fight when the need arises, for instance, if you have been tossed into a fighting pit to be slaughtered for sport. did i ever tell you about the time-" "not now, Gurney."
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Dec 3, 2021 20:34
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I bet our intro to feyd (and our reintro to the harks in general) in dunc 2 will be the arena. Seems like the kind of thing that denis will kick rear end at
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Dec 3, 2021 20:42
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How do you destroy spice storage? Do a bunch of special forces/suicide troops just get high as hell as fast and for as long as they can? E: sign me up
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Dec 3, 2021 20:43
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Ingmar terdman posted:I bet our intro to feyd (and our reintro to the harks in general) in dunc 2 will be the arena. Seems like the kind of thing that denis will kick rear end at i read a rumor that it would open up with Feyd murdering Dunc's helper Lanville, who was supposed to be fleshed out a bit more in the first movie. edit: he got captured in the spice raid mentioned above. or was meant to have been.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:47
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YoursTruly posted:How do you destroy spice storage? Do a bunch of special forces/suicide troops just get high as hell as fast and for as long as they can? The Harkonnens might be able to recover much of it, and would, given its intense value, but now the Baron has to eat spice that Gurney Halleck pissed in. Moral victory.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:51
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Probably the same way you'd destroy any mostly non-perishable foodstuff, like corn. Burning, contamination, scattering such that recovery is beyond feasible, that sort of thing. If you drop a bomb on to a spice silo, sure some of it will be recoverable but a lot of it will be destroyed or rendered useless. Given how valuable it is you could probably go to greater lengths to sift out of the dirt or scrape off of debris all the bits of spice scattered around the storage pen but it's still going to be a major loss.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:02
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YoursTruly posted:How do you destroy spice storage? Do a bunch of special forces/suicide troops just get high as hell as fast and for as long as they can? I am now imagining something like a dust explosion but you get super duper high while setting it up. Then a giant kaboom.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:33
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uber_stoat posted:i read a rumor that it would open up with Feyd murdering Dunc's helper Lanville, who was supposed to be fleshed out a bit more in the first movie. Yeah some part of me feels like we could just open part two on feyd (kind of like how Chani and Jamis bookend part one). I also think of the beginning of two towers that recaps and extends the gandalf + balrog scene
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Dec 3, 2021 21:38
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Counterpointing Feyd being loose with life, and a great fighter, with Paul being a great fighter and being really worried about killing someone is a fairly obvious choice but that doesn't make it bad
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Dec 3, 2021 21:43
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Arena/funeral is a hell of a good contrast to start with, yeah
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Dec 3, 2021 22:01
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Why mess with the proven formula of underpants, steam, and a wind-up box that goes "skreeeeeee"
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Dec 3, 2021 22:06
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Earwicker posted:people defect and escape from North Korea. and there are resistance movements formed by people who have escaped, working with people inside the country who are actively working against the regime. its an oppressive country but they are not some kind of uniformly obedient people. Why would there be in a book not fundamentally about them?
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Dec 3, 2021 23:51
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In literary terms, it would be as a foil to the Atreides to emphasize their positive leadership qualities. But just the offhand stuff the reader gets about the Harkonnens is enough and any more would add to the bloat
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Dec 4, 2021 00:28
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feedmegin posted:Why would there be in a book not fundamentally about them? Soul Dentist posted:In literary terms, it would be as a foil to the Atreides to emphasize their positive leadership qualities. also stirring dissent and fomenting rebellion within an enemies domain is a pretty common strategy, so if there was some kind of anti-Harkonnen resistance, Atreides spies would know about and work with them, and vice versa its been a long time since i read the book so i dont remember the feyd arena scene, i'll check it out. the standout image of Geidi Prime in my mind is from the Lynch film where it's just an evil looking dark sphere.
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Dec 4, 2021 00:33
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I think Lynch's most exciting and most buffoonish choices were in portraying the Harkonnen as cartoonishly, mustache-twirlingly evil. It makes sense in a movie to show why the baddies are bad, but his portrayal violates Herbert's weird magical ability to make the reader take things at face value and rationalize them. It makes for excellent watching and raises the right emotions in the immediate sense, but loses the sinister meaningfulness of the Baron in the middle of (SUCCESSFULLY) plotting to retake Arrakis and murder the Duke.
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Dec 4, 2021 00:52
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Soul Dentist posted:I think Lynch's most exciting and most buffoonish choices were in portraying the Harkonnen as cartoonishly, mustache-twirlingly evil. It makes sense in a movie to show why the baddies are bad, but his portrayal violates Herbert's weird magical ability to make the reader take things at face value and rationalize them. It makes for excellent watching and raises the right emotions in the immediate sense, but loses the sinister meaningfulness of the Baron in the middle of (SUCCESSFULLY) plotting to retake Arrakis and murder the Duke. the baron's first scene in the book is AAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA MY EVIL MINION RECITE TO ME, THE EVIL BARON, MY EVIL PLAN THAT I HAVE CREATED AND THAT I ALREADY KNOW ABOUT i'm not sure you could call him non-cartoonish
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Dec 4, 2021 01:01
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He's definitely over the top but he's way smarter in the book than in basically any adaptation
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Dec 4, 2021 01:06
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Hammy acting is underrated, IMO.
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Dec 4, 2021 01:07
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StashAugustine posted:He's definitely over the top but he's way smarter in the book than in basically any adaptation yeah, granted. he's both more clever than he looks and not quite as clever as he thinks he is.
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Dec 4, 2021 01:14
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YoursTruly posted:How do you destroy spice storage? Do a bunch of special forces/suicide troops just get high as hell as fast and for as long as they can? i have it on good authority that the atreides troops shidded and farded and camed in the harkonnen's spice to ruin it (Herbert, B., True Tales of The Spice Wars, 2010).
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Dec 4, 2021 01:37
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Bubblyblubber posted:i have it on good authority that the atreides troops shidded and farded and camed in the harkonnen's spice to ruin it (Herbert, B., True Tales of The Spice Wars, 2010). Ahh yes, the famed Eau de Halleck method
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Dec 4, 2021 02:46
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