|
Tarnop posted:"because Magic does it" isn't a good reason when, if I want a game with sets that go out of print, I can just play Magic. FAB claimed to be offering something different. You have successfully identified A Scam. Well done.
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 12:37 |
|
|
Did they actually promise their cards would be in print indefinitely?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 17:09
|
|
|
Dr. Clockwork posted:Did they actually promise their cards would be in print indefinitely? They described it as "unlimited" but then when pressed for details revealed that unlimited actually means limited aka exactly the same as every other CCG
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 17:24
|
|
|
Look, I am not some FAB truther or apologist, but y'all seem really surprised that it doesn't make sense for a card game to print a particular set of cards for eternity while they release new ones. I would never have thought that a card game company could release like 3-4 sets a year and keep literally every set they made in the past also available, it just can't happen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
I mean why not? You print in batches, when your supply gets low you re-up. You're not literally printing some amount of every product at all times. Sure you're splitting your warehouse up in to smaller amounts of a larger variety of things but that's hardly existentially unmanageable. The printers don't care whether you're asking them to produce something that'a had 0 to 100 printings before.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
Isn't that what killed TSR? When those initial print runs go unsold, that's when you have a problem. And storing them somewhere is not free.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 20:39
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:Isn't that what killed TSR? When those initial print runs go unsold, that's when you have a problem. And storing them somewhere is not free. It's the future, you can print sets on demand
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
making stuff and then not selling it is one of the primary ways that companies go out of business, yes, but that's only indirectly related to FAB
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
Did nerds on Usenet get upset when MTG Unlimited was only in print for a year back in ‘94?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 22:21
|
|
|
Dr. Clockwork posted:Did nerds on Usenet get upset when MTG Unlimited was only in print for a year back in ‘94? Probably? As best I can tell 'getting upset' is what nerds on Usenet did, I don't think the event in question mattered.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 22:36
|
|
|
My main issue with the oop sets is they weren't even the first set, they announced the third set was oop then a few weeks later the second set went oop. I'm also pretty sure that's where some of the pricier cards are, like skullcap. Overall it's dumb to do it so soon.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 23:17
|
|
|
MTG also has limited-time printings, but they try to make the product available during that time. Like, there might be a short-term shortage of a current set, but it's been a long time since a set went truly out of print (ie, no reprints) much before rotating out of standard. Availability has been spottier lately, but that's not policy on their part, it's failure, apparently due to both the current global production issues and also due to them vastly increasing the size of their product catalog. (And even then, they've been consistently available through WOTC's official Amazon store, they just have not been as consistently available to shops, sigh.) It'd be very unusual for WOTC to just announce out of the blue and on no schedule that a set had "gone out of print;" when they print a set they announce either that it's a supplemental set with a single printing, in which case you know that if you don't get it initially you're getting it at second market rates, or it's a standard-legal normal set, in which case you can be pretty confident they'll go back to print on it if needed throughout a predictable period (roughly a year).
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 23:42
|
|
|
Fantastic Foreskin posted:Probably? As best I can tell 'getting upset' is what nerds on Usenet did, I don't think the event in question mattered. Yes it's what we did. The D&D groups had two hobbies. Trying to figure out how to kill Elminster and going to war with SKR.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2021 23:43
|
|
|
ShaneB posted:Look, I am not some FAB truther or apologist, but y'all seem really surprised that it doesn't make sense for a card game to print a particular set of cards for eternity while they release new ones. The Arkham Horror LCG has over 40 unique products over the five years the game has been running and I can order the first expansion they released in early 2017 from Amazon right now. It can happen. Letting old products go out of print just so they can be reprinted in higher priced reprint packs might be how Magic does it but that doesn't make it the only viable business model for an ongoing card game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 00:02
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:The Arkham Horror LCG has over 40 unique products over the five years the game has been running and I can order the first expansion they released in early 2017 from Amazon right now. It can happen. LCG's are a totally different distribution model though arent they? You buy one product and always get all the cards you need from that particular set/expansion instead of needing to buy a bunch of random boosters to maybe get the card you were hoping for from the set. It seems like printing tons of randomized packs may be a little more risky.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 04:36
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:The Arkham Horror LCG has over 40 unique products over the five years the game has been running and I can order the first expansion they released in early 2017 from Amazon right now. It can happen. Point to a single competitive 1v1 LCG that's still in print. I love the hell out of my complete Netrunner collection, but it just didn't work as a long-term model. Not even Keyforge survived.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 04:53
|
|
|
