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NewMars posted:You know this reminds me. What do we do if we want to change our vote? as of now you can edit already-submitted responses
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Dec 5, 2021 21:36
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Hooray! I urge people who maybe haven't thought about it to please reconsider the citizen services act. A mandatory draft just does not seem like a good idea.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:37
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TDS posted:I must urge all my fellow representatives to consider voting against A-112. Have we not just shattered the shackles of capitalism, which forced workers to work under the double threat of starvation and homelessness? Why then are we so eager to add new shackles to the workers of the world? I will admit, I AM curious about the specifics of this program. Are participants compensated in any way for their service? What's the actual punishment for noncompliance? I believe the idea here can be useful for giving young people real-world experience and a sense of participation in their community and the Comintern as a whole, but I can also see it ranging from a shared bonding experience to a pain in the rear end everyone resents all the way to forced labor camps. There's a degree of nuance needed here.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:44
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Actually wait: is it even mandatory? There's nothing in the body of the act that says it is. This is a little vague...
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Dec 5, 2021 22:29
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NewMars posted:Actually wait: is it even mandatory? There's nothing in the body of the act that says it is. This is a little vague... It's described as 'Inspired by the Draft but with a civilian focus' so I'd say yes.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:39
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Proxy voting for whatever makes our fully automated space communism more luxurious and or gay
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Dec 5, 2021 22:42
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To clarify A-112: Choosing the civilian option means CI will find you a decent actually valuable to the community job, usually entry-level. If the person in question have requests for a specific area because they're interested in making a career there we will do our best to try and accommodate this, same as we're gonna try our best to accommodate mental/physical restrictions. The job will have a sort of mentor/apprenticeship setup since this'll likely be their first proper job, with a focus on teaching good work ethics and habits, as well as what their rights and expectations are, how unions actually work in the workplace, etc etc. This is NOT volunteer work, they'll be expected to put in a decent day's effort and will be rewarded for their labor, same as everyone else. The bootcamp and mobile work force will be more like today's conscription, less daily wage but food, lodging and essentials will be provided for you.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:55
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If it is such a good deal, then why force people into it? And that doesn't answer the question of what happens to people who refuse, do they get jailed for life until they relent?
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Dec 6, 2021 00:00
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TDS posted:If it is such a good deal, then why force people into it? And that doesn't answer the question of what happens to people who refuse, do they get jailed for life until they relent? To be fair, "If it's for their own best interest, why do you need to make them do it" is kind of a complicated question...
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Dec 6, 2021 00:26
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I just want to say that no polity in Australasia has had conscription since the era of the Road Wars, with the exception of the Sydney Labour State and their disaster response commission. Even then, that's under fairly limited circumstances. Attempting to reintroduce it will not be popular and we'd hardly be alone in that.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:40
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There's also the issue with people who say they would be unable to take part because of disability or other similar reasons. Unless you accept those refusals at face value, the program falls into the trap of having to judge who's Disabled Enough to warrant not being conscripted and that is problematic for many obvious reasons. I think this plan would work a lot better if it was a program set up for voluntary enrollment for people interested in work or military experience. Conscription is not something we should be putting in place during peacetime.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:51
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Comrades, its time to introduce Social Credit Scores.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:56
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TDS posted:If it is such a good deal, then why force people into it? And that doesn't answer the question of what happens to people who refuse, do they get jailed for life until they relent? Gulag.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:57
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TDS posted:If it is such a good deal, then why force people into it? And that doesn't answer the question of what happens to people who refuse, do they get jailed for life until they relent? I dunno, what do we do with people who refuse to do anything? zanni posted:There's also the issue with people who say they would be unable to take part because of disability or other similar reasons. As mentioned above, they'll try and accommodate disabilities if possible. If they can't work at all then presumably they're in the care of the local mental/physical health services?