Bob Quixote posted:LCG's are a totally different distribution model though arent they? You buy one product and always get all the cards you need from that particular set/expansion instead of needing to buy a bunch of random boosters to maybe get the card you were hoping for from the set. The post I replied to said card games that printed multiple new sets a year. But even if we're only talking about random booster CCGs, the secondary market for singles along with the state of the competitive meta and sales of intro products like their Blitz decks gives LSS a ton of information about demand for specific cards and expected value for sets. Arguably way more information than FFG have about remaining demand for Arkham expansions, since there's no singles market for most of the cards in a mythos pack. With their current model, at some point they're going to have to work out which cards need reprints and put these into supplemental sets, so the risk of printing cards no one wants already exists there. They could even require a certain threshold of orders from distributors or retailers to trigger another print run, and offset logistical costs by rolling it into printings of the newest set (eg they order 10,000 boxes of their newest set and 1000 boxes of an old set and have them all shipped to distributors in one go). If a card manufacturer is set up to handle the complexities of printing, collating and packing randomised boosters then they can certainly cope with switching to a different set of digital files part way through a print run.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 05:00
|
|
|
Codeacious posted:Point to a single competitive 1v1 LCG that's still in print. We have no idea why FFG didn't renew the license for Netrunner. We don't even know if they were offered the option to renew it. e: I point to Ashes Rise of the Phoenixborn
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 05:03
|
|
|
The problem with LCGs is that once you have like the 'complete set' of like 3x per card, there is no fukken other reason to have more. It makes draft things completely pointless, due to the lack of rarity of cards. Or like sealed as a format or something. But like, the moment you copy and paste a deck list into Jinteki.net for free, the even artificial forced scarcity of online versions of card games will seem loving ridiculous. Plus, gently caress it. Proxy everything. gently caress rarities. Let poo poo be just for people who want to pointlessly bling out their poo poo. EDIT - *COMPETITIVE LCGs. Co-op model is amazing, especially how Arkham is setup, with its XP system of upgradable cards, or also how the packs themselves only have like 10% of new player cards, and how scenario cards can be completely game breaking but only last for that expansion/pack. Netrunner having 20 new player cards per pack coming out like every month meant... a lot of lovely cards. Especially with no rarity, once a card is a straight upgrade of another card, there was no reason to run the old one. jeeves fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Dec 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 06:58
|
|
|
Lmao if your example is FFGs incredible track record of keeping their LCGs in print and easily available at all times. At no point this year have I been able to stock all 6 mythos packs of a given cycle at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 09:22
|
|
|
Codeacious posted:Point to a single competitive 1v1 LCG that's still in print.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 09:30
|
|
|
jeeves posted:Netrunner having 20 new player cards per pack coming out like every month meant... a lot of lovely cards. Especially with no rarity, once a card is a straight upgrade of another card, there was no reason to run the old one. At the competitive level, this happens with CCGs, too. I love tournaments, but I hate spending hundreds or thousands (depending on the game) to get the chase rares I need for a chance at not losing immediately. And no one is running commons/uncommons when there is a rare (even chase rare) that is an obvious upgdrade. At least with LCGs, the cost of entry is much better. 90s Cringe Rock posted:Keyforge died in a uniquely funny way though, it's not quite the same. How did Keyforge die? I assumed it was typical pandemic shenanigans.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 10:01
|
|
|
Didn't keyforge die because someone hosed over their unique deck name table?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 10:15
|
|
|
They lost the algorithm which generates new decks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 10:53
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:We have no idea why FFG didn't renew the license for Netrunner. We don't even know if they were offered the option to renew it. I thought FFG basically said that it wasn't their choice to not continue, whether WOTC jacked up the price or simply said no. Of course, that could be a saving face maneuver, but since they did the revised core so recently before the end, that would seem odd.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 10:53
|
|
|
They literally can't print new product, even for existing sets. A combination of ransomware and having fired the guy who built it the first time, allegedly? The alternative explanation is that it was getting harder to work with over time, taking longer to generate valid decks, or something. I haven't checked lately and I don't think they've said what actually happened.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 10:54
|
|
|
Dr. Clockwork posted:Lmao if your example is FFGs incredible track record of keeping their LCGs in print and easily available at all times. At no point this year have I been able to stock all 6 mythos packs of a given cycle at the same time. Sure, just keep moving those goalposts. The point is that you know they will be reprinted. What point are you even trying to make here? Because FFG, a company that has been gutted by the hedge fund that owns its parent company after losing a bunch of high value licenses, can only reprint its expansions a couple of times a year, this means its impossible for LSS to reprint old sets of FAB on a similarly regular schedule? I'd happily take biannual reprints of old Magic sets over the crapshoot of hoping cards I want get reprinted in a Masters set that might never come and hoping they don't get upshifted in rarity. Tarnop fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Dec 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 15:11
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:How did Keyforge die? I assumed it was typical pandemic shenanigans. They broke their ability to make decks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 15:21
|
|
|
90s Cringe Rock posted:They lost the algorithm which generates new decks. HootTheOwl posted:https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/keyforge-fantasy-flight-games-hiatus/  Tarnop posted:e: I point to Ashes Rise of the Phoenixborn  Ashes has a competitive scene?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:
They released an organised play kit for Ashes Reborn on 10th October this year. Sadly my LGS hasn't yet reopened since the pandemic; they lost their premises and are currently relocating. Hopefully they will be running some events!