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Dec 6, 2021 02:09
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Antilles posted:As mentioned above, they'll try and accommodate disabilities if possible. If they can't work at all then presumably they're in the care of the local mental/physical health services? I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on this because this isn't really the place for it but that's not an assumption you can or should make IRL, let alone in a world that is still not fully recovered from a majorly destabilizing war VideoWitch fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 04:23
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VideoWitch posted:I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on this because this isn't really the place for it but that's not an assumption you can or should make IRL, let alone in a world that is still not fully recovered from a majorly destabilizing war Luckily IG it looks like we're setting up a ministry of health that should cover this.
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Dec 6, 2021 07:18
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We've gotten trains, which as far as I understand it is the Goon Communism End-Game, so I'm not sure why you're so insistent about this.
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Dec 6, 2021 08:02
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Volmarias posted:We've gotten trains, which as far as I understand it is the Goon Communism End-Game, so I'm not sure why you're so insistent about this. SPACE Trains no less
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Dec 6, 2021 09:51
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I thought the anti-nuke bill would pass easily? Is there anything I'm not aware? It says we're gonna disarm along with every other capitalist power and redirect it to space defense until we've figured out a better way to defend space.
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Dec 6, 2021 14:14
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Polgas posted:I thought the anti-nuke bill would pass easily? Is there anything I'm not aware? It says we're gonna disarm along with every other capitalist power and redirect it to space defense until we've figured out a better way to defend space. In what universe do the capitalist powers disarm because cominterp says so? GLADIO just demonstrated that nuclear devices still work as a means of terror and destruction. We'll be able to dictate disarmament unilaterally and destroy the capitalists for good as long as we keep them out of space eventually, but not yet.
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Dec 6, 2021 15:00
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Polgas posted:I thought the anti-nuke bill would pass easily? Is there anything I'm not aware? It says we're gonna disarm along with every other capitalist power and redirect it to space defense until we've figured out a better way to defend space. To me it's a bit metagamey, where we lose access to an entire branch of weapons if we pass the law. If it was worded more like 'ban production, storage and use on Earth' I wouldn't mind it, maybe throw in a 'absolute ban on usage on other life-bearing worlds, ban on using it on barren worlds near civilian settlements' for good measure. Plus I find point 4 pretty vague, sure not having the blueprints and technical specs of Fat Man out on the interweb is one thing, but banning everything that could lead to developing nuclear weaponry sounds like it'd cover a pretty wide umbrella.
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Dec 6, 2021 15:53
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Nukes are useful  Yeah there's just a teeny bit of cultural trauma surrounding them but in practical terms there's still nothing that can fill their role, and we can't afford to be giving them up when the universe is demonstrably full of hostile aliens that visited the solar system in the very recent past. Also point 4 (probably unintentionally but nonetheless) outlaws nuclear reactors and physics textbooks.
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Dec 6, 2021 18:36
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Besides, with a bit of effort it's only a matter of time before we invent something WAY more devastating and outlawing nukes looks like outlawing dynamite 
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Dec 6, 2021 18:46
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Yeah, now that I look at it, point 4 is kind of insane. It's a bit crazy to have a bill that seems to outlaw nuclear reactors for a civilization where they literally power everything.
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Dec 6, 2021 22:17
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ON THE STATE OF ISRAEL Israel was ascendant at the time the Great Revolutionary War broke out, having just recently emerged victorious in the so-called "Six-Day War". Their territory had expanded significantly, and their military was at the height of its power. When the War erupted, it spread to the Middle East almost immediately, with our own allies in the region, led by Nasser in Egypt, attempting to undo the results of this conflict. The Israelis fought a holding action in the hopes that the US and its allies could come stabilize the situation there after the war in Europe was won. This of course did not happen, and the Israelis steadily lost territory on all fronts, despite putting up stiff resistance and inflicting disproportionate casualties. As it seemed the fighting was turning against them, they did something unexpected - they abandoned all of the territory taken in the 1967 war, declared a unilateral ceasefire, and then, within sight of Egyptian lines, conducted a test detonation of a nuclear device. While we have no definitive proof, the assumption is that the weapon, or the technology to build it, was given to them by the Americans. In addition to de facto creating a Palestinian state (the PLO quickly took over control of much of the land they abandoned), this also gave the Israelis a defensible position, with much of their military intact, and a nuclear deterrent. While elements in the Arab League wanted to continue the war anyway, the Comintern was in no position to provide any support, with tactical nuclear exchanges in Europe rapidly escalating and a serious fear of a possible full exchange in the near future. In the end, it stalled out, and the League fell into infighting between its left-leaning and right-leaning factions. It is in this infighting that Israel found a path to its survival. Israel spent the early postwar period effectively hiring out its entire economy to Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and, ironically, also ended up cultivating trade relations with Jordan, its former enemy, who came to see them as an ally of convenience in the fight against the Arab left. Internally, the country remained on a war footing, and since 1970 Israel has been de facto governed as a military junta; though the civilian government still exists and nominally remains the supreme authority, in practice the IDF controls the state of Israel. The collapse of the Arab League, instigated by the Comintern by accident, has placed Israel on a path towards collapse. The number of states willing to trade with them is dwindling, and their economy is precarious. A repressive state security apparatus retains tight control, and banned groups such as the Israeli Communist Party and the Black Panthers are kept well underground (the Israeli Communist Party is technically a Comintern member but has not actually sent a representative to the body since being admitted, not for lack of trying either), but their military's equipment is dated and their ability to either contain a full-scale domestic uprising or repel an invasion is doubtful. Their nuclear arsenal is the one ace remaining in their deck. At this point, our estimates are that they have at least one dozen warheads in the 100+ kiloton range, and that they can deliver them via truck-launched IRBM (propelled by sorium-liquid oxygen rockets, much like your own earliest TNE engine designs) virtually anywhere in the Middle East, North Africa, Europe, or West Asia. Neutralizing this arsenal will be necessary if any permanent solution to the Israeli issue is to be achieved.
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Dec 7, 2021 09:35
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Crazycryodude posted:Also point 4 (probably unintentionally but nonetheless) outlaws nuclear reactors and physics textbooks. NewMars posted:Yeah, now that I look at it, point 4 is kind of insane. It's a bit crazy to have a bill that seems to outlaw nuclear reactors for a civilization where they literally power everything. quote:4- Agreement to remove the ability and knowledge of nuclear arms production once said elimination is complete There's nothing about outlawing nuclear reactors for power or anything of the sort. We're talking about the actual creation of nuclear ARMS, the firing devices, the processes for weapons-grade enrichment, the production infrastructure currently in place for continued nuclear weapon creation. The bill aims to disarm and dismantle existing nuclear weapon stockpiles and prevent any polity in the future from creating their own post-disarmament. That's it. Nothing past that. i really wish i didnt have to keep clarifying my proposals bc people are wildly misinterpreting them. why in the poo poo would i be banning nuclear power or god drat textbooks in a nuclear disarmament bill
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Dec 7, 2021 10:06
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zanni posted:i really wish i didnt have to keep clarifying my proposals bc people are wildly misinterpreting them. why in the poo poo would i be banning nuclear power or god drat textbooks in a nuclear disarmament bill Hey, apparently "your high school career counselor can actually get you a job in a fire station when you say you wanna be a fireman" can easily be interpreted as "burly men kick in doors to drag 18-year olds away in chains to slave away in the nearest salt mine for a year", it's just how things go in this thread sometimes.