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
Ashes is a funny example to point to when it was stone dead for a while and even before that a lot of packs were impossible to find if you didn't get them the day they dropped, to the point where it destroyed my local scene that was sort of getting off the ground.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 17:41
|
|
|
It is a competitive 1v1 LCG that's still in print, which is what the person I was replying to asked for an example of. I assumed by competitive they meant as opposed to cooperative, since my previous example was Arkham Horror. It's possible that they meant a game with a thriving competitive scene, but that's been difficult for a lot of games to sustain given the events of the last couple of years.
Tarnop fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Dec 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 17:54
|
|
|
It is pretty neat to see Netrunner continue via the fan-run NISEI project. With the constant drive for corporate profit of constant releases out of the picture, they can do a much slower release of a smaller card pool at once. Less chaff cards, mostly due to lack of “we need 20 cards per pack per month to be released regardless of if only 1 is good.” I know not having corporate backing and only like one release a year has kind of killed Netrunner from most competitive players’ minds, but what NISEI is doing has been pretty cool so far, in my opinion. Much like the new release model for Arkham, I’d much rather just buy it all at once for a year than deal with small packs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 23:25
|
|
|
jeeves posted:Much like the new release model for Arkham, I’d much rather just buy it all at once for a year than deal with small packs. Once a year might be a little meager to keep the interest up. Magic probably has the right idea with sets every 3-4 months... at least, back in the before times when you actually had a loving break between product announcements and releases. Who knows, maybe in the world of instant gratification and social media that might just be outmoded.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 23:47
|
|
|
Companies have made games for decades, in which demand determines their willingness to create more supply, and this is a functional model for making money. There's a neverending demand for Monopoly sets, and so monopoly money and boardwalk cards have never gone out of print. There's no long-term global shortage of printers capable of printing things on paper or whatever. What restricts supply of CCGs (and LCGs) is company decisions to restrict that supply. Those decisions may be made in response to falling demand; TSR's classic mistake wasn't printing lots of books, it was printing lots of books that nobody wanted, and refusing to bother to find out what people wanted before printing far too many books. And the non-collectible nature of most games is not itself a reason to let the game go out of print. Dominion has more or less been in continuous print, and new product continues to sell, because there are still customers who want it and Rio Grande has seen fit to meet that demand with ever more printings of the same cards. Releasing new expansions for Dominion actually helps to keep the older expansions in print too, because "this game is still supported with new product" is a selling point for the base game, and older expansions are still viable within the current game. I assume Rio Grande has not run into huge card-printing problems that forced them to abandon most of their expansions after a while. All expansions are still in print, either in their original form or as a 2nd edition reprint (the base game, and Intrigue, the first expansion set). There's plenty of other examples. Bicycle endlessly prints the same bridge deck, Uno is still in print, the world does not seem to have run out of people who still want to buy tarot cards, etc. CCG/LCG card obsolescence are all entirely created by either a falloff of demand, intentional strategies for creating scarcity/rarity, or business incompetence; not printing capacity, or some inherent restriction in the card-printing industry. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Dec 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 00:17
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:Once a year might be a little meager to keep the interest up. Magic probably has the right idea with sets every 3-4 months... at least, back in the before times when you actually had a loving break between product announcements and releases. Who knows, maybe in the world of instant gratification and social media that might just be outmoded. Plus that month or so after NISEI's recent March release when interest was up, oh man, it was :chefkiss: It felt almost like FFG-era times. As for Magic, I think WOTC is now up to 5 major releases a year, not counting the 'modern masters' bullshit or the extreme lol of their 45+ "Secret Lair" stuff, including the "INFINITE WORLDS!" Walking Dead, Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, etc cash ins. Magic certainly has 'the right idea' when it comes to milking their fanbase out of every last cent, but I don't think their idea is really the best example to use. jeeves fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Dec 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 01:04
|
|
|
Oh laff, I didn't notice that this company announced another of their expansions is now "out of print" as well, the Welcome to Rathe set. They definitely didn't do a good job of explaining how "unlimited" was meant to work, especially since apparently a lot class cards only come from certain expansions?
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
jeeves posted:Oh laff, I didn't notice that this company announced another of their expansions is now "out of print" as well, the Welcome to Rathe set. I'm glad I found this thread before I dumped a bunch of money into this game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 16:59
|
|
|
The sets that have gone out of print haven't spiked though, as everyone knows there will be reprints in future sets. Edit: I really do want to get this straight, though... you all thought this would effectively be a collectible trading card game where every card was just in-print for eternity? That is a very different model of game. ShaneB fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Dec 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 18:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 12:37 |
|
|
The price spikes haven't really happened because the total player base size is extremely small and the rarity system is garbage. Unlimited really just means "indeterminate total print run to end at some point in time" which is pretty much every TCG ever, but reprinting Arcanite Skullcap at legendary rarity again doesn't solve the problem at all, especially when it's in a supplementary set. In my personal view, putting 3/5 sets out of print was a last minute ditch to boost the secondary market, and the game is effectively dead and no one will care about it any more by this time next year.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 18:18
|
|