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Dec 7, 2021 10:24
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The problem with the citizen service bill is that the comintern is a rather weak government, still a cooperative alliance more than anything else. (Although we're approaching confederation status quickly) With that in mind, the establishment of a mandatory service department just isn't a feasible move politically at a time when many of the comintern's nations are still divided on the issue of internal interference. What's more, the idea of mandatory service is that.. well, it's mandatory. What do you do when people don't want to do it? The answer to the question isn't in the text of the bill and left up to the thread it's less than.. encouraging. Remember that at it's core the comintern still has many vanguard communist nations for which "imprisonment" or forcing them to do it, really is a politically viable option. As for the nuclear bill by Zanni, yeah, I'll agree that was a misinterpretation, sorry.
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Dec 7, 2021 10:56
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NewMars posted:The problem with the citizen service bill is that the comintern is a rather weak government, still a cooperative alliance more than anything else. (Although we're approaching confederation status quickly) With that in mind, the establishment of a mandatory service department just isn't a feasible move politically at a time when many of the comintern's nations are still divided on the issue of internal interference. On the one had CI being a relatively weak government is a fair point, on the other that hasn't stopped us from proposing and implementing some wild and fair-reaching stuff so far. Like the Bill of Rights we passed last year is a way bigger deal when it comes to internal interference than this stuff. As for people who don't want to do it, well, I'm serious about the question earlier about what happens today to people who don't want to do anything? If you want to work, want to be a soldier, or want a gap year adventure there's no problem. If you're too sick to do any of the above, the bill of rights + ministry of health should have you covered. If you want to sit in a dank basement smoking weed for a year, what changes? Would these vangardist nations really go "we were gonna let you sit and smoke weed in peace before, but now it's off to the gulags"?
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Dec 7, 2021 12:19
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Antilles posted:On the one had CI being a relatively weak government is a fair point, on the other that hasn't stopped us from proposing and implementing some wild and fair-reaching stuff so far. Like the Bill of Rights we passed last year is a way bigger deal when it comes to internal interference than this stuff. No, but the comintern might be legally obligated to force the issue based on the text of the act: if you don't want something to be enforced with some kind of penalty for refusal, you have to make clear that it's legally voluntary.
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Dec 7, 2021 12:43
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zanni posted:There's nothing about outlawing nuclear reactors for power or anything of the sort. We're talking about the actual creation of nuclear ARMS, the firing devices, the processes for weapons-grade enrichment, the production infrastructure currently in place for continued nuclear weapon creation. The bill aims to disarm and dismantle existing nuclear weapon stockpiles and prevent any polity in the future from creating their own post-disarmament. That's it. Nothing past that. All the knowledge you need to build a nuclear bomb can be found in a highschool level physics textbook. A civilian nuclear power program with breeders to reprocess waste into fuel for purely peaceful purposes is nonetheless indistinguishable from a weapons-grade plutonium production chain. I did say it was probably unintentional, but as-written the law can easily be read to outlaw a whole bunch of things that we shouldn't outlaw. I don't think you MEANT it to read like that but such is life in legislative LP's. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 13:43
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NewMars posted:No, but the comintern might be legally obligated to force the issue based on the text of the act: if you don't want something to be enforced with some kind of penalty for refusal, you have to make clear that it's legally voluntary. Honestly "what to do with people who won't contribute to the great communist project" or w/e is a bit outside the scope of this proposal. When the Bill of Rights takes effect the old capitalist standby's of 'homelessness and starvation' are off the table, and polities in the CI who resort to imprisonment and forced labor like that are a separate if related issue that'll need to be tackled in some kind of big 'crime and punishment' proposal. For now just assume any penalty for non-compliance, if any, are set by the local community/polity.
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Dec 7, 2021 14:08
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If you call something 'The Draft but with a Civilian Focus' you can't act surprised when people don't see it as happy fun time down at summer camp. Because guess what, the draft is anything but voluntarily. If your intent really was to just give people an optional chance to get some job experience, then write the bill like that. Don't blame people for reading and interpreting it as written.
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Dec 7, 2021 16:11
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People should stop getting offended at their fellow Congress members looking at their proposed legislation and pointing out the vague language, unintended harmful interpretations and exploitable loopholes. Bad faith actors exist even in our communist utopia, and if we can find all these weird edge cases as a thought exercise, so can they, and in a court of law it may protect them from the consequences of their heinous actions because people can't read lawmakers' minds and laws are open to interpretation. Stop backpedaling and calling people pedantic and amend your proposals to have less glaring flaws, the spirit is well meaning but the letter is sloppy.
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Dec 7, 2021 16:37
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TDS posted:If you call something 'The Draft but with a Civilian Focus' you can't act surprised when people don't see it as happy fun time down at summer camp. Because guess what, the draft is anything but voluntarily. If your intent really was to just give people an optional chance to get some job experience, then write the bill like that. Don't blame people for reading and interpreting it as written. No it's supposed to be a draft, a new type of national service (well, international service... or maybe we aim high and go straight for interplanetary service?) if you will. Making it volunteer-based would render the military and mixed offers completely useless (who'd volunteer for a prep-year of bootcamp over going straight into the military?) and even the civilian part would get hopelessly watered down. It'd be about as effective as yearly job fairs trying to entice young people towards in-demand careers, which is some weak rear end boring poo poo. Asterite34 posted:People should stop getting offended at their fellow Congress members looking at their proposed legislation and pointing out the vague language, unintended harmful interpretations and exploitable loopholes. Bad faith actors exist even in our communist utopia, and if we can find all these weird edge cases as a thought exercise, so can they, and in a court of law it may protect them from the consequences of their heinous actions because people can't read lawmakers' minds and laws are open to interpretation. Oh sure, I'll make sure to have my next proposals looked over by a lawyer first, would an A4 page per proposal densely slathered in legalese be enough do you think? Or perhaps should we assume the CI have lawyers, experts and legal authors competent enough to take the spirit of our suggestions and make them into laws that don't accidentally make it legal for glassy-eyed psychos to exterminate disabled people by sending them to forced-labor camps?
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Dec 7, 2021 20:31
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Mister Bates posted:Their nuclear arsenal is the one ace remaining in their deck. At this point, our estimates are that they have at least one dozen warheads in the 100+ kiloton range, and that they can deliver them via truck-launched IRBM (propelled by sorium-liquid oxygen rockets, much like your own earliest TNE engine designs) virtually anywhere in the Middle East, North Africa, Europe, or West Asia. Neutralizing this arsenal will be necessary if any permanent solution to the Israeli issue is to be achieved. Oh hey, it's Space North Korea. The problem is that this arsenal is, as far as they're concerned, the only thing still keeping them alive. The real problem is finding a way to convince them that it's safe to do this, when their entire history is mired in conflict for ethnic / religious reasons. Any treaty with their neighbors isn't worth the paper it's been signed on as far as they're concerned, so they need a means of deterrence that doesn't involve relying on others. Much like with actual DPRK, turns out the solution here isn't easy. We could potentially use our weapons, including a railgun spacecraft to pre-emptively strike at their launchers. Our FESTER equipment would probably let us pinpoint those targets with ease. A pre-emptive strike opens up a whole can of worms that not unjustly places us in the position of bully at best, imperialist at worst. I suspect we might be able to strong arm them into accepting "peacekeeping" troops to guarantee their existence, but that's a whole other can of worms.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:36
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bullying settler-colonial states ruled by a military junta is good, actually
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Dec 7, 2021 20:40
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Yeah, if we can railgun their nukes from orbit and then take them down with conventional warfare we should.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:45
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Once we have star wars up and running we should give them an ultimatum.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:54
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I know the Isreali Communist Party is non/anti zionist, but what is there stance on the Palestine issue? Also Haiti is formally requesting that any solution to Israel includes the right for a Jewish homeland/self governing polity. While Israel has become a colonial-settler state the Jewish people were a nationless people, and it would be hypocritical of us to take that away from them.
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Dec 7, 2021 21:16
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